encapsulators

[Guest guest]

I had the need recently to take large doses of clear heat toxin herbs

for a poisonous insect bite. Not being able to stomach such a tea, I

decided to encap some granules. I have the cheapest manual cap 'm'

quick made. However I was able to encap 50 caps of my rx in less than

ten minutes. that amount of time is well worth it for those who want

the flexibility of granules w/o drinking the tea. While company

encapped granules cost 50% more thanpowdr, a patient could do this

every day as they watched TV and still have an affordable potent

product. for the math challenged, 50 " 00 " caps hold about 25 grams of

powder, which is about a two day average dose. for ten minutes, its

much faster than cooking tea and much less messy. I would sell the

cappers to ongoing patients.

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

 

FAX:

 

 

[Guest guest]

Do you have a brand for the encapsulator and does anyone have input into the

other automated encapsulators? Sounds like a good investment.

 

Ken

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ken

 

There are semi-automatic capsule making frames (100 per set up) which pack

very tight, and will load and separate caps, but it is all manual labor (no

magic machine). It's pretty efficient, I spent a day making caps at a

pharmacey of a friend and got 100 out every 5-6 minutes (1000 per hour or

so), her husband is faster. The lowest price I could find for one of those

was four hundred, I think, it was a while ago and I didn't buy it but I

remember thinking it was way too expensive.

(http://www.torpac.com/feton.htm) The little one's they sell in the store

are a step up on making them one at a time, but they're pretty labor

intensive if you want to give somebody caps at $10 per hundred or so, and

they don't tend to get well, or consistantly packed. Automatic machines

must cost substantially more....

 

Par

 

 

-

<krhkempo

 

Wednesday, March 31, 2004 9:06 AM

Re: encapsulators

 

 

> Do you have a brand for the encapsulator and does anyone have input into

the

> other automated encapsulators? Sounds like a good investment.

>

> Ken

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/1/2004 1:58:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,

parufus writes:

(http://www.torpac.com/feton.htm)

Thanks Pat. I'll look into it and tell you what I find

 

Ken

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " Par Scott " <parufus@e...> wrote:

I spent a day making caps at a

> pharmacey of a friend and got 100 out every 5-6 minutes (1000 per hour or

> so), her husband is faster.

 

 

I was making about 50 caps in a $10 manual encapper in about 8 minutes. Not

that labor intensive, IMO. easier than making teas.

 

The little one's they sell in the store

> are a step up on making them one at a time, but they're pretty labor

> intensive if you want to give somebody caps at $10 per hundred or so, and

> they don't tend to get well, or consistantly packed.

 

you can get caps much cheaper than $10 for 100, if that is what you meant.

750 )) for $11.20 at https://www2.acadia.net/cgi-bin/BAC/web_store.cgi

 

However while precapped herbs from qualiherb cost about 50% more than

loose powder, this really only translates to $1.35 per day extra for patients.

My eight minutes is worth more than $1.35, but many might find this a good

deal.

 

 

Automatic machines

> must cost substantially more....

 

I saw an office sized machine for about $1695 somewhere. Makes thousandsof

caps per day. Actually mightbe worth it. Then you could make the 50% markup

intead of the herb company.

 

todd

[Guest guest]

One issue with in-office encapsulating/tableting machines and decocting/vacuum

packaging devices is the set-up and clean-up times

between runs. Saying that machine can do x-number of tablets per

hour/day/whatever can be misleading. A more accurate

assessment would be how long from start to finish for running one-week's herbs

for one patient and then see how that translates to

30, 40, 50, or more patient prescriptions per week. For instance, we have always

filled 50% more prescriptions per week than the

number of patients I saw. This is based on 50% of patients only getting herbs

and not having a weekly office visit.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Hi

 

