Guest guest Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 This is from Gene Bruno, president, AAOM, on the AT website at http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/online/bottomline.html It was written in response to an article last month arguing the rights of chiros to practice acupuncture (but not oriental medicine). My thoughts are interspersed. Bruno writes, " In China, attempts to reduce the practice of acupuncture to a therapeutic technique have resulted in utter failures. Acupuncture, practiced without the benefit of the theoretical principles which underlie it, and the logic which informs its treatment plans, is at best minimal and perhaps detrimental in terms of patient use. Some argue that it creates a clear case of endangerment. " My thought: This does not seem to be accurate in light of the ongoing german research, which shows excellent results for medical acupuncture and sham acupuncture, both done without any traditional theory or dx. In fact, most chinese research on acupuncture has been allopathic, not involving pattern dx. Not only has the research shown this approach not to be detrimental, but actually quite effective. The word endangerment seems way over the top here. I understand the need to stake our claim here, but making such statements does not seem helpful. It does raise a good question, though. How are we to distinguish ourselves as the deserving guardians of Oriental Medicine? I have said before that I think this battle is a losing one. Medical acupuncture appears to be at least as safe and effective as TCM. If we claim otherwise, we will just draw even more scrutiny upon our own lack of supporting research. We can't win the battle of who gets to insert needles and upon what basis. We need to focus upon protecting our right to practice at all. If we prove our methods effective, it doesn't matter if other methods are equally effective. We get to keep our piece of the pie. But if we continue to devote precious time and resources to trying to prove other folks are dangerous and ineffective (when the evidence overwhelmingly suggests otherwise), we will lose our place at the table. More and more, medicine will become evidence based. and the evidence just does not seem to be on our sides. We should all band together to do the research, rather than fight amongst ourselves. I don't really understand why its so important to some people that the way we do things is right and the way MD's do them is wrong. Part of understanding chinese medicine is learning to accept irreconcilable contradictions between schools of thought or famous physicians. Is it possible to entertain the idea that western medicine is just another school of thought. Perhaps we could call it the anatomical school. Why is it such a stretch to accept that if acupuncture can be applied successfully according to the five phases or the mirroring of Dr. Tan or the zang-fu method of TCM or the auricular of nogier or the hand needling of korea, that it could also work when applied according to a neurophysiological model. I think we need to let go of this its our way or the highway mentality when we cannot even agree on what is our way. If we are willing to accept the diversity within the field, we must accept that from outside as well. To be honest, things like NAET and the use of tuning forks to balance chakras as well as countless dubious electronic technologies concern me far more than the practicing based upon a neurophysiological model. Are we prepared to purge the heretics from within our ranks as well. Bruno goes on, " Second, the fully expanded practice of Oriental medicine adds to the study and practice of acupuncture the use of the vast field of traditional Chinese herbal medicine. The use of herbal medicine for the treatment of disease is based upon the same underlying theoretical framework as the practice of all aspects of Oriental medicine; therefore, the study of acupuncture and Chinese herbal medicine combine synergistically to form the unitary practice of Oriental medicine. This term is now widely accepted throughout the world, and the degree in Oriental medicine is now the accepted degree in the United States, Korea, Taiwan and numerous other venues. But the separation of any of these therapeutic interventions from the body of knowledge that underlies them is anathema to the proper and responsible practice of this medicine, or indeed, any medicine. " My thought: According to Unschuld, most acupuncture has been practiced historically by those who were unfamiliar with any written theory, as they were illiterate. Historically very few acupuncturists were also herbalists. No harm seems to have been done as a result. In modern times, many countries regulate acupuncture as a distinct medical practice, separate from herbal practice and sometimes as part of western medicine. This includes france, germany, japan. And in the PRC, TCM docs are trained as either acus OR herbalists, rarely both. Again, no harm seems to come of this. The case of absolute necessity for not separating acupuncture from OM remains weak, IMO. It is thus ironic that Mr. Bruno elsewhere in the article says, " The Council of Colleges of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine is already working diligently on a degree at the doctoral level to continue the study of acupuncture as a solitary practice well beyond even 3,000 hours of study. In Japan, the practice of acupuncture is the practice of Oriental medicine, and the training for acupuncturists is at least as rigorous as the training for any other branch of medical practice. " My thought: If acupuncture must be part of an integrated " oriental medicine " for " proper and responsible practice " , why point to the importance of standalone doctoral acupuncture programs and japanese training (which does not include herbs) as part of your argument? In Japan, despite our fascination with their " classical " meridian styles, much acupuncture is actually practiced as a form of medical acupuncture according to modern physiology. This is reported by shudo denmei in his meridian acupuncture text. In addition, I highly doubt that " the training for acupuncturists is at least as rigorous as the training for any other branch of medical practice [in Japan]. " I think it takes two or three years. Perhaps someone could comment more accurately on this. Bruno follows with, " Third, the promotion of adopting of a sterile group of interventions and practices by other professions is not acceptable to most medical fields. Why, then, should it be acceptable to Oriental medicine? For a comparative example, we could extract adjustment techniques from the study of chiropractic. It is foolish to assume that 100 or 150 hours is not sufficient for any reasonably skilled medical professional in any other field to learn to perform chiropractic adjustment by rote. Would the field of chiropractic then suggest that licensed acupuncturists throughout the country study adjustment technique for 100 hours, then practice as much of that medicine as they felt they could comfortably deliver? " My thought: In fact, many acus in CA do perform spinal manipulation, claiming it is allowed under our oriental massage provision. I believe Alon will confirm this. However, there is minimal to no training and supervised clinical practice of spinal manipulation. I do not dispute that manipulation is part of tui na, but if we are to do it, then should we not be trained in it to a reasonable number of hours. The same goes for the ordering of lab tests, x-rays, etc. There is little academic or clinical training in these areas. Same for the recommendation of western herbs and other supplements to " promote, maintain and restore " health, legal under CA law. Yet also no training in these areas. While many people believe it is legal to prescribe anything that is sold in a healthfood store, actually it is technically illegal to treat any illness with herbs unless your scope of practice explicitly allows it. So, for example, the rx of western herbs and most other supplements is illegal in OR for acus. I won't debate this last statement. It was worked out with lawyers from NCCAOM when I was at OCOM. Talk to them. In some states, scope does not allow herbs at all. But in others with broad herbal scopes, there are acus who never studied herbology or took a board exam in herbs. Should those acus now be banned from herbal practice w/o more schooling. And yet we seem to do all these things safely, just as it appears medical acupuncture is performed safely across the world. Do we really want to open this can of worms. We might be the ones who end up worm food. Chinese Herbs FAX: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 I think, actually, that Dr. Amaro, the chiropractor who in his AT article suggested calling acupuncture as practiced by M.D.'s and D.C.'s by a different name, i.e. not Chinese medicine, had a politically realistic solution to the problem. I don't think, practically speaking, we can stop the adaption of acupuncture by other professions at this point. We need to, as you've suggested, stake out our own turf. In the past, chiropractic/M.D. training was quite deficient in acupuncture. In Colorado 20 years ago, folks like myself who were trained in Chinese medicine couldn't advertise as acupuncturists, while chiros and M.D.'s could. There were some incidents of punctured organs from chiropractors at that time, (I knew two cases of pneumothorax and one of a punctured kidney!). By speaking with the chiropractic board about this, when I was president of the Acupuncture Association of Colorado, along with a few colleagues, we were able to get an agreement to change chiropractic advertising (no more use of the term acupuncturist), and to improve standards of training. After that, for awhile, chiropractors only used the 'tai-shin' and laser or electric devices. Action could have been taken on a more national scale, perhaps, 15 years ago, but now the best we can do is define our turf, and agree to label M.D. and chiropractic acupuncture separately, including what is treated. As more people experience acupuncture, it may actually benefit us from the exposure. . . as long as they are reasonably trained and people have a good experience with it. While acupuncture and herbal medicine may be separated in Japan and China, I don't think it is a good idea to separate them here in America. I think we need to identify with Chinese herbal medicine and its vast knowledge base in order to give ourselves something to hang our hats on. It is fine if people want to concentrate on one or the other, but I think separating the acupuncture and herbal professions will weaken our stance as health professionals in this country. I think, ultimately, the doctorate degree status will be where it is at. I see us potentially as " Chinese naturopaths " , and hope we can have the same standing as naturopaths (i.e. alternative docs) in Western health care. On Apr 23, 2004, at 1:55 PM, wrote: > It was written in response to an article last month arguing the rights > of chiros to practice acupuncture (but not oriental medicine). My > thoughts are interspersed. > > Bruno writes, " In China, attempts to reduce the practice of acupuncture > to a therapeutic technique have resulted in utter failures. > Acupuncture, practiced without the benefit of the theoretical > principles which underlie it, and the logic which informs its treatment > plans, is at best minimal and perhaps detrimental in terms of patient > use. Some argue that it creates a clear case of endangerment. " > > My thought: This does not seem to be accurate in light of the ongoing > german research, which shows excellent results for medical acupuncture > and sham acupuncture, both done without any traditional theory or dx. > In fact, most chinese research on acupuncture has been allopathic, not > involving pattern dx. Not only has the research shown this approach > not to be detrimental, but actually quite effective. The