loss of jing / standards / vasectomy

January 26, 2004

Here is something that is not so clear about CM.

There is a notion that males lose jing when having sex. I am not

certain, but I think the Chinese character for semen is the same

character used for " jing " in general, such as when we talk of jing

vacuity. If so, then it is possible that some confusion has arisen

because of this. Whereas it may be obvious that semen is lost during

sex, is the general " jing " really depleted?

Also, it may be possible that social structure allowed for the

admonitions against excessive sex, using a medical reason as

smokescreen for their agenda. Also, the link between promiscuity,

excessive sex, and sexually transmitted diseases may have been a

factor in warning against excessive sex.

I never bought into the idea that excessive sex would deplete the jing

or lead to KI vacuity. I base this on experience, not as a CM

practitioner, but as a person, living a life, having sex, etc.

Anyway, the whole reason for this post was to give you some food for

thought:

If a man has a vasectomy, then he no longer loses semen during sex.

One way to look at this from a CM perspective is that having a

vasectomy would allow one to have excessive sex without suffering loss

of jing. Is this right?

Have studies been done on this topic at all? Why is it still taught?

What about the vasectomy idea throwing a wrench into the works?

Brian C. Allen

January 26, 2004

There is one more issue about this that I forgot to mention in the

first post.

If it really is the general kind of jing that is lost during sex for

males, rather than semen-jing, then is it pre-natal jing or is it

post-natal jing?

If it is post-natal jing, then what is the big deal. As long as I eat

food and breathe air, I will continue to make more post-natal jing.

Also, all of my daily physical activities use post-natal jing. What

is going to use more jing - having sex or doing an aerobics class?

Brian C. Allen

January 26, 2004

, " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...> wrote:

> Here is something that is not so clear about CM.

>

> There is a notion that males lose jing when having sex. I am not

> certain, but I think the Chinese character for semen is the same

> character used for " jing " in general, such as when we talk of jing

> vacuity. If so, then it is possible that some confusion has arisen

> because of this. Whereas it may be obvious that semen is lost during

> sex, is the general " jing " really depleted?

I am not aware of any confusion of characters on this one, but if you

have something that suggests this, I would be interested to see it...

>

> Also, it may be possible that social structure allowed for the

> admonitions against excessive sex, using a medical reason as

> smokescreen for their agenda. Also, the link between promiscuity,

> excessive sex, and sexually transmitted diseases may have been a

> factor in warning against excessive sex.

This is always a possibility, and I would look towards, possibly,

anthropology for some evidence here... Otherwise it is just

speculation, but possible.

>

> I never bought into the idea that excessive sex would deplete the jing

> or lead to KI vacuity. I base this on experience, not as a CM

> practitioner, but as a person, living a life, having sex, etc.

Well I do not think that your experience is enough to negate Chinese

theory. I think that there are many other factors to consider here.

First and foremost, if someone is semi-healthy then sex is not a

issue. And what is excessive for one, may not be for another…

Excessive sex damage is an equation, something like: number of times

per day for one's age and one's constitution, and one's current

condition (and for how long). IME, Excessive sex can definitely

deplete one's jing. I experienced this first hand when I had sex for

5 times a day for quite some time… I also have patient's that just

cannot or should not be having sex the number of times suggested for

their age.

But you are right in you next post, I also think if someone over

exercises then this can also deplete jing. Walking up too many stairs

can deplete jing if that person is very very weak. The way I view the

post and prenatal relationship is that if your postnatal qi is xu you

must tap into your reserves, pre-natal. Using pre-natal is of course

more detrimental than using postnatal. To sum up… So Will chamberlain

might not have a problem with excessive sex because he has a strong

constitution, and the jing loss can be easily replaced, but many

others could never keep up such a pace…

It's take qi to have sex and to replenish sperm, this can

potentially tax the reserves or Jing. But jing is a tricky word, and

the way one defines it might change things…

Does this help?

-

January 26, 2004

, " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...> wrote:

> There is one more issue about this that I forgot to mention in the

> first post.

