syphilis

[Guest guest]

I submit this because it may constitute evidence in the eyes of some

members following this thread. due to the rarity of tertiary syphilis

in the modern world, many people are no longer familiar with the

ravages of this disease and how the sx resemble many other diseases.

it is well known that many people in ancient europe suffered from

conditions that were attributed to many causes in the old humoral

system (including loss of vital reserves from excessive sex), but which

were actually due to syphilis. this can actually be determined from

investigating archaeological remains as the spirochetes leave

characteristic lesions on the bones. There has much been written about

he hx of syphilis. this info is not hard to find on the internet.

 

Note that the primary and secondary lesions of syphilis only occur

within the first two years of the disease and then often never return.

the initial chancre heals so quickly, the shortlived sore could easily

be written off as a consequence of too much sex (chafing in other

words). In any event, it heals quickly and most men were known to have

ignored this sign and thus go on to have other sx (until public health

campaigns of the mid-late 20th century ended this oversight in the

developed world). While there can be recurring skin rashes for a year

or two, these also usually disappear and the patient may appear normal

for many years, even decades. The skin rashes often are associated

with a range of low grade symptoms that are similar to those seen in

patients diagnosed with fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, food allergy or

multiple chemical sensitivity. Later the hair may be begin to fallout.

 

So the young man who once had a problem with a skin rash and joint pain

is now an old man. In the mean time, he has continued his life of

debauchery. He now has any number of unusual neurological and other

signs resembling many of the most knotty diseases (note all the signs

of yin xu wind and yang xu cold). Be clear that the s/s mentioned

below in the late stage are not some sudden acute flareup, but unfold

as a long drawn out process of decline. The only logical explanation

in a humoral system of medicine for this pattern is the decline of

essence. There is just no way any ancient societies actually

understood the infectious nature of syphilis. So no amount of case

studies (even 1000's) would have identified this factor, so I find

reference to the chinese case study literature as some sort of evidence

to be a specious argument. If one could not identify a disease factor

such as a STD, then of course one would attribute the disease to other

causes. Perhaps it is some chronic heat-toxin in the blood that

actually consumes the essence and it has nothing to do with sexual

activity, per se. Perhaps we need to wed the wen bing school with the

kidney school to sort this one out. In any event, FYI:

 

Primary stage: The primary lesion, or chancre (see Plate 164-1),

generally evolves and heals within 4 to 8 wk in untreated patients.

After inoculation, a red papule quickly erodes to form a painless ulcer

with an indurated base that, when abraded, exudes a clear serum

containing numerous spirochetes [this happens in less than one week

usually]. The regional lymph nodes usually enlarge painlessly and are

firm, discrete, and nontender.

 

Secondary stage: Cutaneous rashes usually appear within 6 to 12 wk

after infection and are most florid after 3 to 4 mo. The lesions may be

transitory or may persist for months. If untreated, they frequently

heal, but fresh ones may appear within weeks or months. Mild

constitutional symptoms of fever, malaise, headache, anorexia, nausea,

achy bones, and fatigability are often present as are anemia, jaundice,

and albuminuria.

 

Syphilitic skin rashes may simulate various dermatologic conditions.

Usually, they are symmetric and more marked on the flexor and volar

surfaces of the body, especially the palms and soles. The rashes

generally occur in crops as macules, papules, pustules, or squamous

lesions. The individual spots are pigmented in blacks and are pinkish

or pale red in whites. They are round, tend to become confluent and

indurated, and generally do not itch. They eventually heal, usually

without scarring but sometimes with areas of residual hyperpigmentation

or depigmentation.

 

The mucous membranes frequently erode, forming mucous patches that are

circular and often grayish white with a red areola. These patches occur

mostly in the mouth, on the palate, pharynx, or larynx; on the glans

penis or vulva; or in the anal canal and rectum. Condyloma

lata--hypertrophic, flattened, dull pink or gray papules at the

mucocutaneous junctions and in moist areas of the skin--are extremely

infectious. Hair often falls out in patches, leaving a moth-eaten

appearance (alopecia areata).

 

Latent stage: This stage may resolve spontaneously in a few years or

last for the rest of the patient's life. In the early latent period (<

2 yr after infection), infectious mucocutaneous relapses may occur, but

after 2 yr contagious lesions rarely develop, and the patient appears

normal. About 1/3 of untreated persons develop late syphilis, though

perhaps not until many years after the initial infection. In patients

exposed to antibiotics for other diseases, latent syphilis may be

cured, which could account for the rarity of late-stage disease in

developed countries.