It's all true, I just don't like fiddly work, the thing I liked about my

friends machine was that it loaded and separated the parts in an automated

mechanical step, which kept me from having to separate the little things. I

was charging $10 per hundred, (I know one can get the caps much cheaper) so

I guess I could pull down $100 an hour if I decided to become a capsule

maven. I still get caps of huang lian and I have some da huang caps made

up, but generally I try to get people to try powders w/o caps, and most of

the time they're OK with it. I'm pretty small time, and I don't have too

much call for it, so I still use my Cap M Quik (SL Sanderson & Co. 173 Sandy

Springs Ln, Berry Creek CA 95916, I have no idea if they're still in

business, my Dad gave the thing to me a couple of years ago and it looks

like it's been around the block) a little injection-molded plastic gizmo,

perhaps like what you have. It works OK, but I pine for a slightly sexier

solution that doesn't cost hundreds and hundreds of dollars.

 

As for the automated machines, I think Bob's comments about production setup

come into play. I figure .5g per cap, for about 20 caps a day, or around

300 for two weeks. If you have a machine with a bed that seats a huge

number of capsules you might have to mask off areas you weren't using, and

then clean it between runs. If one were making one product to sell to a

variety of people that would be different.

 

There's a pharmacy near me where the doctors mother sits at the counter all

day making one cap at a time and chatting with the herb counter people, she

always has a huge stack of made up caps in front of her, and I'd estimate

she's doing one every 3-5 seconds, 12 per minute, 120 in ten minutes.

Perhaps having a good relationship with ones extended family is the key to

good encapsulation.

 

Par

 

 

-

" " <

 

Thursday, April 01, 2004 12:26 PM

Re: encapsulators

 

 

> , " Par Scott " <parufus@e...>

wrote:

> I spent a day making caps at a

> > pharmacey of a friend and got 100 out every 5-6 minutes (1000 per hour

or

> > so), her husband is faster.

>

>

> I was making about 50 caps in a $10 manual encapper in about 8 minutes.

Not

> that labor intensive, IMO. easier than making teas.

>

> The little one's they sell in the store

> > are a step up on making them one at a time, but they're pretty labor

> > intensive if you want to give somebody caps at $10 per hundred or so,

and

> > they don't tend to get well, or consistantly packed.

>

> you can get caps much cheaper than $10 for 100, if that is what you meant.

> 750 )) for $11.20 at https://www2.acadia.net/cgi-bin/BAC/web_store.cgi

>

> However while precapped herbs from qualiherb cost about 50% more than

> loose powder, this really only translates to $1.35 per day extra for

patients.

> My eight minutes is worth more than $1.35, but many might find this a good

> deal.

>

>

> Automatic machines

> > must cost substantially more....

>

> I saw an office sized machine for about $1695 somewhere. Makes

thousandsof

> caps per day. Actually mightbe worth it. Then you could make the 50%

markup

> intead of the herb company.

>

> todd

>

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I enjoy this thread about encapsulators and tincturing and personal

attention to preparation of herbs.

A few years ago I bought a similar machine (http://www.torpac.com/feton.htm)

from Min Tong (Oakland, Ca) for about $800. I ended up buying two of them

and selling them to friends (also acupuncturists) who used them more than I.

My clients preferred my liquid extracts. I also have other herbal machines.

I do a lot of tincturing or liquid extracts. A couple of small units that

can extract as low as 2 ounces to a vacuum distillation unit that can do a

gallon. I also have a high pressure unit that can extract 8 to 32 ounces

within one hour (based upon the principle of the percolation method commonly

used in the industry.

 

Each method consumes time.

Compared to the time and thought process that is involved in grabbing a

patent formula off the shelf to personally making a formula is hard to

justify in a practice. Affects - according to studies done by the

phytro-phameciauls are the same. (patent vs. raw)

 

Recently one patient i am treating using my tincture (Gui Zhi Fu Ling

variation) to treat fibroids and regulate her menstruation she reported as

being very successful. Came in with a report (off the web) of studies using

a patent Gui Zhi Fu Ling formula to reduce fibroids (very impressive

report). When her menstruation normalized we switched to the patent. After 3

weeks wanted to go back to my extract. She did say she preferred the taste

and convenience of the patent. But the patent was not working and maybe

getting worse!

