China study

March 3, 2004

Having studied in China three times myself and having arranged (along with my

wife) study trips to China for six or seven other groups,

one of the things I would like to share on this topic is the issue of guan xi.

Guan xi means relationship. It's the grease and the glue of

Chinese culture. While there are arguably better and worse colleges and

hospitals, without guan xi, even the best college or hospital

in China may turn out to be a ma-ma hu-hu (so-so experience).

Guan xi is made in either of two ways. Either 1) someone who already has guan xi

makes an introduction for you and " sponsors " you.

This means that the sponsoring party has staked their guan xi on you, acting as

your " surity. " Secondly, one can make guan xi on

their own via their own effort. While we norte americanos tend to form

friendships quickly and also break them quickly, Chinese take

time to develop friendships and then maintain them steadfastly over a long

period of time. This means that, often, the first study visit is

about cultivating guan xi. Frankly, one has to demonstrate to Chinese that you

are worth teaching. You have to " qualify. " Once you

qualify, then they stick by you over time through thick and thin. At least

that's my experience. Because I made good guan xi during

my first study trip to China, the second time I went they rolled out the red

carpet and brought in the big guns for me in terms of

famous teachers, etc. The otrher students I brought with me on this second trip

then enjoyed (most of) the same benefits. When my

wife went to China, she didn't need to make her own guan xi. Because of my guan

xi, she was immediately taken into the inner circle.

Depending on differences in guan xi, two people studying at the same school or

clinic, even with the same teachers or clinical

preceptors, may come away with very different educational experiences and access

to resources.

Techniques for developing guan xi are a whole other topic. Like anything, there

are methods. Unfortunately, my calendar is full for

today. If I get done what I need to early, perhaps I can return to this topic

later this afternoon.

Bob

March 3, 2004

I have studied in China several times and would recommend for a first

visit that going to a university/hospital with experience of foreign

students is essential. Unless you have Chinese language skills it is

too hard in places inexperienced with foreign students and they start

as if you know nothing.

In Hangzhou I would recommend the Red Cross Hospital - there was a

time that all graduates from Sydney College of TCM went to the Red

Cross and they had terrific teachers and interpreters and Hangzhou is

a beautiful setting to get to know China through. But times change

and I am not sure who is there now - but they were once great!

Sue

March 3, 2004

I think the best way for you is to find a practical training in a TCM

hospital affiliated with a TCM school. The TCM doctors not only work

in the hospital but also teach students in the school. With the

skills combined you may get out more and fast from them.

But in this case, you won't be able to get any official certificate.

I know one doctor/professor in Guangzhou city. BTW, how long do you

plan to stay over there?

/Linda

, Brian Hardy

<mischievous00> wrote:

> Bob:

>

> Thank you for your advice and would appreciate any other advice

that you have. I graduated from Samra University in 2000. In clinic

we never really had the opportunity to treat patients other than for

pain, digestion, etc.

>

> I am hoping that by going to China this will give me the experience

to help me be more competent in treating other disorders.

>

> I have heard bad stories from students who went to China and were

dissapointed in not learning much more that was learned here in the

states in schools. This makes me a little nervous before going over.

>

> I have heard several opinions to where is the best plact to study

and its overwhelming. The school in Oregon last year mentioned they

would help set things up in Nanjing, which is the school they have

developed relationships with.

>

> I then spoke with a chinese instructor who received both western MD

degree and Chinese TCM degree. He mentioned that the best schools and

instructors are in Beijing.

>

> I have recently relocated my practice to Southern Utah and will not

start practice for another few months so this would give me the

opportunity to study in China for a few months. I am looking to go

over in May-July.

>

> Initially, I seen the message in this group for the abdominal

acupuncture course in Hangzhou. I thought this would be a great

chance to learn something new and then my past chinese instructor I

mentioned above said this technique is old and not really new. So now

I am really confused. The university that is sponsoring it looks

great and several different departments of study in the hospital.

>

> From reading your message it now is very apparent that I rething

the whole thing. Do you and your wife still arrange the study trips

to China.

>

> One last question I have heard from returning students is that most

the conditions treated in China are not conditions that are usually

seen in the states.

>

> Any advice you have would be greatly appreciated.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Brian N Hardy, DC, LAC, CCN

>

> Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001> wrote:

> Having studied in China three times myself and having arranged

(along with my wife) study trips to China for six or seven other

groups,

> one of the things I would like to share on this topic is the issue

of guan xi. Guan xi means relationship. It's the grease and the glue

of

> Chinese culture. While there are arguably better and worse colleges

and hospitals, without guan xi, even the best college or hospital

> in China may turn out to be a ma-ma hu-hu (so-so experience).

