Guest guest Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 i live in hong kong. the companies i go with are hong kong and taiwan affiliated for cusztoms reasons. i am used to usa companies though and have been experiencing some discrepancies in the chinese companies' instrux. can someone please explain to me if they feel these instructions and dosages are appropriate? the companies in hong kong are all chinese speaking as are the formula labels. my unfamiliarity with changes in dosages makes me weary. i want to make sure the translation on the label sounds fit. furthermore, the instructions says to take a total of 42g of powder per day! in the usa, my powders instructed a maximum of 14g per day. i figure the concentrations are different or the translation is wrong. could someone please tell me what they think? i'd appreciate it. i cant change from raw to powders in my pharmacy until i am sure about the company i am going with. example: take jia wei xiao yao san: for the 100g powder bottled it says the following: 'each 14 grams contains': angelica 4g atractylodes 4g peony 4g bupleuri 4g hoelen 4g glycerrizza 2g moutan rad 2.5 g gardenia 2.5 g zingiberis 4g mentha 7g ....the ratio of herb and extract is 33:7 (4.65 : 1). STARCH 6.7 g ....take 14g 3xday.... i dont know about you but this seems quite high or the concentrations are quite low!! any opinions here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 If the powders really are close to 5:1 dosage, 42g day certainly sounds too much for the average patient without a extremely acute condition. However, beyond that it is very difficult to say from the research and literature any particular company supplies or the experiences of practitioners I have discussed this topic with. I have grave doubts about most of this informations accuracy simply due to the huge variances found. The simple answer seems to be.....if anyone really knows how to use granule/powder concentrates they are keeping it secret. There is NO consistency out there even when the powders are of the same ratio. IMO, as practitioners, the primary concern for us is therapeutic effect and safety. With providing an affordable service to our patients as a secondary concern. I would love to know the relative dosage of each powder/granule concentrate that is necessary to produce an equal effect of a decocted raw herb. Some companies claim a 5:1 ratio is just that...........if you would use 5g of a raw herb for decoction-use 1g of the concentrate. Another company with the same ratio will claim that a decoction only releases 30-50% of " actives " into solution and their concentration process releases up-to 95% of the actives. They go on to recommend therefore that the " therapeutic " equivalent is more in the range of 10-15:1. The real problem begins when you consider that each individual herb concentrate will vary greatly and the 5:1 ratio is just an " average " for the entire range they supply. Therefore, one herb may be a 2:1, while another may be 15:1. This information is next to impossible to get from outside China and Taiwan. The cynic in me wonders if this is just another case of the lao wai getting the " simple answer so we can understand it " attitude that pervades much of TCM in asia. Some companies claim their herbs are the most concentrated eg. 10:1 or higher. I have some doubts this is even possible for many herbs. Perhaps they are referring to the " therapeutic " equivalence rather than raw (before decoction) to concentrate. I would love to hear a clear explanation from some list members who sell concentrated products. Unfortunately, business marketing often seems to comes before truth. Sorry I have been of very little assistance to you in your responsible questioning of this important issue. Best Wishes, Steve On 21 Apr 2004, at 1:35 PM, lobrien74 wrote: > > i live in hong kong. the companies i go with are hong kong and taiwan > affiliated for cusztoms reasons. i am used to usa companies though and > have been experiencing some discrepancies in the chinese companies' > instrux. can someone please explain to me if they feel these > instructions and dosages are appropriate? > > the companies in hong kong are all chinese speaking as are the formula > labels. my unfamiliarity with changes in dosages makes me weary. i > want to make sure the translation on the label sounds fit. > furthermore, the instructions says to take a total of 42g of powder > per day! in the usa, my powders instructed a maximum of 14g per day. i > figure the concentrations are different or the translation is wrong. > could someone please tell me what they think? i'd appreciate it. i > cant change from raw to powders in my pharmacy until i am sure about > the company i am going with. example: > take jia wei xiao yao san: > > for the 100g powder bottled it says the following: > 'each 14 grams contains': > angelica 4g > atractylodes 4g > peony 4g > bupleuri 4g > hoelen 4g > glycerrizza 2g > moutan rad 2.5 g > gardenia 2.5 g > zingiberis 4g > mentha 7g > ...the ratio of herb and extract is 33:7 (4.65 : 1). > STARCH 6.7 g > ...take 14g 3xday.... > i dont know about you but this seems quite high or the concentrations > are quite low!! any opinions here? > Dr. Steven J Slater Practitioner and Acupuncturist Mobile: 0418 343 545 chinese_medicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 Hi lobrien74 & All, > i live in hong kong. the companies i go with are hong kong and > taiwan affiliated for cusztoms reasons. i am used to usa companies > though and have been experiencing some discrepancies in the > chinese companies' instrux. can someone please explain to me if > they feel these instructions and dosages are appropriate? the > companies in hong kong are all chinese speaking as are the formula > labels. my unfamiliarity with changes in dosages makes me weary. i > want to make sure the translation on the label sounds fit. > furthermore, the instructions says to take a total of 42g of > powder per day! in the usa, my powders instructed a maximum of 14g > per day. i figure the concentrations are different or the > translation is wrong. could someone please tell me what they > think? i'd appreciate it. i cant change from raw to powders in my > pharmacy until i am sure about the company i am going with. > example: take jia wei xiao yao san: > For 100g powder bottled it says the following: mentha 7g; STARCH > 6.7g; angelica 4g; atractylodes 4g; bupleuri 4g; hoelen 4g; peony > 4g; zingiberis 4g; gardenia 2.5g; moutan rad 2.5g; glycerrizza 2g; The above ingredient weights make 44.7g > .'each 14 grams contains': I do not understand; the sum of 44.7g is greater than 14g. > ..the ratio of herb and extract is 33:7 (4.65 : 1). I cannot understand what this means. > ...take 14g 3x/day.... i dont know about you but this seems quite > high or the concentrations are quite low!! any opinions here? Yes, I would like to hear other opinions of the need to take 42g of formula/day! Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 , " " <@e...> wrote: > > For 100g powder bottled it says the following: mentha 7g; STARCH > > 6.7g; angelica 4g; atractylodes 4g; bupleuri 4g; hoelen 4g; peony > > 4g; zingiberis 4g; gardenia 2.5g; moutan rad 2.5g; glycerrizza 2g; > > The above ingredient weights make 44.7g So, 100g of powder contains 44.7g of herbs. The rest must be filler. Therefore, take the total amount of powder being taken in one day and multiply by .447 to get the amount of concentrated herbs. > > > .'each 14 grams contains': > > I do not understand; the sum of 44.7g is greater than 14g. The 44.7g was to let you know the multiplier. A 14g dose of powder contains 14 X .447 = 6.258 g of concentrated herbs. > > > ..the ratio of herb and extract is 33:7 (4.65 : 1). > > I cannot understand what this means. > > > ...take 14g 3x/day.... i dont know about you but this seems quite > > high or the concentrations are quite low!! any opinions here? > > Yes, I would like to hear other opinions of the need to take 42g of > formula/day! A total daily dose of 42g of powder only contains 42 x .447 = 18.774g of concentrated herbs. If the herbs are a 5:1 concentrations this would be a decoction equivalent of 18.774 * 5 = 93.87 g, which is not too high. Brian C. Allen > > > Best regards, > > Email: <@e...> > > WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland > Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > > HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 I think you might be on the right track here Brain. What makes the dosage even lower if this is how it works is the 6.7g STARCH resulting in a total of 38g of herb concentrate per 100g. Putting this into your calculations it gives 42g X 0.38 = 15.96g a day. Very reasonable dosage of a 5:1 concentrate. Personally, I would have issue in giving a patient 62% filler and starch however. On 23 Apr 2004, at 4:56 AM, bcataiji wrote: > , " " > <@e...> wrote: > >>> For 100g powder bottled it says the following: mentha 7g; STARCH >>> 6.7g; angelica 4g; atractylodes 4g; bupleuri 4g; hoelen 4g; peony >>> 4g; zingiberis 4g; gardenia 2.5g; moutan rad 2.5g; glycerrizza 2g; >> >> The above ingredient weights make 44.7g > > So, 100g of powder contains 44.7g of herbs. The rest must be filler. > Therefore, take the total amount of powder being taken in one day and > multiply by .447 to get the amount of concentrated herbs. > > >> >>> .'each 14 grams contains': >> >> I do not understand; the sum of 44.7g is greater than 14g. > > The 44.7g was to let you know the multiplier. A 14g dose of powder > contains 14 X .447 = 6.258 g of concentrated herbs. > >> >>> ..the ratio of herb and extract is 33:7 (4.65 : 1). >> >> I cannot understand what this means. >> >>> ...take 14g 3x/day.... i dont know about you but this seems quite >>> high or the concentrations are quite low!! any opinions here? >> >> Yes, I would like to hear other opinions of the need to take 42g of >> formula/day! > > A total daily dose of 42g of powder only contains 42 x .447 = 18.774g > of concentrated herbs. > > If the herbs are a 5:1 concentrations this would be a decoction > equivalent of 18.774 * 5 = 93.87 g, which is not too high. > > Brian C. Allen > Dr. Steven J Slater Practitioner and Acupuncturist Mobile: 0418 343 545 chinese_medicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 , Steven Slater <dragonslive@i...