What is Fat?

February 21, 2004

I am wondering how to " frame " fat in CM. What are the etiologies of

fatness from a purely premodern CM point of view - no MSU. What type

of physiological / pathological substance is fat classified as from

the same point of view? Is fat considered pathological at some point?

Was it even something that was thought to need treatment? Please, no

MSU. Also, I would prefer information from a premodern (before TCM)

point of view, but I also welcome a moderm TCM point of view if it is

clearly designated as such. If possible, please source your

information as well.

At PCOM, fat is referred to as damp, but something about this does not

seem quite right. I have seen fat patients that show no signs or

symptoms of dampness (unless fat is the sign). Also, it does not seem

like a drain damp treatment protocol is going to make fat disappear.

So, I never assume that fat = damp. I can see how puffiness (edema)

would be considered damp, but not fat.

Brian C. Allen

February 22, 2004

I just wanted to throw some things i heard out there, i realize it's

not very scholarly to repeat word on the street, but i'm interested

in everyone's collected input on this subject and i'm very pleased

the topic has been raised. if you're talking about obesity, i've

heard it called phlegm, and phlegm could attract the clear body

fluids in an attempt to dissolve it (like osmotic force)and thus

create dry signs elsewhere in the body, so although it isn't

dampness and producing damp signs, it stemmed in part from

dampness. in maciocia's gynecology book he talked about polycystic

ovary syndrome, and the etiology was kidney yang deficiency failing

to transform the fluids which accumulated into turbid phlegm, or

something alongthose lines. since obesity is commonly associated

with polycystic ovary disease that theory could hold with

other 'endocrine' causes of fat accumulation... of course, at some

point this post has included everything you didn't want when you

framed your question, but perhaps it will get the ideas and

conversation moving.

Brett

, " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...>

wrote:

> I am wondering how to " frame " fat in CM. What are the etiologies

of

> fatness from a purely premodern CM point of view - no MSU. What

type

> of physiological / pathological substance is fat classified as from

> the same point of view? Is fat considered pathological at some

point?

> Was it even something that was thought to need treatment?

Please, no

> MSU. Also, I would prefer information from a premodern (before

TCM)

> point of view, but I also welcome a moderm TCM point of view if it

is

> clearly designated as such. If possible, please source your

> information as well.

>

> At PCOM, fat is referred to as damp, but something about this does

not

> seem quite right. I have seen fat patients that show no signs or

> symptoms of dampness (unless fat is the sign). Also, it does not

seem

> like a drain damp treatment protocol is going to make fat

disappear.

> So, I never assume that fat = damp. I can see how puffiness

(edema)

> would be considered damp, but not fat.

>

> Brian C. Allen

February 25, 2004

, " scooteronian " <

scooteronian@h...> wrote:

> I just wanted to throw some things i heard out there, i realize it's

> not very scholarly to repeat word on the street, but i'm interested

> in everyone's collected input on this subject and i'm very pleased

> the topic has been raised. if you're talking about obesity, i've

> heard it called phlegm,

Bob Flaws wrote an article based on chinese sources. it is at

http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2002/oct/10flaws.html

a good question for me is how can fat be both a normal body constituent and

and excess pathogenic factor. Is only excess fat considered phlegm-

turbidity? Because phlegm is always bad and always needs to be cleared. If

all fat is phlegm, than all fat is bad. But we need some fat. so is there

normal fat and pathological fat. If pathological fat is phlegm, what is normal

fat called. It can't be phlegm. Is this like mucus, which normally lines the

lungs versus phlegm, an abnormality in the mucus. excess fat causes tissue

resistance and syndrome X and DM type 2, while normal fat is healthy. So

something is different in the nature of obesity versus normal fatty tissue. As

to why the tongue and pulse often do not conform, good question. Perhaps the

tongue and pulse may show liver depression and stomach heat, two major

factors in overeating, both of which contribute to phlegm turbidity.

February 25, 2004

In a message dated 2/25/04 8:07:39 PM, writes:

<< so is there

normal fat and pathological fat. >>

I think it is when fat doesn't move (stagnates) that it is pathological

(phlegm). When fat moves it is a source of energy and power.

-roseanne s.