 

As a practical matter of economics It would be in my financial interest to

have her continue the patents.

 

Ed Kasper LAc,

Santa Cruz, CA

--

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

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[Guest guest]

Effects - according to studies done by the

> phytro-phameciauls are the same. (patent vs. raw)

 

Whoa! If you're citing the study that was used as advertising a year or so ago

by one of the Taiwanese powdered extract companies,

the study only said that powdered extracts are as effective as water-based

decoctions when administered at similar dosages.

 

Let's not confuse apples and oranges. The study was only looking at

effectiveness of methods of administration. It was not comparing

standard ready-made formuals to individually written prescriptions. So saying

the effects of " patent vs.raw " are the same is extremely

misleading.

 

I agree that one does have to weight the cost-benefit ratio between individually

written and filled prescriptions and standard

ready-made medicines. Sometimes the cost (in time, money, effort, and adherence)

outweighs the therapeutic benefits. However, we

need to be very, very careful when making the kind of simplistic statements such

as the above. We are, after all, speaking in public

here.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

I am intersted in this thread also since I have recently decided to convert my

practice from a raw herb pharmacy to tinctures. I have a full pharmacy and will

tincture most of it to preserve the herbs. I find my patients will take the

tinctures or Kan extracts much more faithfully and love the results.

 

When making a tincture what is the ratio of herbs to alcohol for maximum

potency? How is potency calculated when tincturing? How long should the

tincture be saoked?

 

Eti

 

 

 

Ed Kasper LAc <eddy wrote:

I enjoy this thread about encapsulators and tincturing and personal

attention to preparation of herbs.

A few years ago I bought a similar machine (http://www.torpac.com/feton.htm)

from Min Tong (Oakland, Ca) for about $800. I ended up buying two of them

and selling them to friends (also acupuncturists) who used them more than I.

My clients preferred my liquid extracts. I also have other herbal machines.

I do a lot of tincturing or liquid extracts. A couple of small units that

can extract as low as 2 ounces to a vacuum distillation unit that can do a

gallon. I also have a high pressure unit that can extract 8 to 32 ounces

within one hour (based upon the principle of the percolation method commonly

used in the industry.

 

Each method consumes time.

Compared to the time and thought process that is involved in grabbing a

patent formula off the shelf to personally making a formula is hard to

justify in a practice. Affects - according to studies done by the

phytro-phameciauls are the same. (patent vs. raw)

 

Recently one patient i am treating using my tincture (Gui Zhi Fu Ling

variation) to treat fibroids and regulate her menstruation she reported as

being very successful. Came in with a report (off the web) of studies using

a patent Gui Zhi Fu Ling formula to reduce fibroids (very impressive

report). When her menstruation normalized we switched to the patent. After 3

weeks wanted to go back to my extract. She did say she preferred the taste

and convenience of the patent. But the patent was not working and maybe

getting worse!

 

As a practical matter of economics It would be in my financial interest to

have her continue the patents.

 

Ed Kasper LAc,

Santa Cruz, CA

--

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com).

Version: 7.0.230 / Virus Database: 262.6.5 - Release 3/31/2004

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " Ed Kasper LAc " <eddy@h...>

wrote:

 

> I do a lot of tincturing or liquid extracts. A couple of small units that

> can extract as low as 2 ounces to a vacuum distillation unit that can do a

> gallon. I also have a high pressure unit that can extract 8 to 32 ounces

> within one hour (based upon the principle of the percolation method

commonly

> used in the industry.

 

Ed

 

Are you referring to concentrated extracts in all these cases or just simple

soaking and decanting in some cases. I ask because Eti is planning to convert

her raw herb pharmacy to tincture, which is probably a good idea rather than

dispensing old herbs as many places do. she mentioned that her patients like

Kan extracts, but these are 8:1 concentrates according to their literature. If

you do use simple tinctures at times, I am curious at what dosage. both

european and chinese use of simple unconcentrated alcohol extracts has

always typically been at substantially higher dosage than what is used by

many american herbalists and what is labeled on these products in american

stores. for example, 1/2-1 oz of tincture per day is common in european

medical herbalism, while inamerica something like 30 drops TID would be

more common.

