What's in a teapill / granule / powder

[Guest guest]

Yes - the granulars are produced in about the same way. I'm sure there

could be some differences, but nothing major. 'Same liquid

concentration'?? I don't know what that means. If you are referring to

those ratio things - I would suspect they are about the same when

comparing individual herbs d/t solubility in water etc. Cheap? Basic

economics of supply and demand. Lan Zhou producing 12 million pills a

day can sell for a LOT less than some factory selling a much lower

volume of granulars. Think about how many people in China (or here)

just self medicate with teapills. Basically nobody self medicates with

granules. The pills are also run through HPLC, pesticide, mold, etc

testing. A teacher of mine who visited the factory said they were far

beyond the people in the States making pills. Their factory was

following something like pharmacutical grade manufacturing standards.

 

Geoff

 

> __________

>

> Message: 3

> Thu, 05 Feb 2004 13:20:22 -0000

> " " <

> Re: What's in a teapill / granule / powder

> (was:Teapills, granulars vs bulk)

>

> Are you suggesting that manufactures use the same procedure for

> granulars and teapills? OR should I say same liquid concentration?

> This is hard to believe since teapills are incredibly lower in price

> and much less potent (IMO). could you, or someone elaborate on the

> difference in processes of these two? It seems modern granular

> technology is pretty high tech now...?? Thanx,

>

> -

[Guest guest]

A teacher of mine who visited the factory said they were far

beyond the people in the States making pills. Their factory was

following something like pharmacutical grade manufacturing standards.

>>>They are GMP but there is a difference between concentrates. Minshen claims

they are about 2:1 or 3:1 because they way they cook the powders, however they

use the same materials cooked to reconstitute the pills. With the herb

powders/granules they actually use a highly concentrate " mother " fluid extract

and spray it on a carrier.

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Warren,

Refer to 'Chinese Patent Medicines' by Taylor. There's a detailed

description of how the pills are made, which I grossly summarized in my

previous post - your assumption is incorrect.

Geoff

 

> __________

>

> Message: 4

> Thu, 05 Feb 2004 16:17:54 -0000

> " wsheir " <wsheir

> Re: What's in a teapill / granule / powder

> (was:Teapills, granulars vs bulk)

>

> Geoff,

> As Jason just brought up,your description of how tea pills are made

> doesn't make sense. It's my understanding that these pills are made

> from raw herbs that have been ground up into a very fine powder and

> then coated.They have not been cooked and there is no concentration

> of the materials. Bioavailability of some of the ingredients may be

> greater in this powder form but remeber you are using much less than

> 10 per cent of the dose of a typical raw herb formula. I have seen no

> credible evidence that these pills are effective. Have you seen even

> one study from China using these pills to treat an illness?

>

> Warren

[Guest guest]

-Geoff:

That would mean Subhuti's assumtions are wrong too, and I'm not so

sure of that.

But assuming you are right(which I don't), how do you know the dosage

of the herbs you are giving? And if you can't accurately calculate

dosage, how do you ethically and otherwise rationalize prescribing

something not knowing how much is in there?

Warren

 

 

> Warren,

> Refer to 'Chinese Patent Medicines' by Taylor. There's a detailed

> description of how the pills are made, which I grossly summarized

in my

> previous post - your assumption is incorrect.

> Geoff

>

> > __________

> >

> > Message: 4

> > Thu, 05 Feb 2004 16:17:54 -0000

> > " wsheir " <wsheir>

> > Re: What's in a teapill / granule / powder

> > (was:Teapills, granulars vs bulk)

> >

> > Geoff,

> > As Jason just brought up,your description of how tea pills are

made

> > doesn't make sense. It's my understanding that these pills are

made

> > from raw herbs that have been ground up into a very fine powder

and

> > then coated.They have not been cooked and there is no

concentration

> > of the materials. Bioavailability of some of the ingredients may

be

> > greater in this powder form but remeber you are using much less

than

> > 10 per cent of the dose of a typical raw herb formula. I have

seen no

> > credible evidence that these pills are effective. Have you seen

even

> > one study from China using these pills to treat an illness?

> >

> > Warren

[Guest guest]

My only assumption is that Taylor is accurately reporting the modern

pill making process at Lan Zhou, which jives with what I've heard from

others. Dosages are given on the side of the bottle as percent of

compositon. It would be easy to calculate the actual dosage, if one

thought it necessary.

 

Now, do you think that by calculating the the exact extraction ratio of

a particular herb and it's total weight in each pill is going to be more

accurate than dosing with raw herbs? When you get into quality

differences of raw herbs, nobody is going to be 'accurate'. It just is

not possible, sorry. People can think they are being accurate and

thinking there's a difference between a raw formual with 5 or 6 grams of

bai shao or what ever, but reality is that experienced practitioners

adjust when they put formulas together depending on their preception of

the quality of the herbs used. It's totally subjective. Plants are

living things and therefore dynamic in nature and medicinal potency. I

don't see an ethical dilema here - unless you were to turn the story

around and ask how could practitioners perscribe a formula without

adjusting for the quality of the herb used? I'm sure it's easy to see

it can become 'ten thousand things' very quickly! Luckily, with either

method, I don't think it's really necessary to split fine hairs over

this - both methods work fine.

 

Scanning Subhuti's article I don't see Lan Zhou Fo Ci mentioned. It

appears he is talking about traditional pill preperation, but we're not

talking about traditional pill preperation, therefore his assumptions

seem just fine for what he's talking about.

Geoff

 

 

> __________

>

> Message: 11

> Thu, 05 Feb 2004 23:38:05 -0000

> " wsheir " <wsheir

> Re: What's in a teapill / granule / powder

>

> -Geoff:

> That would mean Subhuti's assumtions are wrong too, and I'm not so

> sure of that.

> But assuming you are right(which I don't), how do you know the dosage

> of the herbs you are giving? And if you can't accurately calculate

> dosage, how do you ethically and otherwise rationalize prescribing

> something not knowing how much is in there?

> Warren

[Guest guest]

but reality is that experienced practitioners

adjust when they put formulas together depending on their preception of

the quality of the herbs used.

>>>That is why i like qualiherbs because they do chemical and other tests to

ascertain active ingredients before they purchase a batch of herbs

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Geoff:

I understand your argument. Fine, as long as you take responsibility

for the fact that you have no idea how much herb is in your pill and

no idea of the quality of herbs used in the pill.

This is not the same as using herb extracts. Not even close.

Warren

 

, " Geoffrey Hudson "

<list@a...> wrote:

> When you get into quality

differences of raw herbs, nobody is going to be 'accurate'. It just is

not possible, sorry. People can think they are being accurate and

thinking there's a difference between a raw formual with 5 or 6 grams

of

bai shao or what ever, but reality is that experienced practitioners

adjust when they put formulas together depending on their preception

of

the quality of the herbs used. It's totally subjective.

[Guest guest]

, " wsheir " <wsheir> wrote:

>

> Geoff:

> I understand your argument. Fine, as long as you take responsibility

> for the fact that you have no idea how much herb is in your pill and

> no idea of the quality of herbs used in the pill.

> This is not the same as using herb extracts. Not even close.

> Warren

>

> , " Geoffrey Hudson "

> <list@a...> wrote:

but reality is that experienced practitioners

> adjust when they put formulas together depending on their preception

> of

> the quality of the herbs used. It's totally subjective.

 

 

I'm with Warren regarding pills. There is no way for even the most skilled

herbalist to assess a pill after it has been made. but even more to the point,

I

do not think the average herbalist has the skill in assessing herb quality that

Geoff describes. I have written before that quantitative assessmentof herbs

using scientific means is the only method we have available today to

determine quality and potency of herbs. This method replaces organoleptic

inspection in that it is far more reliable. While I have personally handled raw

herbs on a daily basis for 20 years, I know many of my collaegues have not. Is

it really fair to say one is better off with the subjective opinion of an

herbalist who may have little skill in raw herb assessment (yet might be a

superb prescriber - like most chinese docs I know, for example). that just

makes no sense to me.

 

In addition, the subjective ability of an herbalist to decide between using 5 or

6 grams of bai shao is, IMO, an assessment that should be in sync with lab

analysis. In other words, the herbalist uses a higher dose when he

subjectively determines the bai shao before him is weaker and thus he needs

more. If this is not the case, then the so-called value of this subjectivity is

nil, IMO. If this is the case, then lab analysis makes sense for raw herbs,

too.

At least to check that one has not become feebleminded over time. :-) If you

are suggesting that herbalism is like cooking witha pinch of this and pinch of

that, I completely disagree. Most of the chinese docs I have worked with are

hawks about dosage, right down to the gram.

 

[Guest guest]

Just like you have to rely on the company you choose to supply your

granules, I have to rely on the pill company to give me the amount of

herb contained in the pill. They do HPLC testing to make sure the

'active ingredients' (what ever that means in Chinese medicine) are in

the correct proportions. I have a good idea, just as you do, if your

granule supplier uses HPLC testing (not all do). Granules are

evaporated decoction plus binders, which vary from herb to herb. You

don't know how much binder and herb is in that granule, but have to rely

on HPLC to assume there is sufficeint 'active ingredient'. My problem

with granules is that I saw patients in some patients that seemed to be

sensitive to the binders used (Lotus brand), but I've heard other

companies use hypoallergenic binders. I think Todd has a good idea, but

to equate HPLC with 'quality' is not necessarily a proven method either.

But - it might be the best that we got. When the HPLC topic came up in

the past, there were several people on both sides of the fence. However

- if you are going to use it to quantitatively assess what the patient

is taking, then you should test after the patient has boiled the

herbs.... Last I checked, there weren't any acupuncturists around with a

High Performance Liquid Chromatographer around the office... But it'd

make one hell of a write-off!

Geoff

 

> I understand your argument. Fine, as long as you take responsibility

> for the fact that you have no idea how much herb is in your pill and

> no idea of the quality of herbs used in the pill.

> This is not the same as using herb extracts. Not even close.

> Warren

 

 

I'm with Warren regarding pills. There is no way for even the most

skilled

herbalist to assess a pill after it has been made. but even more to the

point, I

do not think the average herbalist has the skill in assessing herb

quality that

Geoff describes. I have written before that quantitative assessmentof

herbs

using scientific means is the only method we have available today to