Misconceptions and wei qi

[Guest guest]

All,

 

Interesting comment, Bob, regarding huang qi being a qi regulator. I have

not heard that before, but somehow am not surprised.

said: " I agree with your examples. I meant that comment solely in the

short term context of a cold invasion leading to immediate wei qi vacuity. "

 

Is there any such thing as " wei qi vacuity " or is it not merely a vacuity of

lung (and spleen) qi? If so, then can there be an " immediate wei qi

vacuity " ? I would be interested to hear your rationale on this, with

literature citing, please.

 

said about the following: " while the idea of wei qi stagnation may not

be " textbook " per

se, I think it is implicit, both in ma huang tang pattern and the phlegm

accumulation I describe. "

 

> (Thomas)However, the wei qi did not stagnate in the MHT patient until the

cold attack. It > is only the cold attacking from the exterior that caused

the log jam, right?

 

> (Todd) I was not referring to an MHT pattern when I made this comment, but

just a more

> general predisposition to cold. However I think you are correct about MHT

pattern

 

I'm confused, Todd. According to your statement above you specifically made

reference to MHT pattern, but then denied saying so. Please clarify this for

me, what did you mean. A MHT pattern is a external cold evil attacking the

human organism. If this is not what you mean then please define a " general

predisposition to cold " and differentiate that from MHT pattern.

said: " I would use this rx in a spleen xu, wei qi patient with phlegm

with the addition of er chen tang, but not by itself. "

 

I am unfamiliar with this diagnosis, " spleen xu, wei qi patient with

phlegm " , could you please explain it.

said: " I don't think sheng jiang is considered that strong for phlegm,

but it definitely helps. "

 

Sheng jiang is the herb that is used in pao zhi to treat ban xia when

preparing ban xia for the treatment of phlegm. It is actually sheng jiang

zhi (the juice) but never-the-less considered the same herb under the

heading for sheng jiang in Ten Lectures....Jiao Shu-De. On page 29 of said

text under sheng jiang it is said to " open phlegm " (I'm unclear as to what

exactly this means, perhaps someone can elucidate further to clarify this)

and under sheng jiang zhi " transform phlegm " for which the dosage is very

low in the example given (six to seven drops divided in half with 1 liang

zhu li zhi). A standard dose of sheng jiang (1-3 qian) will yield 3-10 drops

or more of sheng jiang zhi, therefore I submit that in fact sheng jiang is

actually quite good for the treatment of phlegm. Finally, in one of my

favorite books published by Blue Poppy (thanks Bob), The Heart Transmission

of Medicine by Liu Yi-ren on page 94 the author says, " If phlegm is

generated by cold, ..... To treat this, use Jiang (Rhizoma Zingiberis)

...... "

said: " Anyway, I was not originally talking about using YPFS in those

who get frequent colds, but rather for healthy folks who get frequent

EXPOSURE to those with colds. "

 

Frankly, there are not many folks out there who fall into your category,

" healthy folks " . Let's face it we as a culture are all stressed out and

fatigued. Whether this is because of overwork, diet, social/family/whatever

problems, lack of exercise and fresh air, environmental toxins, etc, is all

beside the point. We as a culture are coming from a place of repletion to a

place of vacuity, basic yin/yang theory at work, right before our eyes.

said: " for whatever a personal anecdote is worth, I get sore throat and

stuffy nose and irritability from taking YPFS. "

 

I think you might find this is more a matter of dosage..........try taking

small amounts, say a half or quarter dose.

said: " Even if we can debate the supplementation issue, what about the

warming and ascending in a patient even if their heat comes from

depression. " and " Ironically, perhaps the misconceptions are mine. but

again, what about the relatively healthy person with slight depressive heat

and phlegm that don't manifest as any chronic sysmptoms that bother the

patient. Is this person benfited by taking YPFS? "

 

Yes, I think the dosage matters in this case, though I have seen and heard

of the use of standard dosing with patients such as this without

ill-effects. Are you using sheng huang qi or huang qi zhi? Try using sheng

huang qi if you are using huang qi zhi. Sheng huang qi does disinhibit the

urine and I would like to put forth is not really warming but in fact may be

slightly cooling. This may be heresy but remember sheng huang qi action to

expel pus. I know it is supposed to be used only for patients with qi

vacuity, blah, blah, blah, but how do you explain why it works for this with

patients with repletion and stagnation? Just some food for thought :-}

 

 

thomas

 

 

Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture

acupuncture and herbal information

 

 

 

" Knowing nothing, you will be aware of everything. "

Lao Tzu

[Guest guest]

, " " @e...>

wrote:

 

>

> Is there any such thing as " wei qi vacuity " or is it not merely a vacuity of

> lung (and spleen) qi? If so, then can there be an " immediate wei qi

> vacuity " ? I would be interested to hear your rationale on this, with

> literature citing, please.