word > endangerment seems way over the top here. I understand the need to > stake our claim here, but making such statements does not seem > helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2004 Report Share Posted April 24, 2004 In a message dated 4/23/04 4:56:19 PM, writes: > " If we prove our methods effective, it > doesn't matter if other methods are equally effective. We get to keep > our piece of the pie. But if we continue to devote precious time and > resources to trying to prove other folks are dangerous and ineffective > (when the evidence overwhelmingly suggests otherwise), we will lose our > place at the table. " > The following are the personal opinions fo David Molony, and not of any organizations or anything else I may now or ever participate in. Jeez, what a world we live in. I don't think that we are talking styles of acupuncture being effective or ineffective, but comparisons of amount of training, both didactic and clinical. There are certainly " cookbook " recipies for a specific symptom that can be done to great effectiveness by almost anyone, just a cataract surgery can be performed in Eastern Europe by techs with great results. However, patients come in with variations of symptoms which need a more specific diagnosis and followup diagnosis and adjustment to treatment. This sort of thing does not work well with cookbook recipies. While the German research showed that it didnt seem to make a difference, Austrialian research showed that length and quality of training made a big diference in both safety and effectiveness. Not being familiar with who the professional acupuncturists were in Germany, what their actual didactic of clinical training was, how they were allowed to adjust treatment to changes they saw in patients and other variables, I am unsure of exactly what their research means, especially given that German doctors have such a variable education in acupuncture from almost none to full Chinese 5 year docs. " We should all band together to do the research, rather than fight amongst ourselves. I don't really understand why its so important to some people that the way we do things is right and the way MD's do them is wrong. " This is not the AAOM's complaint, if you read it again. The complaint is that they are undertrained and practice infrequently, generally, and thus are much less effective and more prone to injure someone. The problem with that is that if " their doctor " gives them acupuncture and it doesn't work, how can a mere acupuncturist who is not a doctor or an MD do it? Thus drugs or surgery are the only options. This is not ethical and to me, and perhaps that is why AAOM is pointing this out. To be truthful, many acupuncturists use the neurophysiological model at times, and once again, it is not the model, it is the training. Dr. Gun's ideas are useful, sometimes. I wish he trained acupuncturist's. " My thought: According to Unschuld, most acupuncture has been practiced historically by those who were unfamiliar with any written theory, as they were illiterate. Historically very few acupuncturists were also herbalists. " Herbs were intrinsic to the culture. A medical person/acupuncturist only knew a couple hundred herbs well and may have stuck more to formulas than an herbalist who uses individualization of many more herbs, just as the acupuncturist does for points. But then again, I am talking about the people actually practicing and not the academics and theorists whose focus has always been to learn more and more about less and less. While I trust Unshuld in many ways, I do know that Jet Li used both acupuncture and herbs in his historic movies. har " No harm seems to have been done as a result. In modern times, many countries regulate acupuncture as a distinct medical practice, separate from herbal practice and sometimes as part of western medicine. This includes france, germany, japan. And in the PRC, TCM docs are trained as either acus OR herbalists, rarely both. " France, Germany, and Japan all have docs doing acupuncture and drugs(herbs). In Japan, it is my impression that acupuncture was made a trade school for the blind because of the blind masseurs and their propensity to deal with physical medicine seemed to fit. That they expanded beyond that is a tip of the hat to the human capacity to expand one's capability through insights. In the PRC, doctors of TCM are either " focused " of acupuncture or herbs. My wife was focused on herbs in her training because in her view herbs were the most difficult to enter and were the most respected focus of the choices, and it was more difficult to get into herb programs than acupuncture, at least in Nanjing. When I met her, she ran the acupuncture department of the hospital I was doing herb rotations in. " My thought: If acupuncture must be part of an integrated " oriental medicine " for " proper and responsible practice " , why point to the importance of standalone doctoral acupuncture programs and japanese training (which does not include herbs) as part of your argument? In Japan, despite our fascination with their " classical " meridian styles, much acupuncture is actually practiced as a form of medical acupuncture according to modern physiology. This is reported by shudo denmei in his meridian acupuncture text. In addition, I highly doubt that " the training for acupuncturists is at least as rigorous as the training for any other branch of medical practice [in Japan]. " I think it takes two or three years. Perhaps someone could comment more accurately on this. " Perhaps in Japan, since acupuncture is generally taught as a program for the blind, people might not quite trust the blind to be divving up herbs as much as they might in discerning the fine points of points. I'm sure blind commercial chefs are rare in Japan, too. In China, it is my observation that levels of education start at pharmacist, then tuina, acupuncture and then herbal medicine as the most integrative of the lot. I guess the point is about integrating