Guest guest Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 All, I think the recent discussion of jing is good evidence that failing to consider the nature of Chinese thought leads to the materialization and reduction of concepts. It is not that the concept of jing is right or wrong in predicting outcomes related to sexual intemperance, it is that you cannot use a metaphor to project beyond itself. Patterns, which are metaphors, are statements of observable facts, not statements of biological function. Jing describes a relationship between humans, sexuality and offspring. Discussing jing as semen and only semen further encourages the notion that the jing concept can be safely reduced to marterial form. Jing is a metaphor that describes observable relationships established by naked-sense observation. It is a statement of fact not a causal principle. The extension of the loss of jing to premature aging is metaphoric. . . jing is hard to get, easy to lose and impossible to replace. This is an obvious observation of aging in humans as fertility - the ability to pass on one's characteristic to offspring, sexual arousal and the production of all sexual fluids - not just seminal fluid (which was not microscopically discriminated as sperm and fluid) decline with age. Both males and females excrete/ejaculate at sexual maturity and cease to do so sometime before their (natural) death. This pattern is also obvious in individual sexual experience. Both males and females experience a post-coital refractory period in which the physiology of arousal is dormant and re-arousal is impossible for a period that is directly proportional to age. Concubinage is a historical fact among Chinese nobles and the wealthy (and is currently a social issue in China among individuals who have acquired personal wealth.) Many " princes " were probably in their teens and twenties. Regardless, multiple sexual partners demanded seminal retention techniques even for the virile young, as well as justification within the mores of the time. The jing metaphor fits the conclusion that seminal retention lead to longevity as well as providing a rationale for the behavior of the elites. Observed from the viewpoint of someone for whom jing was a whole concept not requiring re-statement in biological terms, it would be obvious that the refractory period was a loss of jing and qi, not that protien and hormonal messengers stopped and stared aspects of sexual biology. The jing = semen concept is a reduction that implies the idea that jing is stuff and thus that a depletion of jing must manifest as a vacuity of something material. This then leads to attempts to associate jing wholly with one or another biological principle, and lo-and-behold, the association fails. . . the result of the apples and organes assumption. Various forms of fluid loss, and aging signs and symptoms exist in patterns for which there are proposed therapies. Since Chinese medicine operates by describing patterns associated with therapy, and not with the description sub-observable causal factors, it can be correctly applied in therapy but not to biological causation. This is a touch subtle but if you look at the conclusion that CM is dogma, it is not something to ignore. First, here is a fascinating quote from a scientist buddy on this topic: " Ask [Todd] if there is any difference between " dogma " and " theory " before each is tested empirically. The main theory of biotechnology and genetic engineering is what we in the sciences call The Central Dogma of James Watson: DNA can be derived from DNA and RNA; RNA can be derived from DNA and RNA; Protein can be derived from DNA and RNA; DNA and RNA can never be derived from protein. Ask Todd if The Central Dogma of James Watsondisqualifies biotechnology as a true science by his definition. " Second, the test of the theory of jing is not whether it predicts the biological outcomes of sexual intemperance (or really whether it defines intemperance precisely) but that whether or not it serves to clue an appropriate response (whether moderation or therapy). It is more complexity testable, but it is testable on its own terms. Bob Robert L. Felt bob Paradigm Publications www.paradigm-pubs.com 202 Bendix Drive 505 758 7758 Taos, New Mexico 87571 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 This has got to be one of the best posts I have read in a while. For many reasons. Life is great! Thanks for sharing, Chris In a message dated 1/30/2004 10:37:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, alonmarcus writes: She got angry and decided to masturbate infront of him. She apparently had lots of orgasms and since then her voice and energy are improved. For what ever this is worth Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 , " Robert L. Felt " <bob@p...