Guest guest Posted February 23, 2004 Report Share Posted February 23, 2004 has anyone heard that moxa can generate infrared radiation. please direct me to more information on this. Chinese Herbs FAX: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2004 Report Share Posted February 23, 2004 , wrote: > has anyone heard that moxa can generate infrared radiation. please > direct me to more information on this. > > > Chinese Herbs > > > FAX: > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2004 Report Share Posted February 23, 2004 , wrote: > has anyone heard that moxa can generate infrared radiation. please > direct me to more information on this. I do not have specifics on this, but it is a fairly common thing. Even the human body gives off infrared radiation. On TV shows, spies use infrared goggles to see in that spectrum - though it is based in reality. The warmer something is, the more infrared radiation it gives off. Moxa, when burning, is giving off infrared radiation. Radiation, in this case, will be felt as heat and is not dangerous to us because of the wavelength and frequency sizes compared to something like microwave or x-ray radiation. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2004 Report Share Posted February 23, 2004 TTBOMK, it is the infrared frequencies that penetrate. The higher the frequency the less penetration there is. Chris In a message dated 2/23/2004 6:27:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, acupuncture4health writes: - I am not certain of the infrared aspect, but I had heard that there is a unique nature to the heat stimulus. " The heat from the burning moxa, rather than dispersing over the surface of the skin, penetrates deeply to the underlying tissues. " (Junji Mitzutani, R.Ac)- North American Journal of Oriental Medicine, Practical Moxibustion Therapy (1). I am not a physicist, but that sounds similar to changing wavelength - whether it is to the IR, I do not know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2004 Report Share Posted February 23, 2004 infrared radiation >>>>Todd that means heat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2004 Report Share Posted February 23, 2004 Moxa is a funny thing. I have had students wave moxa around on me and felt next to nothing. I had the opportunity to have a master wave some moxa around and it went right through me. The same thing with needles. Some people don't move much energy. Others, consistently get nice big fat rings around the needles. Life is a miraculous event. Some people seem to interact with it at a deeper level. Chris In a message dated 2/23/2004 11:10:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, alonmarcus writes: possibly but i do not believe that you get much tissue penetration with moxa alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2004 Report Share Posted February 23, 2004 Weeeellllll,,,,,,,,nope, your right, but wrong. You see, you are talking about a whole different set of waves. You are correct that electromagnetic waves penetrate deeper at higher frequencies, but the infra red that we are talking about are not electromagnetic in nature,,, therefore, what you stated does not apply to the topic at hand. I can, with a great deal of confidence say that in the visible light band of energy, in which infrared is just below, that the lower the frequency, the deeper the penetration. Chris In a message dated 2/24/2004 12:20:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, bcaom writes: , Musiclear@a... wrote: > TTBOMK, it is the infrared frequencies that penetrate. The higher the > frequency the less penetration there is. > > Chris That would be the other way around. When electromagnetic radiation has higher frequencies, it penetrates things easier. That is why x-rays pass though a human body (higher frequency), but visible light does not pass through a human body, though it does penetrate. Infrared is even lower frequency than visible light, so it penetrates even less. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2004 Report Share Posted February 23, 2004 , " alon marcus " < alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > infrared radiation > >>>>Todd that means heat no, I am referring to a specific wavelength similar to TDP lamps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2004 Report Share Posted February 23, 2004 Todd possibly but i do not believe that you get much tissue penetration with moxa alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2004 Report Share Posted February 23, 2004 , Musiclear@a... wrote: > TTBOMK, it is the infrared frequencies that penetrate. The higher the > frequency the less penetration there is. > > Chris That would be the other way around. When electromagnetic radiation has higher frequencies, it penetrates things easier. That is why x-rays pass though a human body (higher frequency), but visible light does not pass through a human body, though it does penetrate. Infrared is even lower frequency than visible light, so it penetrates even less. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2004 Report Share Posted February 23, 2004 , Musiclear@a... wrote: > Weeeellllll,,,,,,,,nope, your right, but wrong. You see, you are talking > about a whole different set of waves. You are correct that electromagnetic > waves penetrate deeper at higher frequencies, but the infra red that we are > talking about are not electromagnetic in nature,,, therefore, what you stated > does not apply to the topic at hand. > I can, with a great deal of confidence say that in the visible light band > of energy, in which infrared is just below, that the lower the frequency, the > deeper the penetration. > > Chris If ifrared light is not electromagnetic radiation, then what is it? You cannot answer correctly because it is electromagnetic radition. Visible light is electromagnetic radiation, and as you say, infradred is at a frequency just below that. This is 6th grade science, and it gets repeated several times in high school, and then again in college. The only physical difference between radio waves, microwaves, visible light, infrared, x-rays, gamma rays, etc. is just the frequency and wavelengths (amplitude measures the strength of the waves). As the frequency increases, the wavelength descreases. All the waves are composed of photons. With a higher frequency and smaller wavelength, the photons can get between the " spaces " of molecules easier, such as those that make up skin, bones, etc. Smaller frequency waves such as radio waves just bend around (refraction) objects such as people and do not penetrate at all. If the frequency is high enough, it will pass completely though a person. If infrared light is penetrating deeper into a person than visible light, then it must because someone is using a much higher amplitutde (stronger) wave than whatever amplitude of visible light is being used. This, however, does not change the basics of what is said above. Given equal amplitudes, infrared waves will NOT penetrate deeper into a person than waves from the visible light sprectrum. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2004 Report Share Posted February 24, 2004 As it turns out,,,, ahhhhhh, you are right. In my haste, I lumped light waves in with the sound waves, but you are correct in saying light, along with infra red are electromagnetic. Sorry bout that. Chris In a message dated 2/24/2004 4:33:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, bcaom writes: In , Musiclear@a... wrote: > Weeeellllll,,,,,,,,nope, your right, but wrong. You see, you are talking > about a whole different set of waves. You are correct that electromagnetic > waves penetrate deeper at higher frequencies, but the infra red that we are > talking about are not electromagnetic in nature,,, therefore, what you stated > does not apply to the topic at hand. > I can, with a great deal of confidence say that in the visible light band > of energy, in which infrared is just below, that the lower the frequency, the > deeper the penetration. > > Chris If ifrared light is not electromagnetic radiation, then what is it? You cannot answer correctly because it is electromagnetic radition. Visible light is electromagnetic radiation, and as you say, infradred is at a frequency just below that. This is 6th grade science, and it gets repeated several times in high school, and then again in college. The only physical difference between radio waves, microwaves, visible light, infrared, x-rays, gamma rays, etc. is just the frequency and wavelengths (amplitude measures the strength of the waves). As the frequency increases, the wavelength descreases. All the waves are composed of photons. With a higher frequency and smaller wavelength, the photons can get between the " spaces " of molecules easier, such as those that make up skin, bones, etc. Smaller frequency waves such as radio waves just bend around (refraction) objects such as people and do not penetrate at all. If the frequency is high enough, it will pass completely though a person. If infrared light is penetrating deeper into a person than visible light, then it must because someone is using a much higher amplitutde (stronger) wave than whatever amplitude of visible light is being used. This, however, does not change the basics of what is said above. Given equal amplitudes, infrared waves will NOT penetrate deeper into a person than waves from the visible light sprectrum. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2004 Report Share Posted February 24, 2004 Life is a miraculous event. Some people seem to interact with it at a deeper level. >>>>>Have you seen any thermography done on patients getting moxa? I have Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2004 Report Share Posted February 24, 2004 electromagnetic in nature,,, >>>> What is infrared then? Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2004 Report Share Posted February 24, 2004 If infrared light is penetrating deeper into a person than visible light, then it must because someone is using a much higher amplitutde (stronger) wave than whatever amplitude of visible light is being used. >>>>>It does not penetrate deeper than visible light. That is some of the nonsense proponents of laser are saying. But it penetrates at the same rate and depth as regular light and losses much energy for every mm of penetration Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2004 Report Share Posted February 24, 2004 wrote : >> has anyone heard that moxa can generate infrared radiation. please direct me >> to more information on this. >> > I am not a physicist, but that sounds similar to changing wavelength - whether > it is to the IR, I do not know. > Infrared = heat. It's basic