>

> Guan xi is made in either of two ways. Either 1) someone who

already has guan xi makes an introduction for you and " sponsors " you.

> This means that the sponsoring party has staked their guan xi on

you, acting as your " surity. " Secondly, one can make guan xi on

> their own via their own effort. While we norte americanos tend to

form friendships quickly and also break them quickly, Chinese take

> time to develop friendships and then maintain them steadfastly over

a long period of time. This means that, often, the first study visit

is

> about cultivating guan xi. Frankly, one has to demonstrate to

Chinese that you are worth teaching. You have to " qualify. " Once you

> qualify, then they stick by you over time through thick and thin.

At least that's my experience. Because I made good guan xi during

> my first study trip to China, the second time I went they rolled

out the red carpet and brought in the big guns for me in terms of

> famous teachers, etc. The otrher students I brought with me on this

second trip then enjoyed (most of) the same benefits. When my

> wife went to China, she didn't need to make her own guan xi.

Because of my guan xi, she was immediately taken into the inner

circle.

> Depending on differences in guan xi, two people studying at the

same school or clinic, even with the same teachers or clinical

> preceptors, may come away with very different educational

experiences and access to resources.

>

> Techniques for developing guan xi are a whole other topic. Like

anything, there are methods. Unfortunately, my calendar is full for

> today. If I get done what I need to early, perhaps I can return to

this topic later this afternoon.

>

> Bob

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services,

including board approved continuing education classes, an annual

conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

March 8, 2004

Thanks again for your help. In your opinion with this being my first time in

China where would you reccommend to go. I have corresponded via email with

Zhejiang International Exchange Center of Clinical TCM at Zhejiang Provincial

Hospital of Traditional http://www.chinatcm.org/ and leaning

towards them as where to go but would appreciate your input.

Thanks again....Brian

Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote:

Brain,

Stay out of Nanjing in May-July. It is known as one of the " three furnances " of

China, and this is exactly the hot season. I've heard

good things about Hangzhou, and it's a nice little city with some really

beautiful surrounding areas. As the Chinese say, " Heaven

above, Suzhou and Hangzhou below. "

Generally, Chinese tout where they themselves are from. However, of the four

main TCM colleges, Beijing is known as the most

politically correct, Nanjing as the most scholarly, Shanghai as the best

teaching, and Guangzhou as the best clinic. These are

probably just another Chinese cliche, but cliches are usually based on some

truth.

For sure, the more Chinese you know, the better will be your experience. Knowing

at least some Chinese is one of the best ways to

create guan xi with Chinese teachers. In my experience, alot of the disaster

stories we both ha ve heard have more to do with the

deficiencies of the Western students than the deficiencies of the Chinese. Like

anywhere else, you've got to know how to work the

system. The more you know, the more you will be able to learn. I've heard

glowing accounts from one student and a disaster story

from another student on the same tour with the same teachers and training at the

same hospitals.

Sorry, we no longer arrange or lead study trips to China. Too many hassles for

the ROI.

Bob

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

March 8, 2004

Sue,

Thanks for your message. I am leaning towards hangzhou at this point. Here's the

link, perhaps you could ckeck it out and give me your opinion.

http://www.chinatcm.org/

Do you have the information for the Red Cross Hospital and how was your

experience there. If you have any other suggestions I'm open to anything.

I have my masters degree in TCM for US so I'm not just a beginner. I understand

that helps depending where you go.

Thanks again....Brian

suecochrane36 <suecochrane wrote:

I have studied in China several times and would recommend for a first

visit that going to a university/hospital with experience of foreign

students is essential. Unless you have Chinese language skills it is

too hard in places inexperienced with foreign students and they start

as if you know nothing.

In Hangzhou I would recommend the Red Cross Hospital - there was a

time that all graduates from Sydney College of TCM went to the Red

Cross and they had terrific teachers and interpreters and Hangzhou is

a beautiful setting to get to know China through. But times change

and I am not sure who is there now - but they were once great!

Sue

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

March 8, 2004

Linda,

Thanks for your reply. Have you heard of the University in hangshou. Here is the

link, perhaps you can look at it and give me your opinion.

I plan on spending 2 months so far, maybe a little longer.

Do you have the contact information for Guangzhou...

Thanks again...Brian

lindaleng wrote: