Teapills, granulars vs bulk

[Guest guest]

, Steven Slater

<dragonslive@i...> wrote:

> This thread raises many issues I am also battling with as a new

> practitioner. I am currently deciding whether to invest in a full raw

> herb pharmacy or high quality powder extracts and pills/capsules.

>

> I find it fascinating when people say that the recommended dosage is

> too small and yet pills (concentrated or otherwise) are then said to be

> less effective. I wonder if a more reasonable dosage based on clinical

> reality would still be considered far less effective than a raw herb

> decoction. Shouldn't we as practitioners automatically adjust dosage to

> produce a healing response? Why would we even consider prescribing

> something that is so ineffective if given at recommended dosage? That

> borders on quack medicine to me and raises serious issues of ethics in

> my mind.

>

> In other words, if we use an appropriate dosage of pills rather than

> the " safe " labeling system will pills be comparable to decoctions in

> efficacy? Or does this result in the costs being prohibitive to the

> patient thus making decoctions both the most effective clinically and

> financially to the patient?

>

> Steve

>

 

I think there is an issue besides dosage... That is the processing of

the herbs... Granulars are not the same as raw. The dose may be the

same mathematically, but I have also pulled the old switch on

vacations or just because the patient was tired of cooking, and the

effects are different.. Sometimes they get reactions (from the

binders>??) or who knows... there is definitely as difference,

although it might be different. Sometimes, there is no difference at

all. Just processing herbs differently (traditionally) i.e. dry fry,

etc, changes the properties.. I think the granular process slightly

changes things, I just do not how.

 

AS far as Tea Pills, - when directly comparing them with decoctions,

we have a different process of extraction. Water (15-90 minutes of

cook) and the raw herb hitting the GI tract. The amount of herb that

one actually ingests in teapills in small in comparison. I assume

there is around 25-50 grams of herbs in a bottle of 200 teapills. If

one takes a whole bottle over one week that is about 3-6 grams of

herbs today. A typical decoction is around 100 to 150 grams for two

days. I think it is clear that some formulas are just not going to be

effective, not only in this form, but at this level of dosage.

 

 

Historically, It is my understanding that tea pills became famous in

the early part of the 20th-century because of the fact they started

mixing pharmaceuticals into them. People use to travel from town to

town selling their latest and greatest tea pill. Many of these pills

gained quite a reputation because of their effectiveness. Obviously

the teapills without the pharmaceuticals do not have as great of an

effect.

 

I do think there is somewhat of an ethical issue for certain

conditions giving teapills... there is no history behind it, and no

research, and I personally have seen too many eaten pills with no

effect... (and yes teapills do have historical record for some

conditions - usually chronic) also it is my understanding the pills

that were traditionally made were much bigger... Can someone confirm this?

 

I for one very rarely prescribe teapills. (sometimes an mian pian)

I prescribe about 10% granulars and the rest Bulk.

 

-

[Guest guest]

One of my major concerns with granules/powders is the seemingly low

dosages recommended by the companies themselves. These are far lower

than the actual usage of the same products in china and clouded in

questionable claims in their marketing in an attempt to separate their

particular brand from the field.

 

I am specifically talking about my experience with the Australian

market. We do not have the range of brands the US has but the major

players here seem to be KODA, Ming Tong, Sun Ten and products from the

TianJiang and Yi Fang (E-Fong) companies.

 

Generally all these companies say that 6g total of a formula given in

two 3g doses per day is the average requirement for clinical effect.

All these companies produce the average 5:1 concentrates but all claim

more efficient technologies and better results than the other (of

course!).

 

They justify this seemingly low dosage by claiming that traditional

decoctions only produce between 35% and 50% of active ingredients into

solution for consumption whereas the powders are far better absorbed

into the body.

 

Subsequently, the initial math of 6g and 5:1 concentration giving a

dosage of 30g of raw herb equivalent per day is now increased 2 or 3

fold to 60 (decoction only 50%) or 90g (decoction only 35%) a day of

raw herb in decoction.

