acupuncture: spiritual enlightenment? nah, parasympathetic rebuilding!

[Guest guest]

Dear Kayte, and Z'ev,

 

Just an observation on the physiological effect of acupuncture: I

believe that it is a mistake to call the sense of calm, relaxation and

clarity of mind that one feels after having received acupuncture as

either spiritual and/or a link of mind and body and/or even necessarily a

refining of connection between the body and the CNS. Though all the

above may or may not be true, they certainly are subjective.

 

What I would contend, is that the experience much more than affecting the

CNS, has a profound effect on the autonomic nervous system (ANS) and

brings about a paradigm shift from sympathetic division hyperstimulation,

to parasympathetic division rebuilding and calming.

 

The sympathetic ganglia are most often located near the spine. The

parasympathetic ganglia are usually located near the end organs that they

innervate, send impulses to , and essentially control, I would assume

close to the back shu points. The sympathetic roots exit the spinal

cord in the thoracic and lumbar regions, I assume around the hua tuo jia

ji points, whereas the parasympathetic nerve roots exit the CNS from the

brain stem, and from the sacral end of the spinal cord. (BTW, that's why

craniosacral therapy so powerfully ALSO stimulates the parasympathetic

branch, because of the emphasis on treating the occiput and the sacrum).

 

 

Now here's a question for you all, something I wish we could have

learned about in school, but never did: Has anyone done a comparative

study of the gangia and nerve ends of the ANS and its relationship with

the proximal acupuncture points? And if so what conclusions were drawn.

 

Thanks

 

Yehuda

 

PS> That doesn't invalidate that acupuncture can make us better vessels

to experience that which is subjectively spiritual!!!

 

 

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 03:46:59 -0000 " "

< writes:

>

> Gentlemen and Kayte,

>

> , " "

> <zrosenbe@s...>

> wrote:

>

> > I have also seen acupuncture as a bridge between the mind and

> body,

> >

> > On Apr 19, 2004, at 2:37 PM, wrote:

> >

> " acupuncture is the hyphen between mind

> > > and body " . It is this very equation that makes many think what

> we are doing

> is > > spiritual and the

> > > link what is missing to most Westerners.

>

> I notice you both referred to body and mind. I do not deny that

> acupuncture

> affects both body and mind because I do not think there is any

> dividing line

> between the two. Every medical phenomena has both experiential

> (higher level

> perceptual) and true sensory (raw physiological) aspects, as does

> any

> perceived event, IMO. It is when you get into the spiritual that

> you lose me. I

> posted Philippe's article (and it is one of the best I've seen on

> the topic)

> because it does not get lost in new age drivel. I don't believe it

> would be

> semantics to quibble over whether he means spirit in the western

> sense. And

> Kayte, chime in all you want. Never would take anything as

> disrespectful from

> you.

>

> I think it is clear that he is translating shen and that he portrays

> it in its

> chinese context when he writes, " Spirit (Shen) which includes all

> the

> elements of the psyche (perception, knowledge and feeling) and which

> governs

> and regulates all the body organs and vital functions. " Sounds like

> the CNS,

> not anything more transcendent. I posted this article because

> Philippe always

> sticks close to the chinese tradition as he understands it from his

> deep

> studies. And I do not think this article contradicts anything I

> have written so

> far. But rather supports a view of the body that is biological in

> nature.

>

> article at:

>

> http://.org/articles/nourishlife.shtml

>

> Ithink it is us who interject a transcendent spirituality into

> chinese medicine

> that was never there. And by that I mean connecting the practice of

> medicine

> to the patient's spiritual development or even, god forbid, the

> spiritual

> advancement of society as a whole. The goal of spiritual

> development is

> transcendence, getting into heaven, personal experience of deity,

> whatever.

> But this goal can be anathema to health. Meditation gives you

> hemorrhoids and

> prostate swelling if you don't get up and move around. In other

> words,

> advancing spiritually does not necessarily yield health benefits.

> And mental

> repose is not the ultimate goal of meditation. Mental repose is a

> bodymind

> level phenomena. Transcendence in buddhist practice does not

> necessarily

> lead to mental repose but a state beyond duality. Such a mind can

> still be

> tormented and the body wracked with disease.