physics. Here is some basic physics info. The basic principle explains how moxa works - or any heat source - but moxa burns at a very high temp in a concentrated source. TDP lamps work by directing the IR through a mineral ceramic disk to concentrate in in a small area (this versus a generalized source such as a red heat lamp bulb). (from http://www.fact-index.com/i/in/infrared.html ) Infrared (IR) radiation is electromagnetic radiation of a wavelength longer than visible light, but shorter than microwave radiation. The name means " below red " (from the Latin infra, " below " ), red being the color of visible light of longest wavelength. Infrared radiation has wavelengths between 700 nm and 1 mm. ... Infrared radiation is often linked to heat, since objects at room temperature or above will emit radiation mostly concentrated in the mid-infrared band... (from: http://www.fact-index.com/h/he/heat.html ) In physics, the relationship between heat and energy is similar to that between work and energy. Heat is said to flow from areas of high temperature to areas of low temperature. All objects have a certain amount of energy within them that is related to the random motion of their atoms. This internal energy is directly proportional to the temperature of the object. When two bodies of different temperature come in to thermal contact, they will exchange internal energy until the temperature is equalized. The amount of energy transferred is the amount of heat exchanged. It is a common misconception to confuse heat with internal energy, but there is a difference, and understanding the difference is a necessary part of understanding the first law of thermodynamics. Judy Saxe, L.Ac. Qing Ting Acupuncture LLC Denver, Colorado (303) 964-1996 http://www.QingTingAcupuncture.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2004 Report Share Posted February 24, 2004 OK,, so you've seen thermography. What did it show you? Chris In a message dated 2/24/2004 1:35:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, alonmarcus writes: Life is a miraculous event. Some people seem to interact with it at a deeper level. >>>>>Have you seen any thermography done on patients getting moxa? I have Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2004 Report Share Posted February 24, 2004 I took a class with Junji Mitzutani who was teaching direct moxabustion. He told us there was research in Japan that showed the heating (with the new cone) on the burnt cone (carbon) generated infrared radiation. He did not give us specific sources (in Japanese), but you might want to contact some of those people selling the $100 / few gram moxa and I think they might have some articles to backup their prices. Geoff ______________________ Message: 1 Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:47:52 -0800 < moxa and infrared has anyone heard that moxa can generate infrared radiation. please direct me to more information on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2004 Report Share Posted February 24, 2004 OK,, so you've seen thermography. What did it show you? >>>>There was not special penetration beyond normal heat alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 generated infrared radiation >>>All radiant heat is infrared. All I can tell you is that I saw a cigarette and moxa heat compared with thermagraphy, no diff alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 Do you believe that if objective markers indicate that someone's pain > should be cured, then they are cured, even if they still feel immense > pain > >>>>> That is why i would like to see other type of research and not just > pain. The study of pain is very complex, if we are to study painful > disorders than i would like to see functional capacity studied as it is more > objective. For example, if we can show a higher return to work in work comp > population that is an objective parameter and very significant finding. In > the new world of evidence based med " having a patient say he feels less pain > and not showing a real significant difference between a " placebo/sham " and > active treatment will not fly. WM is loosing procedures every day because > many older treatments are now showing no benefit. With the cost of medical > care if we do not play by the rules we will loose. Now in the US we will > probably still be able to practice as a non covered by any insurance > " profession " however, I think Todd is right that the majority of our > patients will stop coming. Not only because they will not have coverage, but > because studies such as the German study will brake the confidence the > public has with acupuncture. > While we need to study herbology acupuncture is what makes our profession. > Herbology is not going to become a real regulated profession (i think), as > the laws in the US will not make herbs more than a food supplement. If they > do than we will loose 99% of our pharmacompia. We will only be able to use a > few western well studied herbs.I do not know who has connections with the > needle companies for example as they are the ones with the money and should > fund our studies. These studies must be done well and designed by well > trained acupuncturists, but must follow good standard study design > Alon > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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