> wrote: > I think you might be on the right track here Brain. What makes the > dosage even lower if this is how it works is the 6.7g STARCH resulting > in a total of 38g of herb concentrate per 100g. > > Putting this into your calculations it gives 42g X 0.38 = 15.96g a day. > Very reasonable dosage of a 5:1 concentrate. > > Personally, I would have issue in giving a patient 62% filler and > starch however. I have an old bottle of KPC herbs. they used to list all this stuff on the label: the bottle I have says that each 6 g of the powder was made from the extract of ten herbs at 2.4 g each (24 g total). The finished product listed 4 g extract made from the original 24 g (6:1 concentrate of extract alone) plus 2 g of starch. Because the ingredients (24 grams raw herbs, 4 grams extract and 2 grams starch) sum up to 30 grams, the 6 gram powder dose is considered a 5:1 final extract. So the final product is 1/3 starch or filler in this case (though much of the filler currently is reportedly made from the dried herb dregs). So every 24 grams of raw herbs results in 4 grams of 6:1 extract. It takes a 6 gram dose of powder to ingest that 4 g of extract. If you took 42 grams per day of this product, you would ingest 28 grams of extract. At a 6:1 concentration, you would be ingesting the equivalent of a 168 gram decoction. This may seem outrageously high, but is actually exactly in line for decoction level dosing inthe PRC. We have already had other reports that in the PRC, powders are used on an exact conversion from decoction levels and do not adhere to japanese levels. I think it is unlikely that the product is actually 2/ 3 filler. The chinese have adopted taiwanese technology and there is no reason it would make any sense to dilute the final product, especially with high PRC dosing. If the formula was prescribed for rather severe symptoms or an intractable condition, I am not surprised at this dosage even if my high estimates are correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 Personally, I would have issue in giving a patient 62% filler and starch however. <<<<<<When they make the consternate they do not first make a 5:1 and then add the starch. The amount of starch is calculated into the 5:1. Now many herbs and up being less that 5:1 and some more than 5:1. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 So if that is the case.......a daily dosage of 14g X 3 of a 5:1 ratio is the directions on the bottle. 42g X 5 = 210g raw of Jia Wei Xiao Yao San per day????? That is WAY too much in my opinion as a general indication for administration!!! Once again, I think it is safe to say we don't really know what the company is selling us or if their dosage recommendations are appropriate. On 25 Apr 2004, at 4:21 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > Personally, I would have issue in giving a patient 62% filler and > starch however. > > <<<<<<When they make the consternate they do not first make a 5:1 and > then add the starch. The amount of starch is calculated into the 5:1. > Now many herbs and up being less that 5:1 and some more than 5:1. > Alon > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 You are correct that materials used in granular form are of a worthwhile potency. The companies that manufacture these products are large pharmaceutical corporations, in fact, they supply the entire national healthcare system in Taiwan. National insurance provides for the coverage of granules in a plethora of private clinics and public hospitals. The companies making these products have no more incentive to produce bunk materials than a Western pharmaceutical company. If millions of patients were being sold bogus products in Taiwan, I guarantee that a few of the local doctors are clever enough to notice. The people that produce these products are chemists and specialists. The doctors that prescribe them are well-trained and see many dozens of patients per day. A useless product would be recognized as quickly as a valium look-alike pill with the diazepam removed. We are from the the only intelligent folks concerned about these issues. Interestingly, many doctors here compound granules, but they usually combine multiple formulas (each predecocted as a classic rx), with single herb additions. Practioners are not limited in their selection of ingredients by the limits of their overhead in stocking the pharmacy as in the West. Doctors debate on whether it works as effectively as raw (most believe raw decoctions are still superior), but the vast majority generally agree that they do work. Granules are significantly more affordable that raw herbs, which are typically not covered. Doctors have begun to design formulas in a different way, combining two major rx in different ratios and then adding singles. This produces a product with more medicinals that would be used together from scratch, but again it is accepted based on the fact that it gets decent results- and the alternative of raw is always accessible. Most patients in Taiwan's busy society are no more inclined to boil raw herbs at home than Western patients. Single serving doses of custom-mixed powder are dispensed in easy plastic strips for use. A little bag of pouches and one is set for a week, no measuring spoons required. -Eric Brand , " " wrote: > , Steven Slater <dragonslive@i...> > wrote: > > I think you might be on the right track here Brain. What makes the > > dosage even lower if this is how it works is the 6.7g STARCH resulting > > in a total of 38g of herb concentrate per 100g. > > > > Putting this into your calculations it gives 42g X 0.38 = 15.96g a day. > > Very reasonable dosage of a 5:1 concentrate. > > > > Personally, I would have issue in giving a patient 62% filler and > > starch however. > > > I have an old bottle of KPC herbs. they used to list all this stuff on the label: > > the bottle I have says that each 6 g of the powder was made from the extract > of ten herbs at 2.4 g each (24 g total). The finished product listed 4 g extract > made from the original 24 g (6:1 concentrate of extract alone) plus 2 g of > starch. Because the ingredients (24 grams raw herbs, 4 grams extract and 2 > grams starch) sum up to 30 grams, the 6 gram powder dose is considered a 5:1 > final extract. So the final product is 1/3 starch or filler in this case (though > much of the filler currently is reportedly made from the dried herb dregs). So > every 24 grams of raw herbs results in 4 grams of 6:1 extract. It takes a 6 > gram dose of powder to ingest that 4 g of extract. If you took 42 grams per > day of this product, you would ingest 28 grams of extract. At a 6:1 > concentration, you would be ingesting the equivalent of a 168 gram decoction. > This may seem outrageously high, but is actually exactly in line for decoction > level dosing inthe PRC. We have already had other reports that in the PRC, > powders are used on an exact conversion from decoction levels and do not > adhere to japanese levels. I think it is unlikely that the product is actually 2/ > 3 filler. The chinese have adopted taiwanese technology and there is no > reason it would make any sense to dilute the final product, especially with > high PRC dosing. If the formula was prescribed for rather severe symptoms or > an intractable condition, I am not surprised at this dosage even if my high > estimates are correct. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 , " smilinglotus " < smilinglotus> wrote: > Granules are significantly more affordable that raw herbs, which are > typically not covered. Doctors have begun to design formulas in a > different way, combining two major rx in different ratios and then > adding singles. This produces a product with more medicinals that > would be used together from scratch, but again it is accepted based > on the fact that it gets decent results- and the alternative of raw > is always accessible. Most patients in Taiwan's busy society are no > more inclined to boil raw herbs at home than Western patients. > Single serving doses of custom-mixed powder are dispensed in easy > plastic strips for use. A little bag of pouches and one is set for > a week, no measuring spoons required. > > -Eric Brand I would like to introduce everyone to Eric Brand. Eric is a graduate of PCOM, who is now living in taiwan and doing postgrad translation work with Nigel Wiseman. Eric distinguished himself at school by his knowledge of chinese language and culture. He also worked for years in a local herb shop. His spoken chinese gained him entree to a true apprenticeship in this setting, a path he has continued in taiwan. Eric is particularly knowledgeable in pao zhi methods, not just the textbook words, but extensive hands on experience in the cooking itself. Eric will be the CHA far east correspondent for the new upcoming public oriented newsletter. The newsletter will be called " Nourishing Life " and articles will be focused on providing accurate info on natural medicine, based upon actual chinese tradition and/or modern science. Eric willbe writing about his experiences with popular chinese health culture and professional taiwanese practice. Articles will be accpeted from those in one or more of the following categories: 1. experienced clinicians of ten years or more 2. read or speak chinese 3. living in china to study or practice TCM 4. science writers with an established resume of properly cited articles 5. published academics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2004 Report Share Posted April 26, 2004 --- . Most patients in Taiwan's busy society are no > more inclined to boil raw herbs at home than Western patients. > Single serving doses of custom-mixed powder are dispensed in easy > plastic strips for use. A little bag of pouches and one is set for > a week, no measuring spoons required. > > Eric For those of use still dealing with plastic spoons and either ziplock bags or recycled kpc containers....could you elaborate on the dispensing and patient prep over 7-10days. Turiya Hill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2004 Report Share Posted April 26, 2004 By the way those that have been saying that we cannot control for dosage using powders, let me remind you that depending on moister in the bulk herbs the weight can vary a lot more than the deviation we get in powders Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2004 Report Share Posted April 26, 2004 They use special machines that mix the powders evenly together, then it dispenses them in a strip of 6 or so sealed plastic pouches, each one a small square about 3 " wide. They usually have 3 pouches per day, so they would get 21 pouches to last a week. These machines are occassionally on display at events like the pacific symposium, but few clinics in the West have the volume to justify the machines. -Eric , " turiyahill " <turiya@j...> wrote: > --- . Most patients in Taiwan's busy society are no > > more inclined to boil raw herbs at home than Western patients. > > Single serving doses of custom-mixed powder are dispensed in easy > > plastic strips for use. A little bag of pouches and one is set for > > a week, no measuring spoons required. > > > > Eric > For those of use still dealing with plastic spoons and either > ziplock bags or recycled kpc containers....could you elaborate on the > dispensing and patient prep over 7-10days. > > Turiya Hill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.