>

> If people want to be priests of qi, that's OK, but the tradition

> being emulated

> is perhaps more akin to practices within taoist temples than in

> mainstream

> chinese medical circles. According to needham, the more fringe

> groups

> advocating various magico-religious health practices were often also

>

> politically and socially motivated as well. They wanted to see

> mainstream

> anti-metaphysical confucian culture overthrown. And don't mistake

> my use of

> the word fringe. there were probably more of these folks than

> there were

> confucian scholars by a long shot. but then a lot more people watch

> jerry

> springer than watch nova. so as Joseph campbell once said, in the

> realm of

> ideas, the majority (the masses) are usually wrong. In other words,

> they were

> outside the intellectual mainstream, just like those who watch jerry

> springer.

> some may have had something of value to offer. most were probbaly

> crackpots.

>

> Most americans don't seem to believe in science; they believe in

> alternate

> explanations of reality (religion, UFOs, new age, etc.). So its

> hardly surprising

> that acupuncture in america has played out as a cult in the eyes of

> the media ,

> with the word spirit popping up in every popular article on the

> subject. We

> should all indeed heed Philippe's words so that we can present a

> secular

> medicine to america, yet one that still rings true to chinese

> tradition and

> forms a solid foundation for any type of spiritual pursuit a patient

> might want

> to undertake. but to make cultivation of spirit in the

> metaphysically

> transcendent sense a central guiding principle of our medicine is

> the most

> harrowing path we can choose to take.

>

>

> I don't see why people can't see that this would be no different

> than making

> worship of the christian god a guiding premise in western

> healthcare. It

> sounds ludicrous, but as Brian Carter will tell you, the

> quasi-spiritual ideas

> espoused by some as part and parcel of TCM are considered

> blasphemous by a

> large number of christians. It does not matter how we couch them.

> Acupuncture is only truly nondenominational if it leaves the

> subject of

> transcendence to priests. It might seem to the more unitarian

> folks that

> nothing about taoist metaphysics is problematic, but many sectarian

> folks

> feel differently. I once cut my long hair so I wouldn't have to

> waste time

> getting past my appearance to promote chinese medicine. I don't

> want to

> waste time on selling chinese spiritual concepts to the public. I

> am drawn

> to these ideas. many are not. many consider them satanic. A good

> doctor does

> not need his patients to adopt spiritual beliefs to heal them and it

> disturbs

> me that the appearance we give to the public is sometimes the

> opposite.

>

 

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yehuda,

 

I have a couple of comments related to your post.

 

i agree with your suggestion that a prime effect of a successful acupuncture

treatment is a balancing of the autonomic nervous system. I have often

thought that the front MU points reflect the parasympathetic ganglia which, as

you

mention, synapse on or near the end organ, and that the back shu points reflect

the sympathetic chain of ganglia which run along the spine in the

thoraco-lumbar area. (I haven't seen any research on this topic, but then I

have really

looked for it either, so it may be out there.) All of the autonomic sensory

information does however return to the CNS. In at least one anatomy book I

have seen it says that some of the autonomic sensory enters the anterior portion

of the spinal cord, instead of the dorsal root where most of the sensory

information enters the CNS.

 

Contrary to what many people think, there IS constant revision of ideas in

western anatomy and physiology, and it is quite possible that all aspects of the

autonomic N.S have not yet been mapped by anatomists. (Anatomists didn't

even acknowledge the existense of autonomic sensory nerves until about 20 or 30

years ago, hence the old term 'cranial-sacral outflow system', meaning that it

is only a motor system, which it is not.) There may be microscopic autonomic

ganglia that follow, for example, the pathways of the yin qiao and yang qiao

'vessels'.

 

One more thing I'll add to the discussion. In the work I formerly studied

for nearly 20 years before starting in CM (that work is called Body-Mind

Centering®) a great deal of time was spent differentiating sensation (and

initiation

of movement) from various body systems. The movement and sensation of each

tissue was called its " mind " . In my experience the 'mind' called 'qi' in CM is

not the same as parasympathetic n.s. 'mind' or sympathetic n.s. 'mind'. Nor

is it the same as the mind of endocrine glands. 'Qi' shares similarities with

all these 'minds' but is not exactly the same as any physical tissue that we

studied. In my experience it is closest to the 'mind' of cellular-level

communication. It makes sense to me that meridians may be describing lines of

cellular-level communication, but of course this is just speculation.

 

I will stop there, since i know what I'm saying will not make sense to some

on this list, and I am reporting subjective experience, not studies.

 

-RoseAnne S.