 

I use concentrated extracts from far east summit at times. they are about 5:1

and I dispense a 2 oz. bottle for about 7 days. I don't find simple tinctures

or

lower doses of concentrated products to be reliable at addressing branch

symptoms. While lower doses of these products may arguably be effective

over time for root yin organ disorders, I think that is a difficult matter to

assess, since so many other variables come into play over the long term

(accumulated benefits of dietary and lifestyle changes, self-limited or

intermittent nature of most illnesses, etc.).

 

I assume in most cases of chronic illness that either under the advice of one

of us, another physician or from the patient's own impetus, lifestyle changes

have been enacted. couple that with the specific and non-specific effects of

weekly acupuncture and it further clouds the matter. At this point, with this

much varied intervention over an often extended period of time, how can we

know what role if any the herbs played. for myself, the rapid relief of

bothersome symptoms and/or the relatively rapid and unexpected alteration of

objective biomedical parameters is much more convincing. And those are the

things I do not reliably see with simple tinctures of 5 grams per 1 ounce of

alcohol unless one drinks half the bottle at once.

 

[Guest guest]

I share your concern about the efforts of our profession.

Just my two cents here ...

It appears the public notion is that patents are as effective - if not more

reliable than a decoction made up in the back room of some local herbalist.

If not the intent it certainly is the outcome of the public presentation on

patent remedies. This may be fostered by Chiropractors, massage therapists,

and health food store clerks who hawk the patents. This perception is

reinforced by licensed acupuncturist/herbalist who dispense the same patents

in their office - usually at somewhat higher prices.

 

It also appears that [the] government shares our professional concerns for

the safe and effective dispension of the patents - Yet, most of the blame

falls on the raw bulk herb as the danger !

 

My question is why don't most acupuncturist/Herbalist have a bulk herb

pharmacy ?

 

Ed Kasper LAc. Santa Cruz, CA.

just getting my patent pharmacy set up after seven years working with bulk

herbs.

 

Hey if its a penny for your thoughts, and I give my two cents worth -

where's the other penny go ??

 

 

Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:42:35 -0000

" Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001

Re: encapsulators

 

Effects - according to studies done by the phytro-phameciauls are the same.

(patent vs. raw)

 

Whoa! If you're citing the study that was used as advertising a year or so

ago by one of the Taiwanese powdered extract companies, the study only said

that powdered extracts are as effective as water-based decoctions when

administered at similar dosages.

 

Let's not confuse apples and oranges. The study was only looking at

effectiveness of methods of administration. It was not comparing standard

ready-made formuals to individually written prescriptions. So saying the

effects of " patent vs.raw " are the same is extremely misleading.

 

I agree that one does have to weight the cost-benefit ratio between

individually written and filled prescriptions and standard ready-made

medicines. Sometimes the cost (in time, money, effort, and adherence)

outweighs the therapeutic benefits. However, we need to be very, very

careful when making the kind of simplistic statements such as the above. We

are, after all, speaking in public here.

 

Bob

--

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com).

Version: 7.0.230 / Virus Database: 262.6.5 - Release 3/31/2004

[Guest guest]

> My question is why don't most acupuncturist/Herbalist have a bulk herb

> pharmacy ?

 

> Ed Kasper LAc. Santa Cruz, CA.

> just getting my patent pharmacy set up after seven years working with bulk

> herbs.

 

Ed, and All,

 

I think the reason most LAcs do not set up a raw herb pharmacy is that it is

a big commitment of money, space,

time and conviction. You have spoilage, you have to spend 15 minutes for

each patient putting together the formula, and you have to work harder to

convince patients that decoctions are the best way to take Chinese herbs. I

do have a pharmacy of over 350 raw herbs and I only rarely use capsules.