>

> If it really is the general kind of jing that is lost during sex for

> males, rather than semen-jing, then is it pre-natal jing or is it

> post-natal jing?

>

> If it is post-natal jing, then what is the big deal. As long as I eat

> food and breathe air, I will continue to make more post-natal jing.

> Also, all of my daily physical activities use post-natal jing. What

> is going to use more jing - having sex or doing an aerobics class?

>

> Brian C. Allen

I think it has the potential to drain both, depending on the person.

Let us not forget overwork (which could be aerobics class) is a very

common etiology...

-

January 26, 2004

, " "

<@h...> wrote:

> It's take qi to have sex and to replenish sperm, this can

> potentially tax the reserves or Jing. But jing is a tricky word, and

> the way one defines it might change things…

>

Thanks for your input. I did think that the characters for the

general jing and for semen-jing were the same. Are they? If so, that

is why I thought that the 2 concepts could be confused. If not, then

obviously not.

Brian C. Allen

January 26, 2004

, " "

<@h...> wrote:

> It's take qi to have sex and to replenish sperm, this can

> potentially tax the reserves or Jing. But jing is a tricky word, and

> the way one defines it might change things…

>

Also, I was taught that it was the ejaculation that caused the loss of

jing. This was the rationale for why men lose jing during sex and

females do not (another concept that I do feel like agreeing with).

If it is just the ejaculation that causes the loss, again, this makes

me think that it is jing-semen being talked about, not just general

jing. And, this brings up the point regarding vasectomy that I was

hoping someone would address. If it is ejaculation that causes the

jing loss, then a vasectomy should remedy that.

Furthermore, if it is just the " activity " of sex that cause the jing

loss (I am more inclined to believe this, and it would apply to male

and female), then why did it have to be spelled out like it was some

special case. Like you said, overwork, physical taxation, is a common

etiology. If this is what " excessive " sex is, then why would sex have

to be singled out and not any other leisure activity?

The questions are not just for you. I'd like to make sense of whole

notion.

Brian C. Allen

January 26, 2004

, " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...> wrote:

> , " "

> <@h...> wrote:

>

> > It's take qi to have sex and to replenish sperm, this can

> > potentially tax the reserves or Jing. But jing is a tricky word, and

> > the way one defines it might change things…

> >

>

> Thanks for your input. I did think that the characters for the

> general jing and for semen-jing were the same. Are they? If so, that

> is why I thought that the 2 concepts could be confused. If not, then

> obviously not.

>

> Brian C. Allen

They are the same character, but that says something in and of itself...

-JB

January 26, 2004

, " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...> wrote:

> , " "

> <@h...> wrote:

>

> > It's take qi to have sex and to replenish sperm, this can

> > potentially tax the reserves or Jing. But jing is a tricky word, and

> > the way one defines it might change things…

> >

>

> Also, I was taught that it was the ejaculation that caused the loss of

> jing.

I think this is true...

This was the rationale for why men lose jing during sex and

> females do not (another concept that I do feel like agreeing with).

> If it is just the ejaculation that causes the loss, again, this makes

> me think that it is jing-semen being talked about, not just general

> jing.

Jing is a deep word, and it is not just an independent substance in

the body... It has relations with qi, blood etc... I am unsure what

you are getting at with general jing vs. jing-semen.. >?? In my

article on yinfire I do some parsing out on the subject of yuan qi and

essential qi etc.. For, it is said excessive sex can damage original

qi. There is a complicated relationship between all these substances

that should be understood to help you understand what is going on

through this action. Also understanding the definitions will also be

helpful… But I do think it is much more than the activity (of sex).

And if I were to guess it has to do with remaking the sperm. It is my

understanding, that a vasectomy does not solve this problem. (Consult

the biomedical (mechanical) explanation for what happens to the sperm

to confirm this.) It think it is still lost, and I think into the

bladder…??

-

And, this brings up the point regarding vasectomy that I was

> hoping someone would address. If it is ejaculation that causes the

> jing loss, then a vasectomy should remedy that.