[Guest guest]

Yehuda - now that I can " buy into " - however again we are faced with

the dilema, that it has not been proven (and then we have to ask by

whose standards, western/personal?). I know some of my patients

respond exactly the same way to just the smell of moxa and ask me to

burn it in the room, if it is not indiated in their treatment.

 

I sense therefore that it has a calming effect - parasympathetic

tonification - but can I support it statistically?

 

As far as your ganglia:ANS nerve end relationship goes - not a clue -

but perhaps the folks at UC Irvine might be interested in pursuing it

as a research project.

 

Kayte

 

, yehuda l frischman

<@j...> wrote:

> Dear Kayte, and Z'ev,

>

> Just an observation on the physiological effect of acupuncture: I

> believe that it is a mistake to call the sense of calm, relaxation

and

> clarity of mind that one feels after having received acupuncture as

> either spiritual and/or a link of mind and body and/or even

necessarily a

> refining of connection between the body and the CNS. Though all

the

> above may or may not be true, they certainly are subjective.

>

> What I would contend, is that the experience much more than

affecting the

> CNS, has a profound effect on the autonomic nervous system (ANS) and

> brings about a paradigm shift from sympathetic division

hyperstimulation,

> to parasympathetic division rebuilding and calming.

>

> The sympathetic ganglia are most often located near the spine. The

> parasympathetic ganglia are usually located near the end organs

that they

> innervate, send impulses to , and essentially control, I would

assume

> close to the back shu points. The sympathetic roots exit the

spinal

> cord in the thoracic and lumbar regions, I assume around the hua

tuo jia

> ji points, whereas the parasympathetic nerve roots exit the CNS

from the

> brain stem, and from the sacral end of the spinal cord. (BTW,

that's why

> craniosacral therapy so powerfully ALSO stimulates the

parasympathetic

> branch, because of the emphasis on treating the occiput and the

sacrum).

>

>

> Now here's a question for you all, something I wish we could have

> learned about in school, but never did: Has anyone done a

comparative

> study of the gangia and nerve ends of the ANS and its relationship

with

> the proximal acupuncture points? And if so what conclusions were

drawn.

>

> Thanks

>

> Yehuda

>

> PS> That doesn't invalidate that acupuncture can make us better

vessels

> to experience that which is subjectively spiritual!!!

>

>

> On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 03:46:59 -0000 " "

> writes:

> >

> > Gentlemen and Kayte,

> >

> > , " "

> > <zrosenbe@s...>

> > wrote:

> >

> > > I have also seen acupuncture as a bridge between the mind and

> > body,

> > >

> > > On Apr 19, 2004, at 2:37 PM, wrote:

> > >

> > " acupuncture is the hyphen between mind

> > > > and body " . It is this very equation that makes many think

what

> > we are doing

> > is > > spiritual and the

> > > > link what is missing to most Westerners.

> >

> > I notice you both referred to body and mind. I do not deny that

> > acupuncture

> > affects both body and mind because I do not think there is any

> > dividing line

> > between the two. Every medical phenomena has both experiential

> > (higher level

> > perceptual) and true sensory (raw physiological) aspects, as does

> > any

> > perceived event, IMO. It is when you get into the spiritual that

> > you lose me. I

> > posted Philippe's article (and it is one of the best I've seen on

> > the topic)

> > because it does not get lost in new age drivel. I don't believe

it

> > would be

> > semantics to quibble over whether he means spirit in the western

> > sense. And

> > Kayte, chime in all you want. Never would take anything as

> > disrespectful from

> > you.

> >

> > I think it is clear that he is translating shen and that he

portrays

> > it in its

> > chinese context when he writes, " Spirit (Shen) which includes all

> > the

> > elements of the psyche (perception, knowledge and feeling) and

which

> > governs

> > and regulates all the body organs and vital functions. " Sounds

like

> > the CNS,

> > not anything more transcendent. I posted this article because

> > Philippe always

> > sticks close to the chinese tradition as he understands it from

his

> > deep

> > studies. And I do not think this article contradicts anything I

> > have written so

> > far. But rather supports a view of the body that is biological

in

> > nature.

> >

> > article at:

> >

> > http://.org/articles/nourishlife.shtml

> >

> > Ithink it is us who interject a transcendent spirituality into

> > chinese medicine

> > that was never there. And by that I mean connecting the practice

of

> > medicine

> > to the patient's spiritual development or even, god forbid, the

> > spiritual

> > advancement of society as a whole. The goal of spiritual

> > development is

> > transcendence, getting into heaven, personal experience of deity,

> > whatever.

