Guest guest Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 I am not sure why I did not check this source previously, but I looked at it today for an unrelated issue and happened upon the disease category " shan bei " or frequent sorrow. The book is Bob Flaws & James Lakes " Chinese Medical Phychiatry. " I realize that Jason has not seen eye-to-eye with Bob as of late, but this is a modern source, though in English. However, I suppose that Bob did get his information from Chinese sources. In this chapter, it is stated that LU qi xu can lead to sorrow. It also states that internally engendered heat flaring upward and disturbing the LU can cause sorrow. Though Bob also mentions that sorrow can damage LU qi, he clearly states that other etologies of LU qi xu can still lead to sorrow. Therefore, it is not just a circular self-feeding pattern. This supports my interpretation of Deng, which Jason disagreed with. In all, 3 patterns are given, each of which has grief / sorrow as the main SYMPTOM. These are: 1. HT-LU qi xu 2. LR fire invading the LU 3. HT xu LU heat Each pattern is accompanied with herbal formulas and acupuncture treatments. It stands to reason that proper treatment would be followed by a reduction or cure of symptoms, including grief / sorrow. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 , " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...> wrote: > I am not sure why I did not check this source previously, but I looked > at it today for an unrelated issue and happened upon the disease > category " shan bei " or frequent sorrow. > > The book is Bob Flaws & James Lakes " Chinese Medical Phychiatry. " I > realize that Jason has not seen eye-to-eye with Bob as of late, but > this is a modern source, though in English. However, I suppose that > Bob did get his information from Chinese sources. > > In this chapter, it is stated that LU qi xu can lead to sorrow. It > also states that internally engendered heat flaring upward and > disturbing the LU can cause sorrow. Though Bob also mentions that > sorrow can damage LU qi, he clearly states that other etologies of LU > qi xu can still lead to sorrow. Therefore, it is not just a circular > self-feeding pattern. This supports my interpretation of Deng, which > Jason disagreed with. > > In all, 3 patterns are given, each of which has grief / sorrow as the > main SYMPTOM. These are: > 1. HT-LU qi xu > 2. LR fire invading the LU > 3. HT xu LU heat > Each pattern is accompanied with herbal formulas and acupuncture > treatments. Yes, of course.. I think you have misinterpreted my stance, please re-read my emails. Also reflect back on the original questiona and see if this helps you... Of course sorrow is going to be the main symptom (here) because of the chapter... -Jason > > It stands to reason that proper treatment would be followed by a > reduction or cure of symptoms, including grief / sorrow. > > Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 , " " <@h...> wrote: > Yes, of course.. I think you have misinterpreted my stance, please > re-read my emails. Also reflect back on the original questiona and > see if this helps you... Of course sorrow is going to be the main > symptom (here) because of the chapter... > > -Jason I re-read the emails, and you are right, sort of. You stated that grief / sorrow as a symptom was not enough to indicated a LU pattern. However, all 3 patterns that Bob listed involved a LU pathology. Also, the original post questioned whether or not grief / sorrow was a symptom of LU pathology because he / she had not seen it in the clinic. Again, all 3 patterns that Bob listed involved a LU pathology. Furthermore, the original post mentioned more typical LU qi xu symptoms such as SOB and cough. To this I referenced Wiseman's dictionary which gives quite a different presentation for what happens when grief damages the LU; it did not list those typical symptoms which is why the original poster was unable to find the correspondence. Of course, I mistakenly introduced grief as an etiology, rather than a symptom at that point which I later corrected with Deng, and now with Flaws / Lake. If you answer the following yes or no questions, I think I will understand your stance on this issue much better. Jason, do you believe that grief / sorrow can be caused by LU pathology, in particular any of the patterns listed in Flaws / Lake? Do you believe that the proper treatment of those patterns would reduce or elimate the grief? Do you believe that if grief is the etiological factor for the patterns in which there is a LU vacuity causing more grief, that proper treatment of those patterns would reduce or elimate the grief, thereby affecting the etiological factor? Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 , " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...> wrote: > , " " > <@h...> wrote: > > > Yes, of course.. I think you have misinterpreted my stance, please > > re-read my emails. Also reflect back on the original questiona and > > see if this helps you... Of course sorrow is going to be the main > > symptom (here) because of the chapter... > > > > -Jason > > I re-read the emails, and you are right, sort of. You stated that > grief / sorrow as a symptom was not enough to indicated a LU pattern. > However, all 3 patterns that Bob listed involved a LU pathology. > > Also, the original post questioned whether or not grief / sorrow was a > symptom of LU pathology because he / she had not seen it in the > clinic. Again, all 3 patterns that Bob listed involved a LU pathology. That may be true, but again that is only one source, and a limited one at that, IMO. AS much as I like many of the English books, there are almost always more details, information, and patterns in Chinese. So my stance is that grief does not have to be related to the lung. Period… More simply, grief does not automatically equal lung pattern... This is the essence of the question, and my stance is that. Therefore automatically treating the lung (original idea) will not necessarily eliminate grief. > > Furthermore, the original post mentioned more typical LU qi xu > symptoms such as SOB and cough. To this I referenced Wiseman's > dictionary which gives quite a different presentation for what happens > when grief damages the LU; it did not list those typical symptoms > which is why the original poster was unable to find the > correspondence. Of course, I mistakenly introduced grief as an > etiology, rather than a symptom at that point which I later corrected > with Deng, and now with Flaws / Lake. > > If you answer the following yes or no questions, I think I will > understand your stance on this issue much better. > > Jason, do you believe that grief / sorrow can be caused by LU > pathology, in particular any of the patterns listed in Flaws / Lake? Of course, we have established grief can be an etiology. > > Do you believe that the proper treatment of those patterns would > reduce or elimate the grief? Maybe… > > Do you believe that if grief is the etiological factor for the > patterns in which there is a LU vacuity causing more grief, that > proper treatment of those patterns would reduce or elimate the grief, > thereby affecting the etiological factor? Of course a proper tx that is designed for treating grief, should eliminate the grief. But what is proper… - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 , " " <@h...> wrote: > That may be true, but again that is only one source, and a limited > one at that, IMO. AS much as I like many of the English books, > there are almost always more details, information, and patterns in > Chinese. So my stance is that grief does not have to be related to I have to agree with you by default on this one. I believe it, but because I do not yet read medical chinese, I do not know for sure. I admire your efforts to learn medical chinese. I would be interesting to see a Chinese source text chapter on frequent sorrow / grief. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 Brian, If you want a Chinese citation for our materials on frequent sorrow, please e-mail Philippe Sionneau at philippe. He should be able to provide you with at least one. James and I have listed our Chinese citations in the bibliography and fottnotes of our psych book. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001> wrote: > Brian, > > If you want a Chinese citation for our materials on frequent sorrow, please e-mail Philippe Sionneau at philippe@s... He > should be able to provide you with at least one. James and I have listed our Chinese citations in the bibliography and fottnotes of our > psych book. > > Bob Thanks for the guidance, Bob. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.