>

> Furthermore, if it is just the " activity " of sex that cause the jing

> loss (I am more inclined to believe this, and it would apply to male

> and female), then why did it have to be spelled out like it was some

> special case. Like you said, overwork, physical taxation, is a common

> etiology. If this is what " excessive " sex is, then why would sex have

> to be singled out and not any other leisure activity?

>

> The questions are not just for you. I'd like to make sense of whole

> notion.

>

> Brian C. Allen

January 26, 2004

From my studies, the Chinese understood jing as semen to be one aspect

of the overall essence of the body. Also, since the ancient Chinese

couldn't distinguish the actual sperm from the seminal fluid, the jing

included all aspects of the ejaculate. While there were more extreme

interpretations of retention of jing/essence vis a vis methods of

seminal retention during intercourse, authors such as Zhu Danxi, Sun

Simiao and Ekiken Kaibara simply sought to limit sexual relations to

the ability of the individual male to replenish jing/essence through

diet, rest, herbs, etc., according to age and constitution. it was

when excessive sexual activity drained one's 'reserves' that problems

could develop.

Vascectomy may eliminate sperm from the ejaculate, but the fluid is

still jing, and still ejaculated, therefore potentially lost. Also,

vasectomy also blocks network vessels containing an aspect of jing,

therefore can cause local qi stagnation and blood stasis in the lower

burner, and cause blockage of the liver channel that circulates in that

area, leading to potential liver qi stagnation and/or liver qi

depression.

On Jan 26, 2004, at 12:46 PM, bcataiji wrote:

>

> Also, I was taught that it was the ejaculation that caused the loss of

> jing. This was the rationale for why men lose jing during sex and

> females do not (another concept that I do feel like agreeing with).

> If it is just the ejaculation that causes the loss, again, this makes

> me think that it is jing-semen being talked about, not just general

> jing. And, this brings up the point regarding vasectomy that I was

> hoping someone would address. If it is ejaculation that causes the

> jing loss, then a vasectomy should remedy that.

>

> Furthermore, if it is just the " activity " of sex that cause the jing

> loss (I am more inclined to believe this, and it would apply to male

> and female), then why did it have to be spelled out like it was some

> special case. Like you said, overwork, physical taxation, is a common

> etiology. If this is what " excessive " sex is, then why would sex have

> to be singled out and not any other leisure activity?

January 26, 2004

Interesting subject. A couple of points:

Semen and sperm are different. Vasectomy prevents sperm cells travelling

from the testes to the seminal vesicles where they are stored with semen as

a medium. Semen is a nutritive fluid produced by the prostate gland, and

which supports the sperm cells in the waiting time in the SV and when they

are ejected into the vagina.

IMHO. Countries with large populations seems to develop a tradition of

saying 'don't have too much sex'. In the PRC they say this because of the

overcrowding. In the pre-PRC there may have had to be a 'rationalisation' to

make the rule stick. In India becoming sexless is tied in with facilitating

spiritual development and moving on to the next world. In the Near East sex

is tied in with 'sin'. All of these rationalisations serve the same purpose,

to put a brake on unwanted pregnancy, overcrowding and STD's.

Cheers,

Sammy.

bcataiji [bcaom]

26 January 2004 20:59

Re: loss of jing / standards / vasectomy

, " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...> wrote:

> jing. This was the rationale for why men lose jing during sex and

> females do not (another concept that I do feel like agreeing with).

That should say " another concept that I do NOT feel like agreeing with.

Why is it that my typos always change the meaning of what I write,

rather than just the spelling??!!!

Brian C. Allen

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

January 26, 2004

It was also thought that eunuchs were especially good martial artists

because they retained there jing.

What is really interesting about the anti-sex faction in Chinese thought

(and it isn't just medical folks with a political agenda, there's definitely

a monastic/hermit daoist tradition with a big anti-sex side) is that there

is a strong cross cultural correlation of the symptoms the excessive sex is

supposed to cause. I was reading an old frontier home medical manual (pub

circa 1870) and it described jing vacuity to a tee in the context of " self

abuse " , hair loss teeth falling out, mental disturbance, etc. If you read

something like " The Water Margin " most of the heroic types in the stories

have wives but generally hang out with the guys, and the lascivious ones are

regarded as weak willed and intemperate. By contrast, truly heroic feats of

gluttony and drinking were laudable.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a moderate sex life, but while I

was working in the rehab/AIDS community I certainly met a fair number of ex

sex industry folks who looked pretty spent, and looking much older than they

ought to. Perhaps context and intent has something to do with whether sex

is healthy or not. Admittedly, being a junkie and working as a prostitute

probably have some other effects which skew the sample a bit.

Par Scott

-

" bcataiji " <bcaom

Monday, January 26, 2004 1:46 PM

loss of jing / standards / vasectomy

> Here is something that is not so clear about CM.

>

> There is a notion that males lose jing when having sex. I am not

> certain, but I think the Chinese character for semen is the same

> character used for " jing " in general, such as when we talk of jing

> vacuity. If so, then it is possible that some confusion has arisen

> because of this. Whereas it may be obvious that semen is lost during

> sex, is the general " jing " really depleted?

>

> Also, it may be possible that social structure allowed for the

> admonitions against excessive sex, using a medical reason as

> smokescreen for their agenda. Also, the link between promiscuity,

> excessive sex, and sexually transmitted diseases may have been a

> factor in warning against excessive sex.

>

> I never bought into the idea that excessive sex would deplete the jing

> or lead to KI vacuity. I base this on experience, not as a CM

> practitioner, but as a person, living a life, having sex, etc.

>

> Anyway, the whole reason for this post was to give you some food for

> thought:

>

> If a man has a vasectomy, then he no longer loses semen during sex.

> One way to look at this from a CM perspective is that having a

> vasectomy would allow one to have excessive sex without suffering loss

> of jing. Is this right?

>

> Have studies been done on this topic at all? Why is it still taught?

> What about the vasectomy idea throwing a wrench into the works?

>

> Brian C. Allen

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

January 26, 2004

I recalled a crianio sacral practitioner I've worked with remarking that

semen has a very similar chemistry to cerebro-spinal fluid, and I found this

on the net. I think he was thinking about this in the jing-sperm context.

http://www.kuruvinda.com/health_celibacy-5.shtml

Live long and prosper,

Par

-

" bcataiji " <bcaom

Monday, January 26, 2004 3:46 PM

Re: loss of jing / standards / vasectomy

, " "

<@h...> wrote:

> It's take qi to have sex and to replenish sperm, this can

> potentially tax the reserves or Jing. But jing is a tricky word, and

> the way one defines it might change things.

>

Also, I was taught that it was the ejaculation that caused the loss of

jing. This was the rationale for why men lose jing during sex and

females do not (another concept that I do feel like agreeing with).

If it is just the ejaculation that causes the loss, again, this makes

me think that it is jing-semen being talked about, not just general

jing. And, this brings up the point regarding vasectomy that I was

hoping someone would address. If it is ejaculation that causes the

jing loss, then a vasectomy should remedy that.

Furthermore, if it is just the " activity " of sex that cause the jing

loss (I am more inclined to believe this, and it would apply to male

and female), then why did it have to be spelled out like it was some

special case. Like you said, overwork, physical taxation, is a common

etiology. If this is what " excessive " sex is, then why would sex have

to be singled out and not any other leisure activity?

The questions are not just for you. I'd like to make sense of whole

notion.

Brian C. Allen

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

January 26, 2004

Sorry, I should have read the whole thread before jumping in.

ç¶“(Sç») [jÄ«ng] longitude; scripture; ...; å·²ç¶“ already; æ˜“ç¶“ I Ching

î¿¿!ci 1006283723|ç¶“[ç»] Â¹jÄ«ng n. â‘ ã€ˆtxtl.ã€‰ warp â‘¡ã€ˆCh. med.ã€‰

channels â‘¢ã€ˆgeog.ã€‰

longitude â‘£scripture; canon; classics â‘¤menses; menstruation â‘¥Surname â—†v.