> > But this goal can be anathema to health. Meditation gives you

> > hemorrhoids and

> > prostate swelling if you don't get up and move around. In other

> > words,

> > advancing spiritually does not necessarily yield health

benefits.

> > And mental

> > repose is not the ultimate goal of meditation. Mental repose is

a

> > bodymind

> > level phenomena. Transcendence in buddhist practice does not

> > necessarily

> > lead to mental repose but a state beyond duality. Such a mind

can

> > still be

> > tormented and the body wracked with disease.

> >

> > If people want to be priests of qi, that's OK, but the tradition

> > being emulated

> > is perhaps more akin to practices within taoist temples than in

> > mainstream

> > chinese medical circles. According to needham, the more fringe

> > groups

> > advocating various magico-religious health practices were often

also

> >

> > politically and socially motivated as well. They wanted to see

> > mainstream

> > anti-metaphysical confucian culture overthrown. And don't

mistake

> > my use of

> > the word fringe. there were probably more of these folks than

> > there were

> > confucian scholars by a long shot. but then a lot more people

watch

> > jerry

> > springer than watch nova. so as Joseph campbell once said, in the

> > realm of

> > ideas, the majority (the masses) are usually wrong. In other

words,

> > they were

> > outside the intellectual mainstream, just like those who watch

jerry

> > springer.

> > some may have had something of value to offer. most were

probbaly

> > crackpots.

> >

> > Most americans don't seem to believe in science; they believe in

> > alternate

> > explanations of reality (religion, UFOs, new age, etc.). So its

> > hardly surprising

> > that acupuncture in america has played out as a cult in the eyes

of

> > the media ,

> > with the word spirit popping up in every popular article on the

> > subject. We

> > should all indeed heed Philippe's words so that we can present a

> > secular

> > medicine to america, yet one that still rings true to chinese

> > tradition and

> > forms a solid foundation for any type of spiritual pursuit a

patient

> > might want

> > to undertake. but to make cultivation of spirit in the

> > metaphysically

> > transcendent sense a central guiding principle of our medicine

is

> > the most

> > harrowing path we can choose to take.

> >

> >

> > I don't see why people can't see that this would be no different

> > than making

> > worship of the christian god a guiding premise in western

> > healthcare. It

> > sounds ludicrous, but as Brian Carter will tell you, the

> > quasi-spiritual ideas

> > espoused by some as part and parcel of TCM are considered

> > blasphemous by a

> > large number of christians. It does not matter how we couch

them.

> > Acupuncture is only truly nondenominational if it leaves the

> > subject of

> > transcendence to priests. It might seem to the more unitarian

> > folks that

> > nothing about taoist metaphysics is problematic, but many

sectarian

> > folks

> > feel differently. I once cut my long hair so I wouldn't have to

> > waste time

> > getting past my appearance to promote chinese medicine. I don't

> > want to

> > waste time on selling chinese spiritual concepts to the

public. I

> > am drawn

> > to these ideas. many are not. many consider them satanic. A

good

> > doctor does

> > not need his patients to adopt spiritual beliefs to heal them and

it

> > disturbs

> > me that the appearance we give to the public is sometimes the

> > opposite.

> >

>

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Has anyone done a comparative

study of the gangia and nerve ends of the ANS and its relationship with

the proximal acupuncture points? And if so what conclusions were drawn

>>>Yehuda you will get for info when my book is out

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks Alon,

 

When is the anticipated publication date?

 

Yehuda

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:40:36 -0500 " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus

writes:

> Has anyone done a comparative

> study of the gangia and nerve ends of the ANS and its relationship

> with

> the proximal acupuncture points? And if so what conclusions were

> drawn

> >>>Yehuda you will get for info when my book is out

> alon

>

>

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

Can you give us a sneak preview concerning my question?

 

Kol tuv ve'toda

 

Yehuda

 

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:40:36 -0500 " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus

writes:

> Has anyone done a comparative

> study of the gangia and nerve ends of the ANS and its relationship

> with

> the proximal acupuncture points? And if so what conclusions were

> drawn

> >>>Yehuda you will get for info when my book is out

> alon

>

>

[Guest guest]

Its almost done, i hope the a few months

alon