 

I have not seen any actual evidence of such claims about the

bioavailability of actives from decoctions versus powders so I am still

somewhat skeptical of these claims.

 

What makes me EXTRA skeptical is the fact that when I worked in china

and nanjing provincial TCM hospital we also used TianJiang powders. The

difference being that these were prescribed in individual sachets

containing the equivalent of the average daily dosage of each herb.

 

This may at first seem irrelevant to how the same product is marketed

in the west until one looks at the individual contents of these sachets

ie.

 

Dang Gui 4g power = 10g raw

Shu Di 3g powder = 10g raw

Bo He 0.5g powder = 6g raw

 

Helllloooooo!!!

 

Where has the 5:1 idea gone? The 5:1 is apparently an average overall

and does not indicate the true concentrations and thus dosage relevant

for proper clinic usage!!!

 

I never heard nor saw adjustment for powder versus decoction

bioavailability during my time in china(2002). In fact just yesterday I

asked one of my doctors at this hospital about possible reasons for the

marketing change here in the west.......they have no idea. He writes

the prescription as he would raw herbs; that is average of 10g per herb

and maybe 10-12 herbs per formula and the pharmacy just throws the

equivalent as written on the sachet for each herb into a paper bag for

the patient.

 

These individual sachets are the method of prescription at this

hospital for powders rather than the 100g bottle system used here.

Total powder dosage is usually around 20-30g per day for these powders

in an average sized formula. That is 3-6 times the 6g recommended in

the west for what I assume is the same product.

 

Am I missing something?

 

Anyone else confused about why we/I am told 6g is enough?

 

No matter how many herbs are in a formula and how this lowers the

relative dosage of each the more herbs are used?

 

And how each herb can differ from a 12:1 concentration (bo he above) to

around 2:1 (Dang Gui above) and what this would actually do to our

internal formula ratios?

 

Yes, I am frustrated trying to find the relative " truth " here and I beg

your forgiveness for my possible ranting.

 

Any help here from more experienced and/or knowledgeable list members

is humbly requested-!!

 

How do uses on the list actually dose 5;1 concentrates clinically? At 5

to 1 or do they consider the issue of differences in bioavailability?

 

 

Best WIshes,

 

Steve

 

 

>

> I think there is an issue besides dosage... That is the processing of

> the herbs... Granulars are not the same as raw. The dose may be the

> same mathematically, but I have also pulled the old switch on

> I for one very rarely prescribe teapills. (sometimes an mian pian)

 

> I prescribe about 10% granulars and the rest Bulk.

> ..............

.....

 

> -

>

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services,

> including board approved continuing education classes, an annual

> conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

For me it's not the dosage issue but the appropriateness to chief complaint. For

some

one who is stressed and angry, patent Xiao Yao can be effective, ditto for Gan

Mai Da

Zao for the right type of crying, Er Chen Wan for phlegm nausea etc.... However

if

there is yin xu night sweating or severe liver overacting pain then the raw

herbs are

the only thing to use. Of course the same for " deep " systemic diseases and

dermatology. Once I think about it, if the disease is showing on the body,

edema,

purpura, sweating, juandice, then I am more likely to insist on raw herbs.

 

Again, my position is that patents with the correct diagnosis can shift the body

in the

right direction so that hitting hard with raw herbs is not always neccesary or

appropriate. And often I use half the amount reccomended on the bottle.

 

I'm not sure that one can say that pills have no history. Many of the formulas

in

Bensky involve some sort of pill making. Of course there weren't pharmaceuticals

in

them but pill making has a long history. Tibetan medicine, I believe, only uses

them.

doug

 

>

> Historically, It is my understanding that tea pills became famous in

> the early part of the 20th-century because of the fact they started

> mixing pharmaceuticals into them. People use to travel from town to

> town selling their latest and greatest tea pill. Many of these pills

> gained quite a reputation because of their effectiveness. Obviously

> the teapills without the pharmaceuticals do not have as great of an

> effect.

>

> I do think there is somewhat of an ethical issue for certain

> conditions giving teapills... there is no history behind it, and no

> research, and I personally have seen too many eaten pills with no

> effect... (and yes teapills do have historical record for some

> conditions - usually chronic) also it is my understanding the pills

> that were traditionally made were much bigger... Can someone confirm this?

