Guest guest Posted March 25, 2004 Report Share Posted March 25, 2004 Well girls and boys, as i warned in an article over 10 years ago it now looks like work comp in cal will not cover acup. State fund now states: Per laor code section 4610(d) ACOEM guidlines all care must be based on evidence based. " acupuncture has not been found effective in the management of back pain, based on several high-quality studies, but there is anecoctdal evidence of its successes. " therefore based on ACOEM guidelines, Edition 2, Published January 2004, we will not pay for acupuncture. If you think studies like the German study will not effect you just stay asleep. When i wrote the article some 10 years ago all i heard is everybody loves us, we are much cheaper than everybody else, dont worry, dont be an alarmist, etc. As you can see the writing is on the wall. I think you guys in schools with excess to large number of patients better get it together all we will not have a profession. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2004 Report Share Posted March 25, 2004 , " alon marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: State fund now states: Per laor code section 4610(d) ACOEM guidlines all care must be based on evidence based. > " acupuncture has not been found effective in the management of back pain, based on several high-quality studies, but there is anecoctdal evidence of its successes. " therefore based on ACOEM guidelines, Edition 2, Published January 2004, we will not pay for acupuncture. Alon Where did this come from? It looks like its brand new. Is the last line an exact quote from the guidelines or is it your interpretation (i.e. we will not pay for acupuncture)? With the delay on WC checks, I bet people are just finding out now that they are not getting paid if this is being widely enforced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2004 Report Share Posted March 25, 2004 I haven't been able to find 4610 in electronic version on web. So are my students who last year got these Workers Comp jobs now f------ed (fried)? has anyone else heard of people being denied WC recently? doug , " alon marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Well girls and boys, as i warned in an article over 10 years ago it now looks like work comp in cal will not cover acup. State fund now states: Per laor code section 4610(d) ACOEM guidlines all care must be based on evidence based. > " acupuncture has not been found effective in the management of back pain, based on several high-quality studies, but there is anecoctdal evidence of its successes. " therefore based on ACOEM guidelines, Edition 2, Published January 2004, we will not pay for acupuncture. > If you think studies like the German study will not effect you just stay asleep. When i wrote the article some 10 years ago all i heard is everybody loves us, we are much cheaper than everybody else, dont worry, dont be an alarmist, etc. > As you can see the writing is on the wall. I think you guys in schools with excess to large number of patients better get it together all we will not have a profession. > Alon > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2004 Report Share Posted March 25, 2004 These are the words. It comes from state fund alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2004 Report Share Posted March 25, 2004 , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > These are the words. It comes from state fund > alon what is " state fund " ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2004 Report Share Posted March 25, 2004 A workcomp insurance carrier Teresa Hall, L.Ac, M.S, Q.M.E. 619-517-1188 - " " < Thursday, March 25, 2004 4:40 PM Re: WC > , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote: > > These are the words. It comes from state fund > > alon > > > what is " state fund " ? > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2004 Report Share Posted March 25, 2004 State fund is the largest WC carrier in CA. Has anybody been paid by them in 2004? Or has anyone on the list got authorization for treatment in 2004? I am really curious to see what the medical world will do with the new prolotherapy study that showed no difference between the prolo group and the saline group. The study did state that both groups did quite well and got good pain control and increased function. If this study is going to be used against prolotherapy then it will the same as what we face with sham vs. real acup. If they are going to say the study showed that ligament injections are useful clinical tool then i think we could use it for our advantage. I am going to an orthopedic meeting next month and will report Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2004 Report Share Posted March 27, 2004 , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > State fund is the largest WC carrier in CA. Has anybody been paid by them in 2004? Or has anyone on the list got authorization for treatment in 2004? > I am really curious to see what the medical world will do with the new prolotherapy study that showed no difference between the prolo group and the saline group. The study did state that both groups did quite well and got good pain control and increased function. If this study is going to be used against prolotherapy then it will the same as what we face with sham vs. real acup. If they are going to say the study showed that ligament injections are useful clinical tool then i think we could use it for our advantage. I am going to an orthopedic meeting next month and will report > Alon > I have been paid by State Fund in 2004, however I am not sure that the authorizations I have been paid for occurred in 2004. I will have to look when I am at my office. Misha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2004 Report Share Posted March 27, 2004 I have been paid by State Fund in 2004, however I am not sure that the authorizations I have been paid for occurred in 2004. I will have to look when I am at my office. Misha >>>>Misha this only applies to 2004 and i think from February on, but I am not sure. I have also received payments on a patient seen in January 2004. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2004 Report Share Posted March 29, 2004 Here are some more wording from the WC letter. " Since the NIH consensus statement on acup suggested it may have some value with cretin pain syndromes, there has been increasing application in the clinical arena. Unfortunately, the NIH statement was tenuous and based upon very limited evidence. Thus the NIH statement should not be viewed as adequate evidence for recommending acupuncture with chronic non-malignant pain syndrome patients. In fact, a review of the literature since 1995 failed to show consistent, well-controlled research support for the routine application of acupuncture. Indeed, a recent study using more valid research methodology found that acup was of little effectiveness for acute and chronic low back pain. Review of the patient sample used indicated that chronic non-malignant pain syndrome patients were included. Given this, and until more consistent, well controlled studies demonstrate effectiveness, the current guidelines do not recumbent that acupuncture be used with chronic non-malignant pain syndrome patients " Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2004 Report Share Posted March 29, 2004 , " alon marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: a review of the literature since 1995 failed to show consistent, well- controlled research support for the routine application of acupuncture. Indeed, a recent study using more valid research methodology found that acup was of little effectiveness for acute and chronic low back pain. Review of the patient sample used indicated that chronic non-malignant pain syndrome patients were included. Given this, and until more consistent, well controlled studies demonstrate effectiveness, the current guidelines do not recommend that acupuncture be used with chronic non-malignant pain syndrome patients " that seems pretty clear. anyone who is investigating this matter should inquire about conditions other than low back pain as there is no evidence for those, either. Interesting scenario. I wonder what kind of political maneuvering would get the state fund to ignore the evidence or lack thereof. In the absence of good research, politics is whimsical. Today's friends are tomorrow's enemies. As long as cultivating friends in high places is how we make our headway, we are always one election away from disaster. If evidence showed acupuncture was effective for LBP at less cost than WM, then it would be a no-brainer to our cost cutting governor. It can be no coincidence that Governor Arnie came into power swearing to cut costs and eyeing the WC budget. While he wrangles with how to get his measures enshrined into law by either the legialsture or a referendum, he still has a few options available to him right away. One power given to the executive that can wielded without any consent from the assembly or public is to enforce existing laws. It appears the guv may be asking the state fund to enforce existing law which mandates evidence based treatment as the standard of care. Clever guy. Is there enough evidence for chiro and PT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2004 Report Share Posted March 29, 2004 Is there enough evidence for chiro and PT? >>>Chrios only for acute simple low back pain, possibly neck pain. PT only for active rehab, i.e. exercises Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2004 Report Share Posted March 29, 2004 , " alon marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Is there enough evidence for chiro and PT? > >>>Chrios only for acute simple low back pain, possibly neck pain. PT only for active rehab, i.e. exercises so what form of WC therapy IS evidence based? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2004 Report Share Posted March 29, 2004 so what form of WC therapy IS evidence based >>>>>No evidence for ultrasound, electostim, very mixed on TENS, and most other modalities. Life is going to change. What worries me is that this is were all insurance is going. I think we are seeing the tip of the iceberg alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2004 Report Share Posted March 29, 2004 I hear they are giving away land in Kansas... (my home state) doug , " alon marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > so what form of WC therapy IS evidence based > >>>>>No evidence for ultrasound, electostim, very mixed on TENS, and most other modalities. Life is going to change. What worries me is that this is were all insurance is going. I think we are seeing the tip of the iceberg > alon > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2004 Report Share Posted March 29, 2004 *LOL* Very Funny Doug Teresa Hall, L.Ac, M.S, Q.M.E. 619-517-1188 - " " Monday, March 29, 2004 6:18 PM Re: WC > I hear they are giving away land in Kansas... (my home state) > doug > > , " alon marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote: > > so what form of WC therapy IS evidence based > > >>>>>No evidence for ultrasound, electostim, very mixed on TENS, and most > other modalities. Life is going to change. What worries me is that this is were all > insurance is going. I think we are seeing the tip of the iceberg > > alon > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 I just heard from another practitioner that she was approved for some conditions by state fund but was denied treatment for all her low back pain patients. I think that is good news and means we need to collect positive studies and try to build a case for effectiveness of acup in low back pain. I still think we are dealing with different case managers not knowing what the new guidelines are. Also I am wandering what will happen with payments even on so-called approved treatments once they go the new mandatory medical review. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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