Guest guest Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 In a message dated 3/8/2004 9:58:50 AM Central Standard Time, zrosenbe writes: > Sounds more like 'bada bing'. > > Maybe I am missing the point of your post, but I can't see why one > should replace or augment an effective, low tech therapy like > acupuncture and herbal medicine with one that costs six times as much. > This would seem to be the opposite of 'the doctor as medicine' concept. > > > Frankly, Z'ev, it was more like Cha' Ching... My practice became much more profitable, and the patients were far more satisfied with their treatment. I am not advocating this approach necessarily, however, I was responding to the question about what to do at a health fair and the question about chiropractors and machines that draw interest. The situation I described did replace a low cost method with a higher cost one. The strange part of the situation was that the satisfaction level of the patients was not very high. From my point of view, given that the allopath had told them that their condition was permanent, degenerative and would require meds for the rest of their life, I felt that I had witnessed more than a few miracles. Patients weren't as impressed. However, my point was that in this society (My practice was a few miles from one of 20 or so " Top Ten Medical Centers in the Country " ) the machines, the graphs and the mystery of computer aided analysis had the same function as the " presence " of the doctor in old China. People felt more confident in their treatment. As a practitioner of TCM, none of that stuff made much difference to me... I still did my essential dx and tx the same old way. But what did happen was that the patients had more confidence and they referred more of their friends for the treatment of allergies as well as other problems. I think this was because instead of seeming strange to their way of thinking, now the whole course of treatment seemed to fit into their expectations of what constituted leading edge medicine. And both top and bottom lines were improved significantly, thereby helping to insure the stability of my practice. As someone steeped in oriental philosophy and culture, I find the addition of these trappings of technology superfluous. However, adding them enabled me to treat many more patients than I would have without them. Guy Porter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 , DrGRPorter@a... wrote: > > As someone steeped in oriental philosophy and culture, I find the addition of > these trappings of technology superfluous. However, adding them enabled me to > treat many more patients than I would have without them. the ethical bind of how to market medicine, a service that should ideally sell itself. new px are under different constraints than old-timers as far as practice building goes. we need to be flexible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 In our clinic we used to have a kit with a $400 machine (which I would be tempted to call the " Bing Machine " ) and an entire setup so that we could deploy two docs and the clinic staff whenever we found a health fair or really even a town event. Each of these events turned into a virtual new patient factory. Basically, we were able to get people talking about their problems, we then showed them how the diagnostics might relate our treatment to their problems and offered them a free exam if they made the appointment right there. I can't count the number of people who, in 6 weeks of treatment, got tremendous relief from problems that they had had for years or decades. All you TCM practitioners do this every day yourselves. Those health fairs are a great way to share this miracle with people who would never have gotten it otherwise. At a decent event you should be able to get 30 or 40 new people with just one doc and a good assistant. If someone produced a very complete kind of book that told acupuncturists exactly the steps to follow to get 30 or 40 new patients from a " Health Fair, " do you think any would be interested in it? Or do you already have this kind of knowledge throughout the acupuncture/TCM community? Guy Porter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 I get your point, Guy. Patients are a funny group. I would be intrested to see what they would have said if you just raised your price without the machinery - I think some would have been also impressed just because it cost more. Reminds me of two things. 1. A teacher of mine (Julian Scott) told us 'if your patients complain that your price is too high, then raise it, and if they complain it's a good value for the money, then lower it.' It's a funny sentence, but since I've been in practice for a while, now I see the wisdom in it. 2. If you haven't read it, read the chapter on Ginseng in Unshuld's 'Forgotten traditions in Ancient CM' - this isn't the first time that 'machines that go bing' have unduly impressed patients. Thanks all for the great input - I don't know where to get a good machine that goes bing, so I think I'll try some 'FIRE CUPPING' or 'FIRE NEEDLE' or even 'GREEN TORTISE SEARCHING FOR SEA CAVE' - maybe that'll impress them. Of course, if I could just get stroke patients to stand out of their wheelchairs on stage like Dr. Zhu does, I think that would be just as / probably more effective. Geoff > __________ > > Message: 15 > Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:35:19 EST > DrGRPorter > Re: Health fair ideas/ Hi Tech > > In a message dated 3/8/2004 9:58:50 AM Central Standard Time, > zrosenbe writes: > > > Sounds more like 'bada bing'. > > > > Maybe I am missing the point of your post, but I can't see why one > > should replace or augment an effective, low tech therapy like > > acupuncture and herbal medicine with one that costs six > times as much. > > This would seem to be the opposite of 'the