>

> I for one very rarely prescribe teapills. (sometimes an mian pian)

> I prescribe about 10% granulars and the rest Bulk.

>

> -

[Guest guest]

Of course the same for " deep " systemic diseases and

dermatology. Once I think about it, if the disease is showing on the body,

edema,

purpura, sweating, juandice, then I am more likely to insist on raw herbs.

>>>Have you tried higher doses of powders?

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " "

<@h...> wrote:

 

> AS far as Tea Pills, - when directly comparing them with decoctions,

> we have a different process of extraction. Water (15-90 minutes of

> cook) and the raw herb hitting the GI tract. The amount of herb that

> one actually ingests in teapills in small in comparison. I assume

> there is around 25-50 grams of herbs in a bottle of 200 teapills. If

> one takes a whole bottle over one week that is about 3-6 grams of

> herbs today. A typical decoction is around 100 to 150 grams for two

> days. I think it is clear that some formulas are just not going to be

> effective, not only in this form, but at this level of dosage.

 

A decoction cannot contain 100-150 grams of herbs for 2 days. You may

start out with that much, but then only residue from the herbs floats

out into the liquid. If this residue was processed out, then how much

herbs would really be there?

 

Likewise, isn't it the residue that is used to make the teapills? I

wonder how much residue would come from a decotion of 100-150 grams of

herbs vs. that of 48 tea pills (2 days worth).

 

What you said about ethics, though, is compelling and deserving of though.

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

Steve

 

this is one of the most relevant posts I have seen on this subject in years.

one of the common reasons that high dose individual herb combining with

granules is dismissed is because they don't do it this way in Taiwan and the

granule company reps freak out whenthey hear about it. we can now bury that

argument as I have always argued that we are adapting ganules to TCM, not

using them for kanpo. the fact that they use equivalent decoction doses in the

PRC is also relevant to me. I think subhuti, who popularized this style of

practice in the US, is now completely vindicated.

 

As subhuti's files attest, 1000's of patients around the world have been

treated this way. SD has recommended 20 g per day of powders for over a

decade and I have always prescribed this way. when I had an inhouse granule

pharmacy, I could still make a profit at this dose. However using an outsource

pharmacy makes the price too high for patients. I notice some such

pharmacies are attempting to circumvent this by parroting the dose info from

the manufacturer. However these doses do not work in acute or severe sx. So

people end up underdosing the patients.

 

we have access to such an outsource pharmacy at PCOM, but I stopped using it

a long time ago because of the cost-effectiveness issue. It is hard to justify

having the patient spend 30 bucks a week. an article in acutoday written by a

man with a vested interest in such a pharmacy tried to make the case that you

better off using an outsource pharmacy (his, in other words). I guess it

depends on whether YOU want to BOTH make money and see your patients get

well. Maintaining an inhouse powder pharmacy is not much work for the profit

and well worth it. so get a powder pharmacy and to ITM's start

group.

 

, Steven Slater <dragonslive@i...>

wrote:

 

>

> What makes me EXTRA skeptical is the fact that when I worked in china

> and nanjing provincial TCM hospital we also used TianJiang powders. The

> difference being that these were prescribed in individual sachets

> containing the equivalent of the average daily dosage of each herb.

>

> This may at first seem irrelevant to how the same product is marketed

> in the west until one looks at the individual contents of these sachets

> ie.

>

> Dang Gui 4g power = 10g raw

> Shu Di 3g powder = 10g raw

> Bo He 0.5g powder = 6g raw

 

>

> Where has the 5:1 idea gone? The 5:1 is apparently an average overall

> and does not indicate the true concentrations and thus dosage relevant

> for proper clinic usage!!!

>

[Guest guest]

, Steven Slater <dragonslive@i...>

wrote:

 

>

> And how each herb can differ from a 12:1 concentration (bo he above) to

> around 2:1 (Dang Gui above) and what this would actually do to our

> internal formula ratios?