â‘ manage; deal/engage in â‘¡pass through; undergo â‘¢stand; bear; endure

Jing in this context has an interesting meaning, since it is also to jing in

Nei and Nan Jing. The character implies a weaving or threading through, and

in terms of books it indicates something of perennial wisdom which works its

way down through generations, obviously it also indicates a meridian in Jing

Luo. If you look at it that way in terms of parents passing on portions of

themselves to their children it also makes sense, our familial material

passes down to us through the ages.

Interestingly our word 'text' and the word 'textile' share this same

relationship which goes right back to Sanskrit.

In Daoism (which is the only religion/system I have much personal

experience.with, I believe the theoretical aspects of it are similar in

Buddhist and Hindu systems) transmission of lineage links you to the

jing-chain with the previous teachers of the line, and if your forward

thinking, to those who come after as well.

æœˆç¶“ or moon essence refers to menstrual blood, which in some Daoist theories

is equated with a woman's jing loss (analogous to the jing lost in

ejaculation in males). There are practices which are advocated to this day

(right or wrong) for qi gong which slows or stops the menses to retain this

essence (Mantak Chia has some of this in his books I think).

Whether or not one can equate the abstract concept of jing with a variety of

human excretions based on etymology is anyone's guess, but I would not

discount semen in terms of its importance, or be intemperate in flinging it

around. Obviously it contains whatever quality it has to provoke a human

life, and that's got to be some pretty heavy mojo.

Par Scott

-

" " <

Monday, January 26, 2004 3:59 PM

Re: loss of jing / standards / vasectomy

, " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...> wrote:

> , " "

> <@h...> wrote:

>

> > It's take qi to have sex and to replenish sperm, this can

> > potentially tax the reserves or Jing. But jing is a tricky word, and

> > the way one defines it might change things.

> >

>

> Thanks for your input. I did think that the characters for the

> general jing and for semen-jing were the same. Are they? If so, that

> is why I thought that the 2 concepts could be confused. If not, then

> obviously not.

>

> Brian C. Allen

They are the same character, but that says something in and of itself...

-JB

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

January 26, 2004

While this may be true in certain cultural contexts, I don't think it

is absolutely so in Chinese medicine. Like all other disease patterns,

it has been observed by Chinese physicians that certain behaviors

produce taxation, i.e. overtaxing the resources of the body, and

leading to depletions of yin, yang, qi, blood and/or essence.

Also, when looking at cultures such as India and China, one can find

extensive writings in the medical literature on sexual cultivation as a

method of improving health and longevity. In China, it is called yang

sheng/nourishing of life, and goes back to the ancient Mawangdui

manuscripts.

On Jan 26, 2004, at 2:13 PM, sammy_bates wrote:

> IMHO. Countries with large populations seems to develop a tradition of

> saying 'don't have too much sex'. In the PRC they say this because of

> the

> overcrowding. In the pre-PRC there may have had to be a

> 'rationalisation' to

> make the rule stick. In India becoming sexless is tied in with

> facilitating

> spiritual development and moving on to the next world. In the Near

> East sex

> is tied in with 'sin'. All of these rationalisations serve the same

> purpose,

> to put a brake on unwanted pregnancy, overcrowding and STD's

January 27, 2004

, " Par Scott " <parufus@e...>

wrote:

> Sorry, I should have read the whole thread before jumping in.

>

> ç¶ " (Sç») [jÄ«ng] longitude; scripture; ...; å•²ç¶ " already; æ˜ " ç¶ "

I Ching

> î¿¿!ci 1006283723|ç¶ " [ç»] Â¹jÄ«ng n. â` ã€ˆtxtl.ã€‰ warp â`¡ã€ˆCh.

med.ã€‰ channels â`¢ã€ˆgeog.ã€‰

> longitude â`£scripture; canon; classics â`¤menses; menstruation

â`¥Surname â—†v.

