Guest guest Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 Alon wrote: >>>>>You have missed what i was saying. I am talking about LAc shopping for treatments sometimes for as long as 10 years.I am talking about LAc's that have probably seen as many as 10-20 different TCM dr for their own problems and yet still " believe " that CM is the answer for their own illnesses. That is faith inspite of clear evidence or experience. Marian wrote: With what we know about the diversity of ways to practice CM, that LAc may yet find help on the 100th try! --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.434 / Virus Database: 243 - Release Date: 12/25/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 , " Marian Blum " <marianb@r...> wrote: > Do those of you who advocate scientific research into > Chinese medicine and also have some familiarity with quantum > theory, have an understanding of how quantum theory might or > might not inform the study of CM? Put another way: does the > existence of quantum theory have any bearing on what > parameters one would choose to investigate CM? If so, how > and if not, why not? > > Marian You are asking if one theory of a subset of reality may or may not be used to study another theory of another subset of reality. Remember, quantum theory is just theory and continues to change all of the time. New things get added, old things get discarded or change to fit in better with the new things. If CM were to be " analyzed " using quantum theory today, the analization might be quite different from that if it were to occur 10 years from now. That would lead me to question the validity of the analization in the present, as well as that in the future. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 Do those of you who advocate scientific research into Chinese medicine and also have some familiarity with quantum theory, >>>Yes and even aware of experiments were the observes preconceived ideas have been shown to influence the experiment. Such as testing rat behavior and learning. For example there is one experiment were the researchers were told that one group of rats was smart and another was not and they had to test learning. Both groups were actually the same. The study showed the so-called smart rats learned better. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 With what we know about the diversity of ways to practice CM, that LAc may yet find help on the 100th try! >>>>They may or they may not or by that time the condition gets better on its own alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 > >>>>They may or they may not or by that time the condition gets better on its own > alon That reminds me of a situation I participated in as an intern in China way back in 1982. We were treating reasonably large numbers of Bell's palsy patients in the acupuncture department, and our teacher was touting the effectiveness of acupuncture for treating this condition. One day, a French MD happened to be visiting and he saw us treating Bell's palsy patients. He asked how many treatments were typically necessary to get the patients back to normal. We explained that most of our patients were " cured " in 6-7 treatments, i.e., two weeks time. The French MD smiled wryly at us and said, " Mon Dieu, incroyable! Especially when this condition is typically self-limiting and averages about two weeks in duration. " This same thing happened again with a different visiting MD when our teacher was touting the efectiveness of treating herpes zoster with acupuncture, for most patients a self-limiting condition. For acupuncture to be taken seriously, we need outcome studies which somehow either control for or taken placebo into account and also take into account self-limiting effects. If we take placebo effect and self-limiting effect into account, that easily accounts for 40% or more of all clinical success. Since many acupunctures are not taught the natural history of the conditions we treat, we often sometimes claim success in the treatment of conditions that heal on their own. I think we need to be more aware of this phenomenon when we make claims about our abilities to treat this or that. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 I think that diversity is a double-edged sword. After 22-23 years in practice, I can't tell you how often I have heard, currently still do hear that a patient has tried umteen different acupuncture/CM practitioners without success. When I hear that, it makes me wish for more standaridzation and less diversity. It makes going to an acupuncturist a real crap-shoot for patients. While no one of any style of medicine can guarantee a cure, I would like to know that I at least have a 75% chance of getting some amelioration with a particuar modality and/or practitioner. At this point in time, going to an acupuncturist is as much a pig in a poke as going to a chiropractor. Who knows what's going to happen when you walk through the door. It makes it almost impossible to confidently make referrals. I have dozens of cases on file where I made a referral based on simply knowing that there was a practitioner in a certain locale and the patient eventually got back in touch with me with some dissatisfaction or other. When they described what happened, it only made me shake my head in chagrin. While I agree that CM is both an art and a science (as is Western medicine, as is life itself), I do believe minimal basic standards of pattern discrimination, treatment principles, and treatment planning are necessary when one prescribes internal medicine. (Please let's not talk about acupuncture. That fact that anything does seem to work reasonably well with acupuncture is both the saving grace of our profession as well as its Achilles heel. In my opinion, it allows us to get away with all sorts of sloppy thinking and idioscyncratic, unsubstantiated practice. However, we've debated all this before on this list.) Personally, I'd love to see a national standard professional CM society which used contemporary PRC CM as its fundamental standard. Then there could be Japanese meridian acupuncture societies (I think there already are), Leamington Acupuncture/Five Element socities, etc. Then at least members of a particular style of CM could refer to their own fellow members knowing that, amongst those members, there were certain commonly held standards. Right now, I don't think referral lists from the NCCAOM, AAOM, and National Alliance allow for that kind of knowledgable referral. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 Bob, This is a very similar experience to my own clinical time in Nanjing. When I informed my doctors about the natural course of some diseases, they didn't seem to understand or WANT to understand the significance of this. Bell's palsy is the specialty of many acupuncturists in china, without it- they wouldn't have a position at the hospital. This often happened in internal medicine as well. Conditions such as gan mao were CURED in 7 to 10 days, stomach pain and diarrhea often in 24 hours!! It is very arrogant to claim you cured someone in the same period as the natural disease course, but as you so rightly say, perhaps this is based on ignorance of the natural history of many diseases. Prognosis was an area lacking in my chinese medical education. It was covered in my western medicine studies, however, few of my classmates put the two together when in clinic. Perhaps this is a common practice; lack of integrating our education from both paradigms when necessary. This can only lead to wry smiles from the western medical community and wasted research resources if not considered in trial design. Steve On 10/02/2004, at 3:59 AM, Bob Flaws wrote: >>>>>> They may or they may not or by that time the condition gets >>>>>> better on its own >> alon > > That reminds me of a situation I participated in as an intern in China > way back in 1982. We were treating reasonably large numbers of > Bell's palsy patients in the acupuncture department, and our teacher > was touting the effectiveness of acupuncture for treating this > condition. One day, a French MD happened to be visiting and he saw us > treating Bell's palsy patients. He asked how many > treatments were typically necessary to get the patients back to > normal. We explained that most of our patients were " cured " in 6-7 > treatments, i.e., two weeks time. The French MD smiled wryly at us and > said, " Mon Dieu, incroyable! Especially when this condition > is typically self-limiting and averages about two weeks in duration. " > This same thing happened again with a different visiting MD when > our teacher was touting the efectiveness of treating herpes zoster > with acupuncture, for most patients a self-limiting condition. > > For acupuncture to be taken seriously, we need outcome studies which > somehow either control for or taken placebo into account and > also take into account self-limiting effects. If we take placebo > effect and self-limiting effect into account, that easily accounts for > 40% > or more of all clinical success. Since many acupunctures are not > taught the natural history of the conditions we treat, we often > sometimes claim success in the treatment of conditions that heal on > their own. I think we need to be more aware of this phenomenon > when we make claims about our abilities to treat this or that. > > Bob > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 I couldn't agree more. We need standards and criteria for practice, so that patients know what they are getting. This also applies to any eclectic use of supplements, homeopathy, or other techniques such as craniosacral therapy, so that patients know what they are getting. I hope the PRC standards protocol translation effort will get underway soon. On Feb 9, 2004, at 9:23 AM, Bob Flaws wrote: > While I agree that CM is both an art and a science (as is Western > medicine, as is life itself), I do believe minimal basic standards of > pattern discrimination, treatment principles, and treatment planning > are necessary when one prescribes internal medicine. (Please > let's not talk about acupuncture. Personally, I'd love to see a national standard professional CM society which used contemporary PRC CM as its fundamental standard. Then there could be Japanese meridian acupuncture societies (I think there already are), Leamington Acupuncture/Five Element socities, etc. Then at least members of a particular style of CM could refer to their own fellow members knowing that, amongst those members, there were certain commonly held standards. Right now, I don't think referral lists from the NCCAOM, AAOM, and National Alliance allow for that kind of knowledgable referral. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 For acupuncture to be taken seriously, we need outcome studies which somehow either control for or taken placebo into account and also take into account self-limiting effects. If we take placebo effect and self-limiting effect into account, that easily accounts for 40% or more of all clinical success. Since many acupunctures are not taught the natural history of the conditions we treat, we often sometimes claim success in the treatment of conditions that heal on their own. I think we need to be more aware of this phenomenon when we make claims about our abilities to treat this or that. >>>>Bob i totally agree and we need to start understanding the diseases we treat much better. Bob can you also translate Li-dong work on acupuncture. I do not believe we have anything in English and i for one is very interested in what he had to say Thanks Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 Bob by the way where do you live now in not in Co Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 This is a very similar experience to my own clinical time in Nanjing. When I informed my doctors about the natural course of some diseases, they didn't seem to understand or WANT to understand the significance of this. Bell's palsy is the specialty of many acupuncturists in china, without it- they wouldn't have a position at the hospital. This often happened in internal medicine as well. Conditions such as gan mao were CURED in 7 to 10 days, stomach pain and diarrhea often in 24 hours!! It is very arrogant to claim you cured someone in the same period as the natural disease course, but as you so rightly say, perhaps this is based on ignorance of the natural history of many diseases. Prognosis was an area lacking in my chinese medical education. It was covered in my western medicine studies, however, few of my classmates put the two together when in clinic. Perhaps this is a common practice; lack of integrating our education from both paradigms when necessary. This can only lead to wry smiles from the western medical community and wasted research resources if not considered in trial design. >>>>>You have no idea how happy such post make me feel. Pretty soon i will have to start writing on how great and what CM is great for instead of this devils advocate. Thanks Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 > Bob can you also translate Li-dong work on acupuncture. I do not believe we have anything in English and i for one is very interested in what he had to say > Thanks Alon Alon, I believe Chip Chace has already translated this material. If I remember correctly, he said it was very ambiguous and open to lots of interpretation. In any case, you might want to contact him. Blalock would have Chip's email address. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Bob by the way where do you live now in not in Co > Alon Still live in Colorado, just not in Boulder. We now live in Lafayette, a bedroom community of Denver-Boulder. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 thanks bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 This may be true but what about the patients I've seen who have had Bells for months or years? Would they have or not been helped by acupuncture in those first weeks? doug , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001> wrote: > > >>>>They may or they may not or by that time the condition gets better on its own > > alon > > That reminds me of a situation I participated in as an intern in China way back in 1982. We were treating reasonably large numbers of > Bell's palsy patients in the acupuncture department, and our teacher was touting the effectiveness of acupuncture for treating this > condition. One day, a French MD happened to be visiting and he saw us treating Bell's palsy patients. He asked how many > treatments were typically necessary to get the patients back to normal. We explained that most of our patients were " cured " in 6-7 > treatments, i.e., two weeks time. The French MD smiled wryly at us and said, " Mon Dieu, incroyable! Especially when this condition > is typically self-limiting and averages about two weeks in duration. " This same thing happened again with a different visiting MD when > our teacher was touting the efectiveness of treating herpes zoster with acupuncture, for most patients a self-limiting condition. > > For acupuncture to be taken seriously, we need outcome studies which somehow either control for or taken placebo into account and > also take into account self-limiting effects. If we take placebo effect and self- limiting effect into account, that easily accounts for 40% > or more of all clinical success. Since many acupunctures are not taught the natural history of the conditions we treat, we often > sometimes claim success in the treatment of conditions that heal on their own. I think we need to be more aware of this phenomenon > when we make claims about our abilities to treat this or that. > > Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 Good question Doug......a question that would require a well designed clinical trial to answer. Another related condition worthy of such research would be investigating the true stroke recovery benefits of acupuncture. Steve On 10/02/2004, at 8:32 AM, wrote: > This may be true but what about the patients I've seen who have had > Bells for months > or years? Would they have or not been helped by acupuncture in those > first weeks? > doug > > > , " Bob Flaws " > <pemachophel2001> wrote: >>>>>>> They may or they may not or by that time the condition gets >>>>>>> better on its > own >>> alon >> >> That reminds me of a situation I participated in as an intern in >> China way back in > 1982. We were treating reasonably large numbers of >> Bell's palsy patients in the acupuncture department, and our teacher >> was touting > the effectiveness of acupuncture for treating this >> condition. One day, a French MD happened to be visiting and he saw us >> treating > Bell's palsy patients. He asked how many >> treatments were typically necessary to get the patients back to >> normal. We > explained that most of our patients were " cured " in 6-7 >> treatments, i.e., two weeks time. The French MD smiled wryly at us >> and said, " Mon > Dieu, incroyable! Especially when this condition >> is typically self-limiting and averages about two weeks in duration. " >> This same > thing happened again with a different visiting MD when >> our teacher was touting the efectiveness of treating herpes zoster >> with > acupuncture, for most patients a self-limiting condition. >> >> For acupuncture to be taken seriously, we need outcome studies which >> somehow > either control for or taken placebo into account and >> also take into account self-limiting effects. If we take placebo >> effect and self- > limiting effect into account, that easily accounts for 40% >> or more of all clinical success. Since many acupunctures are not >> taught the natural > history of the conditions we treat, we often >> sometimes claim success in the treatment of conditions that heal on >> their own. I > think we need to be more aware of this phenomenon >> when we make claims about our abilities to treat this or that. >> >> Bob > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 I'd be most grateful if someone would point me to a diagram of male reproductive anatomy in TCM. Preferably something in the public domain - old-ish. But anything will do. Thanks Sammy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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