 

Those are the ratios for a given company, I would assume. It is really lame

that the taiwanese companies will not reveal this data and then say its

because this is the wrong way to prescribe anyway. can you get me in touch

with the PRC company that provides this data.

 

the taiwanese companies also shoot for target ranges of active ingredients,

rather than just concentrating the herb a specific amount. Perhaps there is

just not that much stuff in bo he (by weight, that is; volatile oils are potent

at low doses). Whereas maybe dang gui is dense with heavier biochemicals.

Its looks like the PRC company just sidestepped the issue of standard

concentrations and just produced products and set the dose equivalent. This

works for me.

 

[Guest guest]

, " "

wrote:

 

> well. Maintaining an inhouse powder pharmacy is not much work for

the profit

> and well worth it. so get a powder pharmacy and to ITM's

start

> group.

 

Excuse my ignorance on this one, but I have been reading this offshoot

thread, and the words powder and granules have been used

interchangably in the other posts.

 

I guess I am no longer certain of the differences if any. I always

imaginged that powders were just the herbs themselves, powdered, so

that it was the whole herb and in no way could be concentrated. I

imagined the granules (which I have taken back in the 90's) as being

like instant coffee, a dried product made from a liquid decotion, that

would reconstitute when combined with water. These granules then,

depending on the strength of the decoction, could claim to be

concentrated to varying degrees.

 

Could someone clarify this for me?

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

On 04/02/2004, at 4:55 AM, wrote:

 

>

> Steve

>

> this is one of the most relevant posts I have seen on this subject in

> years.

 

Thanks for the advice Todd.

 

This gives me some more confidence in my belief that there is a serious

marketing issue within the concentrated powder industry that needs to

be brought to the awareness of TCM practitioners for the benefit of TCM

and most importantly........for the best health of our patients.

 

I would greatly appreciate if you (or other list members) could advise

me on how to deal with the different concentration ratios that are

produced within one company, and perhaps more to the point......how did

you find out? I attempted to contact TianJiang directly but they

wouldn't help and just referred me to their Australian reseller who

advertises the 6g a day line (admittedly they recommended increasing

dosage up to 9-15g for acute cases). The australian distributer does

not have single sachet forms available so I can not determine it that

way. As helpful as my chinese doctor friends can be....I do not wish to

ask them to write down every ratio from the sachet pharmacy (lol).

 

I am concerned about the relative concentration ratio especially when

attempted to use traditional formula which are often design on the

ratio between 2 or more herbs to produce a very specific action.

 

Also, is it really possible to concentrate a mineral or shell????

 

> Maintaining an inhouse powder pharmacy is not much work for the profit

> and well worth it. so get a powder pharmacy and to ITM's

> start

> group.

 

 

 

Please excuse my naivity; but what is ITM's start group?

 

Thanks again,

 

Steve

 

 

> , Steven Slater

> <dragonslive@i...>

> wrote:

>

>>

>> What makes me EXTRA skeptical is the fact that when I worked in china

>> and nanjing provincial TCM hospital we also used TianJiang powders.

>> The

>> difference being that these were prescribed in individual sachets

>> containing the equivalent of the average daily dosage of each herb.

>>

>> This may at first seem irrelevant to how the same product is marketed

>> in the west until one looks at the individual contents of these

>> sachets

>> ie.

>>

>> Dang Gui 4g power = 10g raw

>> Shu Di 3g powder = 10g raw

>> Bo He 0.5g powder = 6g raw

>

>>

>> Where has the 5:1 idea gone? The 5:1 is apparently an average overall

>> and does not indicate the true concentrations and thus dosage relevant

>> for proper clinic usage!!!

>>

>

[Guest guest]

 

 

It seems we are cross posting due to the slight delay in messages

getting online.

 

I got this information directly off the sachet's used at the hospital

(jiang su sheng zhong yi yuan) two days ago via a doctor there who was

kind enough to purchase them to give me an answer to my suspicions on

this issue.