> â` manage; deal/engage in â`¡pass through; undergo â`¢stand; bear;

endure

>

> Jing in this context has an interesting meaning, since it is also to

jing in

> Nei and Nan Jing. The character implies a weaving or threading

through, and

> in terms of books it indicates something of perennial wisdom which

works its

> way down through generations, obviously it also indicates a meridian

in Jing

> Luo. If you look at it that way in terms of parents passing on

portions of

> themselves to their children it also makes sense, our familial material

> passes down to us through the ages.

I cannot read your above 'characters', and I don't know what exactly

you are saying, but the above jing is different than the essence jing.

So I am unsure about you connection with the parents.

And Z'ev is right, there are plenty of sexual sects in China... There

were daoist sex cults that had multiple sex partners a night... Also

didn't many emperors have many sexual partners? The key was to not be

drained by this activity but to cultivate…

-

>

> Interestingly our word 'text' and the word 'textile' share this same

> relationship which goes right back to Sanskrit.

>

> In Daoism (which is the only religion/system I have much personal

> experience.with, I believe the theoretical aspects of it are similar in

> Buddhist and Hindu systems) transmission of lineage links you to the

> jing-chain with the previous teachers of the line, and if your forward

> thinking, to those who come after as well.

>

> æœˆç¶ " or moon essence refers to menstrual blood, which in some

Daoist theories

> is equated with a woman's jing loss (analogous to the jing lost in

> ejaculation in males). There are practices which are advocated to

this day

> (right or wrong) for qi gong which slows or stops the menses to

retain this

> essence (Mantak Chia has some of this in his books I think).

>

> Whether or not one can equate the abstract concept of jing with a

variety of

> human excretions based on etymology is anyone's guess, but I would not

> discount semen in terms of its importance, or be intemperate in

flinging it

> around. Obviously it contains whatever quality it has to provoke a

human

> life, and that's got to be some pretty heavy mojo.

>

> Par Scott

January 27, 2004

== It was also thought that eunuchs were especially good martial artists

because they retained there jing.

I think the reason for this is because eunuchs are big guys and hard to get

past physically. [ The size being due to failure of the epiphyseal growth

plate at the end of the long bones to close on adolescent production of

aromatised testosterone. Girls are smaller because of higher levels of

estrogen earlier on. ]

Eunuchs will make good martial artists because a well placed kick to the

testicles, which would stop most men in their tracks has no effect

whatsoever on them ;-)

I do not see what either of these factors have to do with 'preserved jing',

pre-or post natal re. the eunuch. The absence of testicles will cause a

lessening of testosterone (jing aspect to be sure) to be made up by

adrenal testosterone in the male eunuch if he wishes to be not only big but

strong as well. As eunuchs age they will put on more body weight as the

small amount of testosterone they do possess converts to estrogen via

aromatisation. They will be less and less inclined to warrior like

activities as time goes on, so the reputation they enjoy as 'martial

artists' has got to be limited and carefully qualified. I think we have to

weed out mystification from the essential core of TCM if it is to survive

the next century. So I am on the case here & please excuse me for enquiring

about this statement you made:

==. I was reading an old frontier home medical manual (pub circa 1870) and

it described jing vacuity to a tee in the context of " self abuse " , hair loss

teeth falling out, mental disturbance, etc

Surely this was describing an older person, not a youngster? I'd be

interested to learn how they tied in " self abuse " that is characteristically

a behaviour of self discovery of the sexually naïve & immature, and " hair

loss falling out " which is characteristic of an aged person. I don't think

aged people are into habitual destructive self abuse, unless they are well

and truly suffering some " mental disturbance " , so where are your statements

here taking you? This 'old frontier book' you are reading - does it advocate

the burning of witches as well by any chance ;-)

I agree with your comments on sex workers.

Sammy.

Par Scott [parufus]

27 January 2004 03:13