Guest guest Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 , " " wrote: > I am talking about patients whose primary dx is asthma only. sorry I was not > clear. > OK. I'll try another angle. How often do people treat full blown asthma attacks? I think I have only treated or witnessed tx of about 5-10 such cases in 14 years in clinic. So I have given little thought to acute attacks. Most patients will not part with their inhalers during an acute attack anyway. If you have treated many such cases other than your self or your family members, whatis the most common dx you make for acute attacks and how effective and rapid are the responses? Here are some of my unformed thoughts. I was pretty sure an acute attack did not need to involve wind, but I still need some further clarification. It would seem that the phlegm patterns would not be as acute as wind in that phlegm must build up slowly, finally reaching a point where it causes acute respiratory distress. In other words, a person does not go from a phlegm-free state to a phlegm crisis without any precipitation. You go from some phlegm to more phlegm. So you might be experiencing some mild wheezing due to vacuity and phlegm and/or notice changes on your peak flow meter for several days prior to a full blown attack. And history will often show in these cases that phlegm creating activities or overexertion had been going on for a while. On the other hand, wind type asthma patterns can attack without warning in a person who may not have exhibited any wheezing or panting sx for days or weeks or even longer. I think a lot of allergic asthma fits into this category. You take some of these people out of the allergy inducing environment and they can demonstrate great fitness. Which makes one wonder why they are susceptible to attack under any conditions. I think a lot of these allergies are genetically programmed. Yet the patients will not evidence other signs of wei qi instability unless exposed to specific allergens. I am not sure how TCM explains this. This is why Giovanni took his stance on jing vacuity being a factor in all such cases. But essence supplementing herbs do not seem to be indicated in these cases and I am reluctant to use this approach based on etiological theory alone. But the pressing question for me and my students is about a patient who has been asymptomatic for many days with no need for inhalers at all and then gets a sudden emergency attack while sleeping. Would you perceive this as having a wind component or not, by virtue of history and acuity combined, even if there was no fever or chills or other classic exterior sx except floating pulse? The case definitely involves phlegm and vacuity as there is wheezing, toothmarked tongue and greasy white tongue coat. Is there a wind component or could a sudden attack occur because the phlegm has been building up slowly due the patient failing to use her inhaler? I just think in the latter scenario, there would have been mild breathing difficulty building up to the acute attack. That's how it seems to go in a patient of mine, who fits the phlegm and vacuity pattern (and when she lost 10 pounds, her asthma pretty much disappeared). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 , " " wrote: I think people with many types of underlying patterns can have acute episodes of allergic asthma. Hidden phlegm is an idea... But your question I think is, Are ACUTE attacks always an external attack… {I get the impression that when you refer to wind you are saying external attack wind (???)} I would vote no… internal wind must also be considered. Wind Spasm (Allergic attacks) are helped by many of the internal wind herbs. They are very effective at stopping bronchospasm (branch) - . I don't see how releasing the exterior in these cases, especially w/o exterior s/s would be of any benefit. OF course Ma Huang is often employed regardless, but I don't think it ALWAYS releasing the exterior… Don't know if that really answered your question, but it is a start.. -JAson > > OK. I'll try another angle. How often do people treat full blown asthma > attacks? I think I have only treated or witnessed tx of about 5-10 such cases > in 14 years in clinic. So I have given little thought to acute attacks. Most > patients will not part with their inhalers during an acute attack anyway. If > you have treated many such cases other than your self or your family > members, whatis the most common dx you make for acute attacks and how > effective and rapid are the responses? Here are some of my unformed > thoughts. > > I was pretty sure an acute attack did not need to involve wind, but I still need > some further clarification. It would seem that the phlegm patterns would not > be as acute as wind in that phlegm must build up slowly, finally reaching a > point where it causes acute respiratory distress. In other words, a person > does not go from a phlegm-free state to a phlegm crisis without any > precipitation. You go from some phlegm to more phlegm. So you might be > experiencing some mild wheezing due to vacuity and phlegm and/or notice > changes on your peak flow meter for several days prior to a full blown attack. > And