 

As I said in a post that will get on list before this one (if that

makes sense) I tried to contact the company who supply this hospital

(and over 300 others in china according to their advertising) directly

yesterday. My friend was given the cold shoulder and told to call the

Australian Rep. who only sells 100g bottles.

 

Some info on TianJiang Pharmaceutical Co. Jiang Su, China.

http://www.tianjiang.com

Also http://www.e-fong.com may be of interest.

 

Could you fill me in a little (offlist if more appropriate) of your

experiences with the quality of various powder companies?

 

Steve

 

On 04/02/2004, at 5:16 AM, wrote:

 

> , Steven Slater

> <dragonslive@i...>

> wrote:

>

>>

>> And how each herb can differ from a 12:1 concentration (bo he above)

>> to

>> around 2:1 (Dang Gui above) and what this would actually do to our

>> internal formula ratios?

>

> Those are the ratios for a given company, I would assume. It is

> really lame

> that the taiwanese companies will not reveal this data and then say its

> because this is the wrong way to prescribe anyway. can you get me in

> touch

> with the PRC company that provides this data.

>

> the taiwanese companies also shoot for target ranges of active

> ingredients,

> rather than just concentrating the herb a specific amount. Perhaps

> there is

> just not that much stuff in bo he (by weight, that is; volatile oils

> are potent

> at low doses). Whereas maybe dang gui is dense with heavier

> biochemicals.

> Its looks like the PRC company just sidestepped the issue of standard

> concentrations and just produced products and set the dose equivalent.

> This

> works for me.

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services,

> including board approved continuing education classes, an annual

> conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

When I speak of powders I am referring to concentrated extracts which

are produced in very fine powder form. I assume these are the same as

chong ji (granules) but are finer in grain and possibly with less

filler.

 

Steve

 

 

On 04/02/2004, at 5:17 AM, bcataiji wrote:

 

> , " "

> wrote:

>

>> well. Maintaining an inhouse powder pharmacy is not much work for

> the profit

>> and well worth it. so get a powder pharmacy and to ITM's

> start

>> group.

>

> Excuse my ignorance on this one, but I have been reading this offshoot

> thread, and the words powder and granules have been used

> interchangably in the other posts.

>

> I guess I am no longer certain of the differences if any. I always

> imaginged that powders were just the herbs themselves, powdered, so

> that it was the whole herb and in no way could be concentrated. I

> imagined the granules (which I have taken back in the 90's) as being

> like instant coffee, a dried product made from a liquid decotion, that

> would reconstitute when combined with water. These granules then,

> depending on the strength of the decoction, could claim to be

> concentrated to varying degrees.

>

> Could someone clarify this for me?

>

> Brian C. Allen

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services,

> including board approved continuing education classes, an annual

> conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am concerned about the relative concentration ratio especially when

attempted to use traditional formula which are often design on the

ratio between 2 or more herbs to produce a very specific action.

>>>>>>What do you want to know? I can only speak about ShengCheng or quliherbs

as they are the only factory I have Vistide and know detailed information.

 

Also, is it really possible to concentrate a mineral or shell????

>>>Not really but you would probably andup with more active ingredients in the

powders than in Bolk herb teas, since you cant relay cook it out as well.

Alon

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

that the Taiwanese companies will not reveal this data and then say its

> because this is the wrong way to prescribe anyway. can you get me in

> touch

> with the PRC company that provides this data

 

>>>>>I have this data for many formulas from Sheng Cheng. They do give it out on

most Taiwanese labels. ie the total raw herbs, total carriers and final ratio

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

, Steven Slater

<dragonslive@i...> wrote:

> When I speak of powders I am referring to concentrated extracts which

> are produced in very fine powder form. I assume these are the same as

> chong ji (granules) but are finer in grain and possibly with less

> filler.

>

> Steve

 

Thanks for the information. This is interesting because one could

just use a very fine powder of the whole herb (taken as a draft) and

this would require a much lower dose than whole herb in decoction

also. I wonder how much difference there is in dosage between the

powdered whole herb and the powdered granules of which you speak.

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

Hi Alon,

 

I am not familiar with either ShengCheng or qualiherbs as I don't think

they are available in Australia unless they are re-branded. The

suppliers I know here are Ming Tong, Koda (both Taiwan), Chinawest

(tianjiang), yi fang (e-fong), Sun Ten, Cathay Herbal (china), Green

Medicine (china), Herbal International (china) and possibly KFC(?).

 

Best WIshes,

 

Steve

 

On 04/02/2004, at 7:08 AM, ALON MARCUS wrote:

 

> I am concerned about the relative concentration ratio especially when

> attempted to use traditional formula which are often design on the

> ratio between 2 or more herbs to produce a very specific action.

>>>>>>> What do you want to know? I can only speak about ShengCheng or

>>>>>>> quliherbs as they are the only factory I have Vistide and know

>>>>>>> detailed information.

>

> Also, is it really possible to concentrate a mineral or shell????

>>>> Not really but you would probably andup with more active

>>>> ingredients in the powders than in Bolk herb teas, since you cant

>>>> relay cook it out as well.

> Alon

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

 

 

What is ITM's start group, and how does one ?

 

< wrote:

 

Maintaining an inhouse powder pharmacy is not much work for the profit

and well worth it. so get a powder pharmacy and to ITM's start

group.

 

 

 

 

SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

What is ITM's start group, and how does one ?

 

 

 

< wrote:

 

Maintaining an inhouse powder pharmacy is not much work for the profit

and well worth it. so get a powder pharmacy and to ITM's start

group.

 

 

 

 

SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!

 

 

[Guest guest]

To give the list a clear indication as to what I mean about the

marketing of concentrates I have included a excerpt from an un-named

company.....

 

" ....that the final product if concentrated 6:1 (crude to

extract.........

 

......The 6:1 chinese herbal product is the highest concentration ratio

that can be consistently achieved with the most up to date technology

in CHina at the present time. In the past some Chinese factories have

quoted the concentration of the syrup, before spray-drying, as the

formula's concentration ratio. When estimating the correct dosage of a

formula, the issue of clinical equivalence is extremely important and

is a separate consideration from the concentration ratio. Due to the

efficiency of the production process, the amount of crude herbs that is

clinically equivalent to one gram of herbal concentrate is slightly

more than double that of the concentration ratio. Thus, in a clinical

situation, one gram of 6:1 herbal extract is equivalent to over 12

grams of raw herbs when given by decoction.

 

In addition to the above consideration, cultural differences also need

to be taken into account. The dosages that are used in China today are

generally regarded as too high for Western patients, who have had no

prior exposure to Chinese herbs. Western practitioners find that good

clinical results are achieved with dosages that are 50% to 70% of the

dosages that are recommended in modern Chinese pharmacopeias.

The other important criterion for dosages is the stage of treatment and

the nature of the disease. In the acute stage of a disease and the

early stages of treatment the dosages prescribed should be higher by a

factor of 50%-100%. "

 

FYI the recommended dosage of this product is 5g twice a day....10g

total.

 

Notice there is no mention of differing concentration ratio's for

different herbs from this company.

 

Anyone care to comment on the validity of these claims? Especially the

doubling of the clinical efficacy of the extract compared to raw

(giving 12:1) and the claim that Westerners only need 50%-70% the

dosage needed for chinese people?

 

I would think our greater average body size would be an extra

consideration in dosage range also.

 

I look forward to any comment on these issues from the list.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Steve

 

 

[Guest guest]

One of my major concerns with granules/powders is the seemingly low

dosages recommended by the companies themselves. These are far lower

than the actual usage of the same products in china and clouded in

questionable claims in their marketing in an attempt to separate their

particular brand from the field.

>>>>There is a strong Japanese influence in Taiwan and the Japanese do not use

the large doses used in China.

Koda has many herbs that are actually much more that 5 to 1. I have seen Bo He

from coda as high as 20 to 1 if i remember correctly.

Alon

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Those are the ratios for a given company, I would assume. It is really lame

that the Taiwanese companies will not reveal this data and then say its

because this is the wrong way to prescribe anyway. can you get me in touch

with the PRC company that provides this data

>>>>>Todd you are wrong they do give this data but not outside Taiwan. For some

reason they think we do not know how to use the powders and that in reality they

are different than decoctions. When i pressure as to why they really do not have

a good reason. At the same time i have seen many Dr give as much as 20g per day

of the powders in Taiwan.

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Feb 3, 2004, at 10:46 AM, Steven Slater wrote:

 

> Some info on TianJiang Pharmaceutical Co. Jiang Su, China.

> http://www.tianjiang.com

 

TianJiang's distributor in the USA is Blue Light Inc.

(888) 258-3548

They only sell the 100 gram of powder bottles (or in capsules) however

there is a distributor for TianJiang in Santa Monica who sells the

small packets. I don't deal with them, but as I recall, they're called

Kangji or Kangli.

 

Anybody in Santa Monica know for sure?

 

--

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

-Adlai Stevenson

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

I would greatly appreciate it if you called forward to me any data

regarding KODA products either here or off list.

 

Thanks,

 

Steve

 

On 04/02/2004, at 8:59 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> One of my major concerns with granules/powders is the seemingly low

> dosages recommended by the companies themselves. These are far lower

> than the actual usage of the same products in china and clouded in

> questionable claims in their marketing in an attempt to separate their

> particular brand from the field.

>>>>> There is a strong Japanese influence in Taiwan and the Japanese do

>>>>> not use the large doses used in China.

> Koda has many herbs that are actually much more that 5 to 1. I have

> seen Bo He from coda as high as 20 to 1 if i remember correctly.

> Alon

>

[Guest guest]

Anyone care to comment on the validity of these claims? Especially the

doubling of the clinical efficacy of the extract compared to raw

(giving 12:1) and the claim that Westerners only need 50%-70% the

dosage needed for Chinese people?

 

>>>>>I have heard that westerners need smaller doses from several Chinese Dr in

US. The most important question however is the quality of the raw materials.

20:1 of shit is still shit. Most of the best quality herbs are said to be

exported out of china which is another explanation i have heard for the high

dosage used in modern china (which is higher than historical dosages). I can

only speak about quality of raw materials in one hospital in China and it was

definitely not as good as you get in the bay area (20 years ago).

One thing that is true is that with the modern extraction methods you get higher

levels of volatile oils

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

I would greatly appreciate it if you called forward to me any data

regarding KODA products either here or off list.

 

>>>>>I really do not know except that they have a very good reputation. The

other thing is that i have compared the taste of several brands and often they

were definitely the strongest tasting. One the Taiwanese labels they often have

a higher concentration than their competitors. I believe they are the most

expensive as well.

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " "

wrote:

 

>

> I'm not sure that one can say that pills have no history. Many of

the formulas in

> Bensky involve some sort of pill making. Of course there weren't

pharmaceuticals in

> them but pill making has a long history. Tibetan medicine, I

believe, only uses them.

> doug

>

 

Doug,

 

Just to set the record straight, I was not implying that pills have no

history. They have been used for a long time. But, I have read

(can't remember where, maybe unshuld?) that teapills became extremely

popular (famous) when pharmaceuticals were added in the 20th century)

– They definitely were used before that, just not as much… Also what I

would like to know is was there a difference in size.

 

-Jason

 

> >

> > Historically, It is my understanding that tea pills became famous in

> > the early part of the 20th-century because of the fact they started

> > mixing pharmaceuticals into them. People use to travel from town to

> > town selling their latest and greatest tea pill. Many of these pills

> > gained quite a reputation because of their effectiveness. Obviously

> > the teapills without the pharmaceuticals do not have as great of an

> > effect.

> >

> > I do think there is somewhat of an ethical issue for certain

> > conditions giving teapills... there is no history behind it, and no

> > research, and I personally have seen too many eaten pills with no

> > effect... (and yes teapills do have historical record for some

> > conditions - usually chronic) also it is my understanding the pills

> > that were traditionally made were much bigger... Can someone

confirm this?

> >

> > I for one very rarely prescribe teapills. (sometimes an mian pian)

> > I prescribe about 10% granulars and the rest Bulk.

> >

> > -