 

 

My terminology may be inaccurate. In bensky on YPFS, he says this rx is for

deficiency of the exterior with weak and unstable protective qi. I assumed weak

protective qi is wei qi xu. a lack of wei qi. He also gives the tongue and

pulse signs

of pale white and floating deficient, yet I seem to get the idea that some are

saying

this rx is OK for those with red tongues with yellow coats and fast, wiry

pulses. As

for immediate wei qi vacuity, I was asking for a citation myself, not stating a

position.

Remember I do NOT think wei qi vacuity is the sole cause of exterior invasion.

 

 

> > (Thomas)However, the wei qi did not stagnate in the MHT patient until the

> cold attack. It > is only the cold attacking from the exterior that caused

> the log jam, right?

>

> > (Todd) I was not referring to an MHT pattern when I made this comment, but

> just a more

> > general predisposition to cold. However I think you are correct about MHT

> pattern

>

> I'm confused, Todd. According to your statement above you specifically made

> reference to MHT pattern,

 

 

that is not my quote. my comment only referred to wei qi stagnating. you took

someone else's quote in reply to me and applied to me. Please reread the thread

to

determine who your message is actually addressed to.

 

 

> ..... "

>

said: " Anyway, I was not originally talking about using YPFS in those

> who get frequent colds, but rather for healthy folks who get frequent

> EXPOSURE to those with colds. "

>

> Frankly, there are not many folks out there who fall into your category,

> " healthy folks " . Let's face it we as a culture are all stressed out and

> fatigued.

 

but not all qi xu. there are plenty of young folks who are not very

deficient,if at all.

You may feel otherwise, but perhaps we see different patients. Young healthy

folks

do not make up much of a typical general practice outside the schools, I see

lots of

students. I can't say much more on this except to say that I think you are

categorically incorrect to say that my patients could benefit from YPFS. It is

most

definitely not the case at any dose.

 

said: " for whatever a personal anecdote is worth, I get sore throat and

> stuffy nose and irritability from taking YPFS. "

>

> I think you might find this is more a matter of dosage..........try taking

> small amounts, say a half or quarter dose.

 

Thomas, with all due respect, dosage is a foremost issue on my mind and I have

played around with dosage of this rx with many patients. I do not like its

effects in

myself or my patient load. Is it so hard to accept that our experiences are

different

and the observations you made are biased by this, as are mine. When we began to

treat HIV in portland with subhuti, we quickly discovered that the experience of

px in

southern california was all wrong for us in damp portland. The patients were

not heat

toxin and yin xu, but rather dampheat and spleen and kidney yang xu. Moxa

turned

out to be their main tretament, while in LA, yin tonics prevailed.

 

[Guest guest]

, " "

@e...> wrote:

> Z'ev, Bob, et al,

>

> I look forward to hearing from my esteemed colleague regarding the

following

> comments. I am not sure that they are rooted in traditional

theory, however,

> they seem to fit my understandings in reference to this subject.

Please feel

> free to rip me a new one.....:-}

>

asked, does excess cause a weakness and I would have to

answer yes

> (maybe). If there is a yang repletion, does this not cause a yin

vacuity? If

> there is replete phlegm in the lungs does this not impede the flow

of qi

> thus causing a lung qi vacuity? This may not be a cause that occurs

> immediately, but if left unchecked, isn't it inevitable?

 

I think one has to be careful here.. I.e. One can have an excess

condition for years. Meaning one does not supplement to improve the

condition but moves or reduces etc...Time does not equal vacuity!

Furthermore, I hear all the time, " The patient has had the problem

for 10 years therefore that is why there must be kidney xu. " This is

another pitfall, IMO, is simply not true.

 

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