doctor as > medicine' concept. > > > > > > > > Frankly, Z'ev, it was more like Cha' Ching... My practice > became much more > profitable, and the patients were far more satisfied with > their treatment. > > I am not advocating this approach necessarily, however, I was > responding to > the question about what to do at a health fair and the question about > chiropractors and machines that draw interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 Doug: I can't lay my hands on it just now, but it was a $400 machine that measured resistance at the Ting points, combined with a $250 program we installed on a laptop that printed out " Meridian Graphs " showing high and low " energy levels. " Some of the symptoms associated with the meridian functions were viewable on the laptop. Alon and Z'ev: BEFORE YOU GET UPSET... we used this as a guideline that enabled us to talk about the symptoms they were having and what was going on in their lives with stress and all. Then we talked a little about what TCM and chiropractic (tui na?) could do to help them. While we didn't consider that this was the entirety of the diagnosis, the patients who were accustomed to getting treated by allopaths did put much more stock in the computer print outs than in me palpating their wrists and looking at their tongue. I did not feel it necessary to confront this non-issue with them at any point in the doctor patient relationship. Finally, we offered them the opportunity to get an exam at the clinic. Beth: We found someone who actually had experience with talking to crowds and had no problem stepping out into the throng to bring in curious people. I just sat in the back of the booth and talked to people who were interested in talking about their health. It was quite relaxing and pleasant once we got the routine down. As for the entire procedure, there are about three effective ways to do this and thousands of ways to do it wrong and waste your time. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 Just one word of caution with health fairs. Check your state's laws. Needling demonstrations on people at fairs most likely requires that you have charting and consent forms filled out, etc. Ross Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 Which " bing/ka ching machine " do you have? doug , DrGRPorter@a... wrote: > In our clinic we used to have a kit with a $400 machine (which I would be > tempted to call the " Bing Machine " ) and an entire setup so that we could deploy > two docs and the clinic staff whenever we found a health fair or really even a > town event. > > Guy Porter > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 I've seen similar machines at chiro offices - the 'infrared' scanner on wheels that runs down the sides of the spine and charts it out. There was a seminar I went to that had another machine that measured resistance on certain points and also graphed it out - but I don't remember what they were called. I'm sure if you pick up a chiropractic newsletter / chiropractic today - you'll see them full of ads for these kinds of bing / I ching ka ching type of gizmos. I think you're right - the key is to get the patients to start asking questions. When I would needle one of the MD's at the hospital - all the others would start asking questions. I'm thinking I can be the bing machine by doing pulse diagnosis and then asking questions. I think it should have the same effect as a print out if you can name a couple of complaints just by looking at the complexion and pulse. They'll get more interested as they start talking. I'll just need to find a comfortable / portable way to situate patients to check the pulse. Geoff > __________ > > Message: 19 > Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:32:32 EST > DrGRPorter > Re: RE: Health fair ideas/ Hi Tech > > Doug: > > I can't lay my hands on it just now, but it was a $400 > machine that measured > resistance at the Ting points, combined with a $250 program > we installed on a > laptop that printed out " Meridian Graphs " showing high and > low " energy > levels. " Some of the symptoms associated with the meridian > functions were viewable on > the laptop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 Alon and Z'ev: BEFORE YOU GET UPSET... >>>I would not get upset but would point out that due to many technical problems these systems can not be accurate unless they are extremely expensive. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 Guy, I think this would be very well-received and valuable. I'd want one! If someone produced a very complete kind of book that told acupuncturists exactly the steps to follow to get 30 or 40 new patients from a " Health Fair, " do you think any would be interested in it? Or do you already have this kind of knowledge throughout the acupuncture/TCM community? Guy Porter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 Geoff, Michael Broffman and the Pine Street Foundation organize a yearly Chinese medicine health screening in Marin County that is very successful, exposing a large number of people to booths for pulse, tongue, palpation and questioning diagnosis. I think this is one way to promote Chinese medicine in an undiluted fashion. Check out pinestreetfoundation.org for more information, including photos and a poster of last year's event. On Mar 9, 2004, at 7:38 AM, Geoffrey Hudson wrote: > I'm thinking I can be the bing machine by doing pulse diagnosis and > then > asking questions. I think it should have the same effect as a print > out > if you can name a couple of complaints just by looking at the > complexion > and pulse. They'll get more interested as they start talking. I'll > just need to find a comfortable / portable way to situate patients to > check the pulse. > > Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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