 

Late or tertiary stage: Lesions may be clinically described as (1)

benign tertiary syphilis of the skin, bone, and viscera, (2)

cardiovascular syphilis, or (3) neurosyphilis.

 

Neurosyphilis: Symptomatic neurosyphilis produces various clinical

syndromes in about 5% of untreated infections.

 

In meningovascular neurosyphilis, brain involvement is signaled by

headache, dizziness, poor concentration, lassitude, insomnia, neck

stiffness, and blurred vision. Mental confusion, epileptiform attacks,

papilledema, aphasia, and mono- or hemiplegia may also occur. Cranial

nerve palsies and pupillary abnormalities usually indicate basilar

meningitis. The Argyll Robertson pupil, which occurs almost exclusively

in neurosyphilis, is a small irregular pupil that accommodates normally

with convergence, but does not react to light.

 

Spinal cord involvement may produce bulbar symptoms, weakness and

wasting of shoulder girdle and arm muscles, slowly progressive spastic

paraplegia with bladder symptoms, and, in rare cases, transverse

myelitis with sudden flaccid paraplegia and loss of sphincter control.

 

Parenchymatous neurosyphilis (general paresis or dementia paralytica),

which generally affects patients in their 40s or 50s, is manifested by

progressive behavioral deterioration and may mimic a psychiatric

illness or Alzheimer's disease. Convulsions, aphasia, or transient

hemiparesis may be present, but irritability, difficulty in

concentrating, deterioration of memory, defective judgment, headaches,

insomnia, or fatigue and lethargy are more common. The patient's

hygiene and grooming deteriorate. Emotional instability, asthenia,

depression, and delusions of grandeur with lack of insight may occur.

 

Physical signs include tremors of the mouth, tongue, outstretched

hands, and whole body; pupillary abnormalities; dysarthria; brisk

tendon reflexes; and, in some cases, extensor plantar responses.

Handwriting usually is shaky and illegible. The posterior column

lesions of tabes dorsalis (locomotor ataxia) result in insidious onset

of pain, ataxia, sensory changes, and loss of tendon reflexes. The

first and most characteristic symptom usually is an intense, stabbing

(lightning) pain in the back and legs that recurs irregularly. Ataxia

of gait, hyperesthesia, and paresthesia may accompany a feeling of

walking on foam rubber. Loss of bladder sensation leads to urine

retention, incontinence, and recurrent infections. Impotence is common.

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

FAX:

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

Although I do find this idea interesting, interesting enough for me to

do some research, there are some issues that should be addressed...

 

1) Syphilis was recognized by the Chinese (without modern techonology)

around the 15th century. So your claim that

" The only logical explanation

in a humoral system of medicine for this pattern is the decline of

essence. "

is IMO suspect... They actaully treated it with mercury etc... and

recognized it as a 'disease'.

 

2) The epidemics that occurred started far after the theories of jing

xu and excessive sex.

3) is there 'evidence' that this was occurring in China 1000-2000

years ago (I didn't see any), and that the s/s could and were mistaken

for jing xu – I re-read your idea, but didn't necessarily buy

it…Although idea it is a good hypothesis. I will admit there is

controversy around the topic, but nothing definitive. And from a

Western science perspective this non-definitiveness should mean

something, correct?

 

But there may be some cases that pop up in China with syphilis 2000

years ago, but I don't see the obvious connection that you see that

they were or could have mistaken this for jing xu…

 

Also as Bob points out I think the direct correlation between east and

west can be suspect.. I think there was much more going into

evaluation of Jing than Syphilis s/s (IMO).. Or possibly evcn just

modern jing xu s/s – This may be political, medicial, meditational,

spiritual… It is hard to say… For example many doctors believed just

excessive sexual DESIRE depleted yuan qi…

 

 

AS far as Europe… " The most widely accepted theory is that the

venereal form of the disease arrived on the shores of Europe along

with Christopher Columbus's crew, when they returned in 1493 from a

journey to the New World. "

 

 

Furthermore,

 

" There are many places throughout the world that have not been

examined for skeletal evidence of syphilis -- China, India, Russia --

so I think it's really dangerous to start hypothesizing about where it

is coming from and at what time, until we have more data. Maybe in ten

years we'll have a better idea. "

 

 

The web had many of these type of quotes, it is just a murky area... I

didn't find anything substantial in relation to China… Did you?

 

 

So yes your hypothesis is interesting, but until more data is in, I

will side with the tradition, the great doctors of the past, the case

studies, my personal experience (and others), and theory... I have

just not seen anything posted here or read otherwise (YET) that gives

any evidence, so as you quote ken wilber, the consensus from the

experts in the field determine the current `truth'… And as you say,

" You can say that the mainstream idea is actually wrong, but I am in

no position to judge such a radical statement, so I view it with

skepticism until the consensus concurs. "

So I have to side with the current consensus and wait for the radical

side to present some substance. But if I missed something major on

your syphilis point, please point it out…

 

And am I right that the only evidence for you (Todd & Others) to be

persuaded would be modern scientific research? And if the research

doesn't exist then, you would have to not believe it, and label it as

superstition? Just curious?

 

-

 

 

 

 

, wrote:

> I submit this because it may constitute evidence in the eyes of some

> members following this thread. due to the rarity of tertiary syphilis

> in the modern world, many people are no longer familiar with the

> ravages of this disease and how the sx resemble many other diseases.

> it is well known that many people in ancient europe suffered from

> conditions that were attributed to many causes in the old humoral

> system (including loss of vital reserves from excessive sex), but which

> were actually due to syphilis. this can actually be determined from

> investigating archaeological remains as the spirochetes leave

> characteristic lesions on the bones. There has much been written about

> he hx of syphilis. this info is not hard to find on the internet.

>

> Note that the primary and secondary lesions of syphilis only occur

> within the first two years of the disease and then often never return.

> the initial chancre heals so quickly, the shortlived sore could easily

> be written off as a consequence of too much sex (chafing in other

> words). In any event, it heals quickly and most men were known to have

> ignored this sign and thus go on to have other sx (until public health

> campaigns of the mid-late 20th century ended this oversight in the

> developed world). While there can be recurring skin rashes for a year

> or two, these also usually disappear and the patient may appear normal

> for many years, even decades. The skin rashes often are associated

> with a range of low grade symptoms that are similar to those seen in

> patients diagnosed with fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, food allergy or

> multiple chemical sensitivity. Later the hair may be begin to fallout.

>

> So the young man who once had a problem with a skin rash and joint pain

> is now an old man. In the mean time, he has continued his life of

> debauchery. He now has any number of unusual neurological and other

> signs resembling many of the most knotty diseases (note all the signs

> of yin xu wind and yang xu cold). Be clear that the s/s mentioned

> below in the late stage are not some sudden acute flareup, but unfold

> as a long drawn out process of decline. The only logical explanation

> in a humoral system of medicine for this pattern is the decline of

> essence. There is just no way any ancient societies actually

> understood the infectious nature of syphilis. So no amount of case

> studies (even 1000's) would have identified this factor, so I find

> reference to the chinese case study literature as some sort of evidence

> to be a specious argument. If one could not identify a disease factor

> such as a STD, then of course one would attribute the disease to other

> causes. Perhaps it is some chronic heat-toxin in the blood that

> actually consumes the essence and it has nothing to do with sexual

> activity, per se. Perhaps we need to wed the wen bing school with the

> kidney school to sort this one out. In any event, FYI:

>

> Primary stage: The primary lesion, or chancre (see Plate 164-1),

> generally evolves and heals within 4 to 8 wk in untreated patients.

> After inoculation, a red papule quickly erodes to form a painless ulcer

> with an indurated base that, when abraded, exudes a clear serum

> containing numerous spirochetes [this happens in less than one week

> usually]. The regional lymph nodes usually enlarge painlessly and are

> firm, discrete, and nontender.

>

> Secondary stage: Cutaneous rashes usually appear within 6 to 12 wk

> after infection and are most florid after 3 to 4 mo. The lesions may be

> transitory or may persist for months. If untreated, they frequently

> heal, but fresh ones may appear within weeks or months. Mild

> constitutional symptoms of fever, malaise, headache, anorexia, nausea,

> achy bones, and fatigability are often present as are anemia, jaundice,

> and albuminuria.

>

> Syphilitic skin rashes may simulate various dermatologic conditions.

> Usually, they are symmetric and more marked on the flexor and volar

> surfaces of the body, especially the palms and soles. The rashes

> generally occur in crops as macules, papules, pustules, or squamous

> lesions. The individual spots are pigmented in blacks and are pinkish

> or pale red in whites. They are round, tend to become confluent and

> indurated, and generally do not itch. They eventually heal, usually

> without scarring but sometimes with areas of residual hyperpigmentation

> or depigmentation.

>

> The mucous membranes frequently erode, forming mucous patches that are

> circular and often grayish white with a red areola. These patches occur

> mostly in the mouth, on the palate, pharynx, or larynx; on the glans

> penis or vulva; or in the anal canal and rectum. Condyloma

> lata--hypertrophic, flattened, dull pink or gray papules at the

> mucocutaneous junctions and in moist areas of the skin--are extremely

> infectious. Hair often falls out in patches, leaving a moth-eaten

> appearance (alopecia areata).

>

> Latent stage: This stage may resolve spontaneously in a few years or

> last for the rest of the patient's life. In the early latent period (<

> 2 yr after infection), infectious mucocutaneous relapses may occur, but

> after 2 yr contagious lesions rarely develop, and the patient appears

> normal. About 1/3 of untreated persons develop late syphilis, though

> perhaps not until many years after the initial infection. In patients

> exposed to antibiotics for other diseases, latent syphilis may be

> cured, which could account for the rarity of late-stage disease in

> developed countries.

>

> Late or tertiary stage: Lesions may be clinically described as (1)

> benign tertiary syphilis of the skin, bone, and viscera, (2)

> cardiovascular syphilis, or (3) neurosyphilis.

>

> Neurosyphilis: Symptomatic neurosyphilis produces various clinical

> syndromes in about 5% of untreated infections.

>

> In meningovascular neurosyphilis, brain involvement is signaled by

> headache, dizziness, poor concentration, lassitude, insomnia, neck

> stiffness, and blurred vision. Mental confusion, epileptiform attacks,

> papilledema, aphasia, and mono- or hemiplegia may also occur. Cranial

> nerve palsies and pupillary abnormalities usually indicate basilar

> meningitis. The Argyll Robertson pupil, which occurs almost exclusively

> in neurosyphilis, is a small irregular pupil that accommodates normally

> with convergence, but does not react to light.

>

> Spinal cord involvement may produce bulbar symptoms, weakness and

> wasting of shoulder girdle and arm muscles, slowly progressive spastic

> paraplegia with bladder symptoms, and, in rare cases, transverse

> myelitis with sudden flaccid paraplegia and loss of sphincter control.

>

> Parenchymatous neurosyphilis (general paresis or dementia paralytica),

> which generally affects patients in their 40s or 50s, is manifested by

> progressive behavioral deterioration and may mimic a psychiatric

> illness or Alzheimer's disease. Convulsions, aphasia, or transient

> hemiparesis may be present, but irritability, difficulty in

> concentrating, deterioration of memory, defective judgment, headaches,

> insomnia, or fatigue and lethargy are more common. The patient's

> hygiene and grooming deteriorate. Emotional instability, asthenia,

> depression, and delusions of grandeur with lack of insight may occur.

>

> Physical signs include tremors of the mouth, tongue, outstretched

> hands, and whole body; pupillary abnormalities; dysarthria; brisk

> tendon reflexes; and, in some cases, extensor plantar responses.

> Handwriting usually is shaky and illegible. The posterior column

> lesions of tabes dorsalis (locomotor ataxia) result in insidious onset

> of pain, ataxia, sensory changes, and loss of tendon reflexes. The

> first and most characteristic symptom usually is an intense, stabbing

> (lightning) pain in the back and legs that recurs irregularly. Ataxia

> of gait, hyperesthesia, and paresthesia may accompany a feeling of

> walking on foam rubber. Loss of bladder sensation leads to urine

> retention, incontinence, and recurrent infections. Impotence is common.

>

>

> Chinese Herbs

>

> FAX:

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have

[Guest guest]

They actually treated it with mercury etc... and

recognized it as a 'disease'.

 

>>>>>Jason is there any record of the progression of syphilis and its sexual

origin in CM? I do not think so. There is not idea of the relation of sores and

then many years later brain effects is there?

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...>

wrote:

 

> >>>>>Jason is there any record of the progression of syphilis and its sexual

origin in CM? I do not think so. There is not idea of the relation of sores and

then many years later brain effects is there?

> Alon

 

 

There was definitely no recognition of these things by any culture prior to the

20th century. And mercury actually exacerbates the neuro progression

without destroying the spirochetes, so all this proves is that there may have

also been iatrogenesis involved as well. Still not compelling to me. My hunch

would be that any recognition of syphilis and the use of mercury to treat it

came quite late in CM history. what is the earliest reference to this.

Syphilis

has been a scourge for 1000's of years.

 

[Guest guest]

, " "

wrote:

> , " Alon Marcus "

<alonmarcus@w...>

> wrote:

>

> > >>>>>Jason is there any record of the progression of syphilis and

its sexual

> origin in CM? I do not think so. There is not idea of the relation

of sores and

> then many years later brain effects is there?

> > Alon

>

>

> There was definitely no recognition of these things by any culture

prior to the

> 20th century.

 

As far as the link between sex and syphilis… definitely in the 1800's

the west knew… and I am unsure about China…

 

I.e.

Ravages of Venereal Disease

The cleanliness of the sexual habits observed by the Chinese was

thwarted during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries by outbreaks

of syphilis that ravaged the country. The disease appears to have

spread from the southern coastal region of Canton. Physicians of the

period devoted much effort to combating syphilis and two notables were

Wang Ji and Chen Sicheng.

 

" During the sixteenth century, it was not just a matter involving

sexual activity and reproduction. The possibility of contracting

syphilis meant that there was no safe way to have sex. Some daughters

may not have been told about the drugs to take to avoid pregnancy for

fear that this assurance could lead to sexual activity and potentially

fatal consequences. " page 157

 

 

And mercury actually exacerbates the neuro progression

> without destroying the spirochetes, so all this proves is that there

may have

> also been iatrogenesis involved as well. Still not compelling to

me. My hunch

> would be that any recognition of syphilis and the use of mercury to

treat it

> came quite late in CM history. what is the earliest reference to this.

 

1600's

 

Syphilis

> has been a scourge for 1000's of years.

>

 

 

1000's of years in China??? Not sure about, especially in STD form...

I.e. from one of my medical anthropology books it states that a)

original & evolution is a long-standing controversy. b) very possible

that a nonsexual strain existed prior to the explosion in Europe - It

transformed into the STD later on 15th century.... If it wasn't even

a STD prior to 1500 then the argument is shot.

 

For the argument to hold we would have to know a few things.

 

a) That syphilis was rampant enough to affect a large amount of people

1000's of years ago. Not just prior to 1500's. – I can't seem to find

any evidence of this…

b) It would have to have been in STD form.

c) doctors would have to ignore it's NON-JING XU presentation with

lesions etc. treat this (with whatever way they thought possible) and

then later in life when these people are older forget about the

previous disease... and they would have to present as jing xu s/s more

than the regular population.

A culture who is really into etiologies, lurking pathogens, etc I find

it hard to believe that they wouldn't consider such a disease that

manifests so blatantly...

d) The point of the mercury, was that it wasn't presenting as an

initial JingXu paterrn, and it was pretty severe... This must be

remembered (by the doctor/ patient)...

e) since the disease does manifest itself with many non-jing xu

patterns, I would guess that there later in life patterns would be

more about some of these patterns…?

f) Obviously the people having the most sex will probably get the most

STD's. So excessive sex would have to mean multiple partners not just

number of times with one partner… that is reasonable…

g) it would have to manifest as jing xu if untreated…

Modern source:

" Latent syphilis- If untreated, syphilis may lapse into a latent stage

during which the disease is no longer contagious and no symptoms are

present. Many people who are not treated will suffer from no further

signs and symptoms of the disease… "

" In its late stages, untreated syphilis, although not contagious, can

cause serious heart abnormalities, mental disorders, blindness, other

neurologic problems, and death. "

 

 

The mere fact the disease was said to have `…stigmatized many more

before the advent of antibiotics. " means that it was clear that people

were getting something, STD or not… It seems evident it wasn't some

slow jing xu progression.

Didn't syphilis also kill many many people. A disease this strong

would get a reputation, no? meaning if you survived it you were

labeled? Like a survivor of Cancer.. Maybe I am MSUing here, but it

makes sense, comments?

 

 

 

WOOOOO that is enough for now….

 

Just some thoughts...

 

-