> wrote: > The extension of the loss of jing to premature aging is metaphoric. .. . jing is > hard to get, easy to lose and impossible to replace. This is an obvious > observation of aging in humans as fertility - the ability to pass on one's > characteristic to offspring, sexual arousal and the production of all sexual > fluids - not just seminal fluid (which was not microscopically discriminated > as sperm and fluid) decline with age. Both males and females > excrete/ejaculate at sexual maturity and cease to do so sometime before > their (natural) death. This pattern is also obvious in individual sexual > experience. Both males and females experience a post-coital refractory > period in which the physiology of arousal is dormant and re-arousal is > impossible for a period that is directly proportional to age. Robert, Thanks you for the well thought out post. It places a welcome perspective onto this issue. I do wonder, though, about what you say about the refractory period. This is something that I do not experience, and I am aware there are many others that do not. I also am aware that many males do experience this refractory period, and that it may be more the norm. For those that do not experience the refractory period after ejaculation, what changes, then, would be made to the metaphor. Also, one the metaphor changes, what changes would take place in the resultant theory, and therefore, lifestyle recommendations? Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Today I saw a patient that is 86 years old. Her main complaints have been shortness of breath, low energy, and loss of voice when tired all starting after a pneumonia. I have been treating her for K Lu Qi and Yin def. Today she came and told me that a few days ago she wanted to have sex with her partner but that he did not want to. She got angry and decided to masturbate infront of him. She apparently had lots of orgasms and since then her voice and energy are improved. For what ever this is worth Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 , " Robert L. Felt " <bob@p...> wrote: > > " Ask [Todd] if there is any difference between " dogma " and " theory " before > each is tested empirically. no there is not Ask Todd if The Central > Dogma of James Watsondisqualifies biotechnology as a true science by his > definition. " I didn't understand a single word of that quote and I have to admit I have no interest in further clarification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 This is interesting. I have heard reports of tinnitus disappearing after sexual activity. [i.e. A KI Yin deficiency condition cleared by activity that would supposedly make it worse.] Could it be the tinnitus I have come across and the 'loss of voice' mentioned below were caused by a blockage (pathogen or trauma) leading to an apparent deficiency at some point on a meridian ? The build up and release of jing through sexual activity seems to have broken through a barrier of sorts and allowed Qi to flow along a meridian where before it was prevented. Sammy. Alon Marcus [alonmarcus] 31 January 2004 03:30 Re: Re: Jing, dogma Today I saw a patient that is 86 years old. Her main complaints have been shortness of breath, low energy, and loss of voice when tired all starting after a pneumonia. I have been treating her for K Lu Qi and Yin def. Today she came and told me that a few days ago she wanted to have sex with her partner but that he did not want to. She got angry and decided to masturbate infront of him. She apparently had lots of orgasms and since then her voice and energy are improved. For what ever this is worth Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 This is interesting. I have heard reports of tinnitus disappearing after sexual activity. [i.e. A KI Yin deficiency condition cleared by activity that would supposedly make it worse.] Could it be the tinnitus I have come across and the 'loss of voice' mentioned below were caused by a blockage (pathogen or trauma) leading to an apparent deficiency at some point on a meridian ? The build up and release of jing through sexual activity seems to have broken through a barrier of sorts and allowed Qi to flow along a meridian where before it was prevented. Sammy >>>>That is how i would explain this if it was a musculoskeletal problem, but who knows alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2004 Report Share Posted February 1, 2004 Hi all, what is reported here under, pin-points exactly what I have been trying to say in a previous letter. The energetic effect or result of sex is very much, if not totally, dependent on the psychological conditions of the participants. If you love your partner, feel anger, mere sexual attraction and so on. It is like a word; the intonation and body language decide what the receiver feel and what it may lead to. Do not anybody agree with that. May be not, as nobody commented my previous mail. Are This is interesting. I have heard reports of tinnitus disappearing after sexual activity. [i.e. A KI Yin deficiency condition cleared by activity that would supposedly make it worse.] Could it be the tinnitus I have come across and the 'loss of voice' mentioned below were caused by a blockage (pathogen or trauma) leading to an apparent deficiency at some point on a meridian ? The build up and release of jing through sexual activity seems to have broken through a barrier of sorts and allowed Qi to flow along a meridian where before it was prevented. Sammy. Today I saw a patient that is 86 years old. Her main complaints have been shortness of breath, low energy, and loss of voice when tired all starting after a pneumonia. I have been treating her for K Lu Qi and Yin def. Today she came and told me that a few days ago she wanted to have sex with her partner but that he did not want to. She got angry and decided to masturbate infront of him. She apparently had lots of orgasms and since then her voice and energy are improved. For what ever this is worth Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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