history will often show in these cases that phlegm creating activities or > overexertion had been going on for a while. > > On the other hand, wind type asthma patterns can attack without warning in a > person who may not have exhibited any wheezing or panting sx for days or > weeks or even longer. I think a lot of allergic asthma fits into this category. > You take some of these people out of the allergy inducing environment and > they can demonstrate great fitness. Which makes one wonder why they are > susceptible to attack under any conditions. I think a lot of these allergies are > genetically programmed. Yet the patients will not evidence other signs of wei > qi instability unless exposed to specific allergens. I am not sure how TCM > explains this. This is why Giovanni took his stance on jing vacuity being a > factor in all such cases. But essence supplementing herbs do not seem to be > indicated in these cases and I am reluctant to use this approach based on > etiological theory alone. > > But the pressing question for me and my students is about a patient who has > been asymptomatic for many days with no need for inhalers at all and then > gets a sudden emergency attack while sleeping. Would you perceive this as > having a wind component or not, by virtue of history and acuity combined, even > if there was no fever or chills or other classic exterior sx except floating > pulse? The case definitely involves phlegm and vacuity as there is wheezing, > toothmarked tongue and greasy white tongue coat. Is there a wind component > or could a sudden attack occur because the phlegm has been building up slowly > due the patient failing to use her inhaler? I just think in the latter scenario, > there would have been mild breathing difficulty building up to the acute > attack. That's how it seems to go in a patient of mine, who fits the phlegm > and vacuity pattern (and when she lost 10 pounds, her asthma pretty much > disappeared). > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 I'll break the rule a little and mention my last asthma attack 30 or so years ago. Definetely caused by cold dry winter air (wind?) with exertion. doug > > I was pretty sure an acute attack did not need to involve wind, but I still need > some further clarification. It would seem that the phlegm patterns would not > be as acute as wind in that phlegm must build up slowly, finally reaching a > point where it causes acute respiratory distress. In other words, a person > does not go from a phlegm-free state to a phlegm crisis without any > precipitation. You go from some phlegm to more phlegm. So you might be > experiencing some mild wheezing due to vacuity and phlegm and/or notice > changes on your peak flow meter for several days prior to a full blown attack. > And history will often show in these cases that phlegm creating activities or > overexertion had been going on for a while. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 , " " < @h...> wrote: I would vote no… internal wind must also be > considered. Wind Spasm (Allergic attacks) are helped by many of the > internal wind herbs. tell us more about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 tell us more about this. >>>Di Long etc Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 , " " < @h...> wrote: said: Are ACUTE attacks always an external attack? from flaws modern western diseases on page 98, remark 1. " During the acute phase, it is assumed that there are unseen wind evils provoking the attack mixed with deep lying or hidden phlegm. This is especially so in allergic asthma. " I had never read this before this moment, but it seems pretty similar to my post a few days ago. Remark 2 discusses the wind extinguishing medicinals, but does not attribute their need to an internal wind pattern, so I definitely want to hear more about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > tell us more about this. > >>>Di Long etc I know that. I mean the theory behind their use. Flaws says it is because enduring evils lodge in the network vessels, not due to internal wind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 , " " wrote: > , " Alon Marcus " < alonmarcus@w...> > wrote: > > tell us more about this. > > >>>Di Long etc > > > I know that. I mean the theory behind their use. Flaws says it is because > enduring evils lodge in the network vessels, not due to internal wind. > However, if liver depression underlies and transforms fire, isn't that a source of intenal wind. does this refer to stress induced asthma only? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 However, if liver depression underlies and transforms fire, isn't that a source of intenal wind. does this refer to stress induced asthma on >>>>I am not sure there is a premodern use of internal wind herbs for asthma. I think it is actually a pharm action modern use Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 On Feb 12, 2004, at 10:34 AM, wrote: said: Are ACUTE attacks always an external attack? I've got a patient who's acute attacks are stress induced. These can be severe enough to put him into the hospital. No wind to speak of, though you could perhaps say that there is some wind generated from the Liver source on this. -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. -Adlai Stevenson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 , " " wrote: > , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote: > > tell us more about this. > > >>>Di Long etc > > > I know that. I mean the theory behind their use. Flaws says it is because > enduring evils lodge in the network vessels, not due to internal wind. > I guess it just depends on the source. In other sources (Chinese) it clearly says that those herbs extinguish wind and stop spasm (as their function) for stop wheezing. Either way, many formulas that treat acute asthma, nevertheless, do not release the exterior. -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 , " " wrote: > , " " < > @h...> wrote: > said: Are ACUTE attacks always an external attack? > > from flaws modern western diseases on page 98, remark 1. " During the acute > phase, it is assumed that there are unseen wind evils provoking the attack > mixed with deep lying or hidden phlegm. This is especially so in allergic > asthma. " Yes I have read this... I just think it is an overstatement.. I.e. Formulas that treat acute attacks that do not release the exterior contradict this theory, IMO... what do you think...? -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 , " " < @h...> wrote: > Yes I have read this... I just think it is an overstatement.. I.e. > Formulas that treat acute attacks that do not release the exterior > contradict this theory, IMO... what do you think...? > > > -Jason When you are saying " release the exteror, " are you talking about effusion specifically or some other exterior resolving method such as coursing in which there is no sweating? Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 , " " < @h...> wrote: > > I guess it just depends on the source. In other sources (Chinese) it > clearly says that those herbs extinguish wind and stop spasm (as their > function) for stop wheezing. Either way, many formulas that treat > acute asthma, nevertheless, do not release the exterior. what does it say in the pathomechanism sections of these books. You have long argued against just assuming why an herb is in the formula. and then my original question focuses on the nature of the acute attack. an emergency attack that comes in a patient who has no symptoms of poor health versus one who is phlegmy and wheezy most of the time anyway. And just because a spasmolytic herb relieves asthma, does that mean wind was involved. Are there are cause of spasm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 , " " wrote: > > what does it say in the pathomechanism sections of these books. It is just from discussions on asthma and pathomechaisms are implied and written into the herb functions... You have > long argued against just assuming why an herb is in the formula. I still do... but I am quoting what they say… and then > my original question focuses on the nature of the acute attack. > an emergency attack that comes in a patient who has no symptoms of poor > health versus one who is phlegmy and wheezy most of the time anyway. I guess I am missing your question?? what do you want to know.. I thought you were wondering if all acute attacks are exterior related... Please restate if I missed your question… And > just because a spasmolytic herb relieves asthma, does that mean wind was > involved. I agree 100% - I am not sided with anyone on this one... I think it is somewhat backwards theory storeytelling to say there is internal wind.. I am just reporting what is said in the discussions.. Meaning they say extinguish wind as a tx principle... and are using internal wind herbs… I think they are calling spasms (internal at that) wind…a spasm moves... They are using internal wind herbs that successfully treat it… It seems fine to me… it actually makes more sense than these herbs working on " enduring evils lodge[d] in the network vessels " – These herbs (int wind) are quick acting and calm the spasm, sounds like it is calming internal wind… But either way, it seems moot at this point. Also bai shao is said to calm spasm (for asthma)(– more root tx.. ?) . Obviously not as drastically. Many asthma's do have a liver component. > Are there are cause of spasm? > -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 Hi All, & Hi Jason, Jason wrote > I think people with many types of underlying patterns can have > acute episodes of allergic asthma. Hidden phlegm is an idea... But > your question I think is, Are ACUTE attacks always an external > attack… {I get the impression that when you refer to wind you are > saying external attack wind (???)} I would vote no… internal wind > must also be considered. Wind Spasm (Allergic attacks) are helped > by many of the internal wind herbs. They are very effective at > stopping bronchospasm (branch) - . I don't see how releasing the > exterior in these cases, especially w/o exterior s/s would be of > any benefit. OF course Ma Huang is often employed regardless, but > I don't think it ALWAYS releasing the exterior. JAson Jason, I agree that some asthmatic attacks have an internal (sometimes emotional) aspect. The original factor(s) that triggered sensitivity may hav been external ( " Wind Xie " , i.e. wind-bourne pollens, dust-mites, etc), but subsequent attacks may come from internal causes. A few years ago, BBC TV (UK) screened a 5-part series on medical hypnosis. Three very serious conditions that responded unbelievably well to hypnosis fascinated me: (a) the effect of hypnosis on large-scale third-degree burns in a welder after an oxyacetylene explosion (skin totally healed in circa 10 days - quite impossible " by concepts of mod med!); (b) dental extraction (5 teeth) in a confirmed haemophiliac; the extractions were as near bloodless as in a normal (non- haemophiliac) subject; © triggering (and aborting) acute asthmatic attacks in a chronic asthma sufferer. Under hypnosis, the idea was " implanted " that the air was dusty and allergen-laden. Within seconds, the subject went into an acute attack. The hypnotist (a medical anaesthesiologist) then " implanted " the idea that the air was allergen-free and that the lungs/bronchi were relaxing; the attack stopped in seconds. We MUST not overlook the power of the mind/emotions as trigger- factors for serious disease. On another list (the TCM List), a member said recently that he can make himself physically ill simply by visualising the " energy vortex " around certain acupoints moving in the reverse direction to (his idea) of the " normal direction " ! IMO, if the mind or other internal factors are involved as triggers, it follows that Tx to address THOSE aspects could be very powerful symptomatic (branch) therapy, even without addressing any external factors. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 I agree 100% - I am not sided with anyone on this one... I think it is somewhat backwards theory storeytelling to say there is internal wind.. I am just reporting what is said in the discussions.. Meaning they say extinguish wind as a tx principle... and are using internal wind herbs. I think they are calling spasms (internal at that) wind.a spasm moves... They are using internal wind herbs that successfully treat it. It seems fine to me. it actually makes more sense than these herbs working on " enduring evils lodge[d] in the network vessels " - These herbs (int wind) are quick acting and calm the spasm, sounds like it is calming internal wind. But either way, it seems moot at this point. Also bai shao is said to calm spasm (for asthma)(- more root tx.. ?) . Obviously not as drastically. Many asthma's do have a liver component. >>>>>Jason i am must curious, do you know if there is references to the usage of Di long and other such herbs to treat asthma in pre pharmacological studies ara? Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 Or just the zang fu pattern of Liv Qi invading the Lung. Geoff > __________ > > Message: 20 > Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:54:56 -0800 > Al Stone <alstone > Re: Re: acute asthma treatment > > > On Feb 12, 2004, at 10:34 AM, wrote: > > said: Are ACUTE attacks always an external attack? > > I've got a patient who's acute attacks are stress induced. > These can be > severe enough to put him into the hospital. > > No wind to speak of, though you could perhaps say that there is some > wind generated from the Liver source on this. > > -- > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > -Adlai Stevenson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > >>>>>Jason i am must curious, do you know if there is references to the usage of Di long and other such herbs to treat asthma in pre pharmacological studies ara? > Alon > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Todd & group, i see acute asthma attacks at least twice a week but they usually involve children b/w the ages of 6 months-4 years old. i have been seeing this pattern up here in Portland for the last 6 months or so. i usually treat them with pediatric tuina, depending on pulses, tongue and presentation and the amount of medication they are on, i treat them with different herbal combinations. some of those combinations include: bai shao and gui zhi; chai hu and fu ling; pu gong ying and dan shen sometimes either as an internal or an external application. and yes, i know, we call it " asthma " but who knows in what is truely going on with the pulmonary disharmony; switching gears: another thing,to add in the post nasal drip thing: i know we all know this thing called postnasal drip-but you have to remember this is a diagnosis literally invented by a drug company to market new meds! this practice happens all the time-currently it seems to be aimed at the " new " diagnoses they are trying to come out with for particular GI and hormonal imbalances. so if we look in the CM literature in English or Chinese, (which thank gawd i am finally getting the hang of (thanks Wenlin!) we should be looking for other terms, syndromes, etc. as well; be that as it may, we as physicians, health care practitioners (whatever title that is bestowed upon us by our local BME) should be doing what we are really do best: that my friends is the art and practice of healing; healing ourselves and helping other folks on their healing path. well that's my two kwai. gonzo flores , " " <@h...> wrote: > , " Alon Marcus " > <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > > > > >>>>>Jason i am must curious, do you know if there is references to > the usage of Di long and other such herbs to treat asthma in pre > pharmacological studies ara? > > Alon > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 > an emergency attack that comes in a patient who has no symptoms of poor > health versus one who is phlegmy and wheezy most of the time anyway. And > just because a spasmolytic herb relieves asthma, does that mean wind was > involved. Are there are cause of spasm? > " Flaws says... " Unless I specifically say that, " in my experience, ..., " or " in my/our opinion, ..., " anything I say in the Western med book about Chinese medicine comes directly from the Chinese language CM literature. The bibliography is not a snow-job. We actually did consult all the books and articles listed. Materials in the book were not taken from obscure, idiosyncratic sources. In my experience, the contemporary Chinese literature is pretty homogeneous in its assertion that acute attacks of wind always are provked by external contraction of wind evils. In this case, wind evils only mean and unseen, typically airborne, pathogen. In this case, wind is an abstract concept like malaria (bad air) used to be in the West. It is also a widely held statement of fact among contemproary Chinese doctors that, " if there is asthma, there is phlegm, " even if that phlegm is ordinarily hidden or deep-lying. Nigel's term is deep-lying, but, in this case, hidden may be more accurate, since the word hidden means not observable. As for the use of wand-extingusihing spasmolytic meds, such as Di Long, I wouldn't get too worked up about all this. Chinese statements that these meds are used because they enter the network vessels and track down wind are mostly just pro forma CM explanations of their empirical spasmolytic effects. Many, if not most, contemporary Chinese praxctitioners feel they need to square their circle with WM. From what I've read of it, this whole discussion reminds me of the blind men and the elephant. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 , " " < @h...> wrote: > > an emergency attack that comes in a patient who has no symptoms of poor= > > health versus one who is phlegmy and wheezy most of the time anyway. > > I guess I am missing your question?? what do you want to know.. I > thought you were wondering if all acute attacks are exterior > related... Please restate if I missed your question… I am trying to distinguish between degrees of sudden onset and acuity as a = basis for identifying exterior wind as the primary pathogen in certain acut= e asthma attacks. While the cold virus is the most common cause of sudden onset wheezing, another one is allergy. The latter has certain characteris= tics of wind, but lacks fever and chills. Because of this, I am having trouble = conveying to students why this is exterior wind (if indeed it is, perhaps t= hat is the problem). Patient, 21, asthma for ten years. uses steroid inhaler daily and bronchodilator several times daily, more as needed. She runs out of meds = 5 days ago and last night in bed, she developed a crisis with tachypnea, cyanosis. etc. and went to the emergency room. There was no known precipitating factor in the form of food or infection or emotional stress. = The patient did not produce sputum, however she was wheezing (phlegm by definition) and also had " fake " scalloped tongue with greasy white coat. P= ulse was tight, but not floating according to " fake " TCM findings that were appended to a case from a medical textbook. It is common to modify western medical cases for practical applications in = our integrative medicine classes at PCOM.. The expectation is that student= s will work with the findings as given. In the first class of this series, t= he absence of a floating pulse and fever or chills is code for the absnece of = an exterior condition. Yet if this is not an exterior condition, what precipi= tated an attack in a patient who had been doing so well that she had not even nee= ded her meds in the past five days? Was it the accumulation of phlegm due to l= ack of inhaler use (do these meds decrease phlegm? is that their TCM mechanism?). Or was it a wind invasion? Phlegm builds up slowly. Wind comes on suddenly. While I definitely think= this patient has deep-lying phlegm as evidenced by her hx and tongue/pulse.= It seems that there must be a precipitating factor to stir the phlegm in such = a case. My assumption is that if the attack is due solely to an accumulation= of phlegm that reaches the crisis point that there would be phlegm symptoms developing for a period of time prior to the attack. And if the patient ha= d no need for her inhalers for many days, my assumption is that she had been sx-= free for that time. Does that type of acuity that comes seemingly out of nowhere fit the bill for wind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Bob, , " Bob Flaws " < pemachophel2001> wrote: >anything I say in the Western med > book about Chinese medicine comes directly from the Chinese language CM literature. I assume that is a given for this audience and that is why I quote your books as authoritative sources on the modern consensus on these issues. > > In my experience, the contemporary Chinese literature is pretty homogeneous in its assertion that acute attacks of wind always are > provoked by external contraction of wind evils. you meant acute attacksof asthma here, I assume. > From what I've read of it, this whole discussion reminds me of the blind men and the elephant. I am not sure why you need to characterize the discussion this way. It began with the request of a student for help understanding a complex issue that does not appear to be clearly elaborated in the english language literature. Different authors and/or translators, all of whom have equal authority in the eyes of students give differing accounts. However when I refer to the english sources I personally give authority to, I find the views narrow. I have been pretty convinced by reference to such sources, discussion with several of my chinese colleagues and what seems to make the most sense to me that what you say above is the consensus. However because my own access to the chinese medical literature in chinese is limited and because some of the sources that conflict with my interpretation are written by those who do read chinese, I found myself in a quandary trying to make my case against other interpretations that were given more weight by students for a variety of reasons. Raising this issue here as a question was meant to be a polite way of eliciting input on this matter from others who may have access to chinese sources, who have studied in china, who have observed what their chinese teachers think on this matter. Sure, some of the responses have merely pointed out textbook patterns present in the english language literature, with which we are all familiar. and thus have missed the point of my question. Which is discover information other than what is commonly accessible to me. So when you characterize such an attempt to gain clarity for my students and to check my own thought process as the blind men and the elephant, what have you accomplished? While it won't stifle me, I know there are others who are fearful to make their own requests for help lest they suffer recriminations for that request. You have oft-stated that you believe the ability to read chinese is essential for practice, the implication always being that if those of us having this discussion were able to read chinese, there would be no debate. Yet I had the pleasure of a chinese student translating to me from the zhong yi da ci dian during the class the other day in a challenge to my explanation of exterior wind as the ubiquitous unseen force in asthma, just as you described in modern western diseases. Reading chinese does not necessarily bring clarity. You still need to comprehend the subject in order to make sense of the words. Thus, I brought this matter to the list. The vast majority of CM px in the USA do not read chinese nor do they know how to carefully discriminate the quality of translated source materials. If attempts to understand more are responded to in a way that insults people, than these people will retreat to their private misconceptions in order to save face and protect their psyches. If we abandon the bulk of CM px as blind men with no hope of ever seeing the light, then we have abandoned CM in the west altogether. Because the majority of px will end up practicing something other than CM and what the world sees as our practice will be something wholly other than what you have advocated for so long. We need to pull people into the fold by showing them the evidence, not by chastising them for being unable to find the evidence themselves. Perhaps people are unnecessarily sensitive to such a style of argument, but that is the nature of our field -- lots of sensitive folks here. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 " if there is asthma, there is phlegm, " >>>>This however does not jive with clinical reality. you can see patients with asthma that do not show any symptom or sign of phlegm. So unless if asthma is the sign of phlegm it does not jive Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Sorry my reply pushed some buttons, but it is tiring, irksome, and frustrating when such simple issues raise all sorts of uncessary wheel-spinning. This is exactly why I and others harp on the utility, nay necessity, of learning to read and study this stuff in its original language. This kind of question is basically a non-issue in Chinese. In any case, let's not debate the merits or demerits of studying Chinese medicine in Chinese. No one's going to be swayed euther way on this list who has not already been. BTW, is anyone else having trouble with this site suddenly locking up their web browser? This began for me about two weeks or so ago. Maybe it's an omen to simply stop getting involved with this site. However, it is an easy fix when I'm bored with whatever else I'm doing (or not doing as the case may be). Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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