Most LAcs opt for the easier solution even though we know that raw herbs are

best. If this were not true, then why are there endless discussions on this

list as to what tinctures, powders, pills and patents are most effective?

Nobody ever even discusses the efficacy of raw herbs, because it is well

known and obvious.

 

Julie Chambers

[Guest guest]

Eti,

 

> When making a tincture what is the ratio of herbs to alcohol for maximum

> potency?

 

For dried plants it's usually 1:5 at 60% alcohol. Because I often use 40%

alcohol I raise the ratio to 1:4. [Fresh herbs are at 1:2]

 

The formulas need to be dosed high (1 tsp 2-3x/day) and the number of herbs

kept down to six in order to make a dent in most people's conditons. [i've

found this to be good practice to keep a formula multi-layered in its

effects.] The herbs should be powdered (or mashed) prior to tincturing.

 

> How is potency calculated when tincturing?

 

By the ratio of menstruum (alcohol) to plant and the strength of the herbs

you begin with.

 

> How long should the

> tincture be soaked?

 

The rule of thumb is six weeks but I think after the first 24 hours you get

diminishing returns, especially if you powder the herbs. I almost always

wait at least a month. They should be kept in the dark and shaken

periodically. If you don't powder plants be sure to shake often as bulky

material may rise above the menstruum and start to mold.

 

David

 

*************************

David Bruce Leonard, L.Ac.

Medicine at your Feet

'Awapuhi Health Sanctuary

 

http://www.medicineatyourfeet.com

http://www.awapuhihealth.com

[Guest guest]

Julia I liked your response. " herbal decoctions are well known and obvious " .

And we know that tablets, capsules and pills with binders, fillers and

stabilizers are difficult to digest, poorly assimilated and are vastly more

profitable and easier to swallow.

 

For the most part I use a modified soxhlet. It's easy to tell when all the

herb has been extracted because you can see that the droplets are running

clear. Run time is a few hours and generally ending at about 1:2 ratio. Its

in a contained unit so violable oils (if any) do not escape.

 

 

Keeping it simple, 1905 Brussels protocol established these Herb to Solvent

Ratios:

1:1 ratio fresh plant to solvent.

1:5 (one part herb 5 parts solvent) for dried herbs

1:10 ratio for toxic herbs.

 

 

These ratios one may easily use several different methods of extraction.

maceration, percolation, distillation hydrosol, soxhlet, still, as well as

different solvents. like water, alcohol, glycerin, oils, and vinegar and of

course on to homeopathy from there.

 

 

All these methods may be easily accomplished in a simple kitchen.

A remedy can be made in a few hours, 1-2 days, weeks or can sit for months.

And they all work.

 

 

Ratios are typically (not always) dry weight herbs to solvent. Typically in

America ratios are a 5:1 or 8:1. One can not do a simple tincture (or

extract) at those high ratios. Many commercially produced extracts use harsh

chemicals and gases as the solvent and then attempt to recover the harsh

solvent out before bottling. CO2 is gaining popularity because it is an

excellent solvent, safe non-toxic and dissipates.

 

 

Alcohol is not the best solvent. And the percentage used varies with each

(western) herb.

see M. Moore's website for a listing.

 

 

In TCM preparations my personal recommendation is to use vinegar. Vinegar

has better qualities and less damaging than alcohol. Vinegar is astringing,

pulling, or leeching, toxins and old minerals from the body replacing them

with fresh minerals and nutrients. A weak vinegar may be used. USDA FDA

vinegar = 4% acetic acid. A 2 % works well for extraction as well as short

term preservative while most closing adhering to the signature of the

traditional prepared formula.

 

 

a few sources

most of the phytro-phamaceuticaals have full disclosure on their

preparations, ratios, as well as how many drops equal one bag of herbs.

 

James Green and Michael Moore http://www.swsbm.com/homepage/ are two popular

authors. http://www.botanical.com/ King's American Dispensatory

http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/eclectic/kings/juniperus-sabi.html

 

equipment

Fritz Chess at Eden lab http://www.edenlabs.org/ made most of my equipment

and has details of some common extraction methods.

 

When I was in school, and in TianJin, China, patients were prescribed bulk

herbs. These were dispensed in bags. No one weighed the bags. [the formula

was not weight dependent] One bag one day. In America it was one bag for

2-3 days. Pretty much the same for acupuncture treatment.

 

Low doses may be effective as large doses. Bulk herbs (not concentrates) are

reputed to be effective in capsules or when made into honey pills or taken

as drafts. Homeopathy, starts with a simple tincture.

 

So there are FDA approved clinical trials underway using Xiao Chai Hu Tang.

Is the herbal formula important or how the formula was prepared and in what

form ?

 

All forms are only indications or a benchmark. When used they have to be

adjusted both to the degree of the quality of the herb and to the

constitution of the individual, the relative strength of the individual and

the level of the disorder with the strength of the disorder. One thing that

is often mentioned and just as often over-looked in preparing these simple

tinctures and medicines is the intention to heal.

 

If one knows their formula, life is good.

 

 

 

 

Fri, 2 Apr 2004 20:17:24 -0800 (PST)

Eti Domb <etidomb

Re: RE: encapsulators

 

I am intersted in this thread also since I have recently decided to convert

my practice from a raw herb pharmacy to tinctures. I have a full pharmacy

and will tincture most of it to preserve the herbs. I find my patients will

take the tinctures or Kan extracts much more faithfully and love the

results.

 

When making a tincture what is the ratio of herbs to alcohol for maximum

potency? How is potency calculated when tincturing? How long should the

tincture be saoked?

 

Eti

 

Message: 6

Sat, 03 Apr 2004 07:30:12 -0000

" " <

Re: encapsulators

 

, " Ed Kasper LAc " <eddy@h...>

wrote:

 

> I do a lot of tincturing or liquid extracts. A couple of small units that

> can extract as low as 2 ounces to a vacuum distillation unit that can do a

> gallon. I also have a high pressure unit that can extract 8 to 32 ounces

> within one hour (based upon the principle of the percolation method

commonly

> used in the industry.

 

Ed

 

Are you referring to concentrated extracts in all these cases or just simple

soaking and decanting in some cases. I ask because Eti is planning to

convert

her raw herb pharmacy to tincture, which is probably a good idea rather than

dispensing old herbs as many places do. she mentioned that her patients

like

Kan extracts, but these are 8:1 concentrates according to their literature.

If

you do use simple tinctures at times, I am curious at what dosage. both

european and chinese use of simple unconcentrated alcohol extracts has

always typically been at substantially higher dosage than what is used by

many american herbalists and what is labeled on these products in american

stores. for example, 1/2-1 oz of tincture per day is common in european

medical herbalism, while inamerica something like 30 drops TID would be

more common.

 

I use concentrated extracts from far east summit at times. they are about

5:1

and I dispense a 2 oz. bottle for about 7 days. I don't find simple

tinctures or

lower doses of concentrated products to be reliable at addressing branch

symptoms. While lower doses of these products may arguably be effective

over time for root yin organ disorders, I think that is a difficult matter

to

assess, since so many other variables come into play over the long term

(accumulated benefits of dietary and lifestyle changes, self-limited or

intermittent nature of most illnesses, etc.).

 

I assume in most cases of chronic illness that either under the advice of

one

of us, another physician or from the patient's own impetus, lifestyle

changes

have been enacted. couple that with the specific and non-specific effects

of

weekly acupuncture and it further clouds the matter. At this point, with

this

much varied intervention over an often extended period of time, how can we

know what role if any the herbs played. for myself, the rapid relief of

bothersome symptoms and/or the relatively rapid and unexpected alteration of

objective biomedical parameters is much more convincing. And those are the

things I do not reliably see with simple tinctures of 5 grams per 1 ounce of

alcohol unless one drinks half the bottle at once.

 

 

--

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com).

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