OM in this country so that people have a general idea of what it is their field can do before specializing or doing general practice. Thus the DOM. I (me, not AAOM) find it interesting that generally the people who are saying that we don't need a doctorate in OM are the same ones pushing for a doctorate in acupuncture, but at the same time I want them to go for it because I feel that it will advance our profession to have people so intrigued in such a singular fashion. " While many people believe it is legal to prescribe anything that is sold in a healthfood store, actually it is technically illegal to treat any illness with herbs unless your scope of practice explicitly allows it. So, for example, the rx of western herbs and most other supplements is illegal in OR for acus. I won't debate this last statement. It was worked out with lawyers from NCCAOM when I was at OCOM. Talk to them. In some states, scope does not allow herbs at all. But in others with broad herbal scopes, there are acus who never studied herbology or took a board exam in herbs. Should those acus now be banned from herbal practice w/o more schooling. " Lastly, the goals of legislative work always recognize the realities of life. The OR law was passed probably as a deal to deal with ND's using Chinese herbs with little or no training " because they are doctors " . I wonder if the ND's have similar restrictions on Chinese herbs, or if they follow it. If someone slipped between the cracks and passed the herb exam without todays requirement for prereq's, then good for them. I have never seen any legislation that required docs to go back to school for a complete requirement of acupuncture training when NY moved from 200 to 300 hours, much less when they took the first NCCAOM exam or did a credential review for it. The goal of legislation is for the future, after all the old geezers have retired or taken the grand dirt nap. Malpractice will take up the slack. As far as herbal prescribing by those without certification at all, that is up to licensing boards to develop regulations for those requirements. Does one give up some slack for todays practitioners to provide for political expediency and then depend on them to use sound clinical judgement to limit themselves to their abilities? Perhaps a combination of board advice and educated discretion might be a good way to go, altho there are plenty of new lawyers who are chomping at the bit for tort income, eh? Sometimes knowing something is not enough. One has to prove one was taught and then prove one knows it. The question seems to be whether we let those who slipped betweenthe cracks stay in after the cracks are closed. I guess it depends on how dangerous it is to do so, for our profession and for the patient. Discretion is hard to teach, especially with egos involved, which is why lawyers tend not to believe in it. To me, it is the essence of a culture and a society to make room for discretion and individualization. Unfortunately, the legal aspect of our culture works hard every day to minimize it. I hope to have tea with Orwell after I kick. David Molony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 More and more, medicine will become evidence based. and the evidence just does not seem to be on our sides. >>>I have some good news on this. I just took part of a focus group with some of the most important people in the world in musculoskeletal medicine. It looks like the recommendation for study designs are going to be in our favor. Many in the room have stated that they believe that studies involving intervention should not be done against placebo. Instead, the treatment will be done in a somewhat of a black box fashion and then outcomes will be assessed elsewhere by physicians unrelated to the study and which may not even know which study they are evaluating. That means that we can compare our outcomes to standard known outcome or to other studies on the same condition. Also i have a long conversation with Dr Sears and he believes that in about 15 years fish oil will be priced as gold. There will be a very short supply of fish oils. Also he claims that in order to know if a low contamination fish oil is high quality. One should put it in the freezer and see if it freezes. If it does it contains some unhealthy fatty acids Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 In Japan, despite our fascination with their " classical " meridian styles, much acupuncture is actually practiced as a form of medical acupuncture according to modern physiology. >>>>Not just much but the overwhelming majority Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 I do not dispute that manipulation is part of tui na, but if we are to do it, then should we not be trained in it to a reasonable number of hours. >>>I agree but at ACTCM manipulation was part of their program, although very crude. I also tend to agree with you regarding trying to stop others, i rather see us expending our scope of medicine and education Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 (I knew two cases of pneumothorax and one of a punctured kidney!). By >>>>Zev this is unlikely to do with acupuncture training but aggressive attitude. All Chiros have a much better training in anatomy than any US school of TCM.Risks of procedures are not to be seen as poor training or technique. Most acup do not do deep needling because of their lack of education. Therefore they would naturally have less complications. However, it is my belief that many conditions do much better when deep techniques are used. Regardless of your training shit will then happen. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 Alon, (to the tune of " Turn Turn Turn " ) To everything (turn turn turn) There is a season (turn turn turn) And a time to everything under heaven. A time to needle superficial, A time to be deep, A time to be strong, A time to be weak, A time to use cold, A time to use heat, A time to cup, A time to bleed. On Apr 24, 2004, at 11:51 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: >>>>> Most acup do not do deep needling because of their lack of >>>>> education. Therefore they would naturally have less complications. >>>>> However, it is my belief that many conditions do much better when >>>>> deep techniques are used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 to the tune of " Turn Turn Turn " ) To everything (turn turn turn) There is a season (turn turn turn) And a time to everything under heaven. >>>>No argument here alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 Nice comments on this one, Todd. Many doctors would be better trained to practice medical acupuncture than we are. We have a unique way to mix acupuncture into our internal medicine system, that will not be surpassed in its realm. If new techniques can be done with needles, competent people should explore them. There is no reason to keep huang lian away from MDs either. The standard of knowledge possessed by many of our collegues is a subject of far greater concern that the use of little needles by Western doctors. , wrote: > This is from Gene Bruno, president, AAOM, on the AT website at > http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/online/bottomline.html > > It was written in response to an article last month arguing the rights > of chiros to practice acupuncture (but not oriental medicine). My > thoughts are interspersed. > > Bruno writes, " In China, attempts to reduce the practice of acupuncture > to a therapeutic technique have resulted in utter failures. > Acupuncture, practiced without the benefit of the theoretical > principles which underlie it, and the logic which informs its treatment > plans, is at best minimal and perhaps detrimental in terms of patient > use. Some argue that it creates a clear case of endangerment. " > > My thought: This does not seem to be accurate in light of the ongoing > german research, which shows excellent results for medical acupuncture > and sham acupuncture, both done without any traditional theory or dx. > In fact, most chinese research on acupuncture has been allopathic, not > involving pattern dx. Not only has the research shown this approach > not to be detrimental, but actually quite effective. The word > endangerment seems way over the top here. I understand the need to > stake our claim here, but making such statements does not seem helpful. > It does raise a good question, though. How are we to distinguish > ourselves as the deserving guardians of Oriental Medicine? I have said > before that I think this battle is a losing one. Medical acupuncture > appears to be at least as safe and effective as TCM. If we claim > otherwise, we will just draw even more scrutiny upon our own lack of > supporting research. We can't win the battle of who gets to insert > needles and upon what basis. We need to focus upon protecting our > right to practice at all. If we prove our methods effective, it > doesn't matter if other methods are equally effective. We get to keep > our piece of the pie. But if we continue to devote precious time and > resources to trying to prove other folks are dangerous and ineffective > (when the evidence overwhelmingly suggests otherwise), we will lose our > place at the table. > > More and more, medicine will become evidence based. and the evidence > just does not seem to be on our sides. We should all band together to > do the research, rather than fight amongst ourselves. I don't really > understand why its so important to some people that the way we do > things is right and the way MD's do them is wrong. Part of > understanding chinese medicine is learning to accept irreconcilable > contradictions between schools of thought or famous physicians. Is it > possible to entertain the idea that western medicine is just another > school of thought. Perhaps we could call it the anatomical school. > Why is it such a stretch to accept that if acupuncture can be applied > successfully according to the five phases or the mirroring of Dr. Tan > or the zang-fu method of TCM or the auricular of nogier or the hand > needling of korea, that it could also work when applied according to a > neurophysiological model. I think we need to let go of this its our > way or the highway mentality when we cannot even agree on what is our > way. If we are willing to accept the diversity within the field, we > must accept that from outside as well. To be honest, things like NAET > and the use of tuning forks to balance chakras as well as countless > dubious electronic technologies concern me far more than the practicing > based upon a neurophysiological model. Are we prepared to purge the > heretics from within our ranks as well. > > Bruno goes on, " Second, the fully expanded practice of Oriental > medicine adds to the study and practice of acupuncture the use of the > vast field of traditional Chinese herbal medicine. The use of herbal > medicine for the treatment of disease is based upon the same underlying > theoretical framework as the practice of all aspects of Oriental > medicine; therefore, the study of acupuncture and Chinese herbal > medicine combine synergistically to form the unitary practice of > Oriental medicine. This term is now widely accepted throughout the > world, and the degree in Oriental medicine is now the accepted degree > in the United States, Korea, Taiwan and numerous other venues. But the > separation of any of these therapeutic interventions from the body of > knowledge that underlies them is anathema to the proper and responsible > practice of this medicine, or indeed, any medicine. " > > My thought: According to Unschuld, most acupuncture has been practiced > historically by those who were unfamiliar with any written theory, as > they were illiterate. Historically very few acupuncturists were also > herbalists. No harm seems to have been done as a result. In modern > times, many countries regulate acupuncture as a distinct medical > practice, separate from herbal practice and sometimes as part of > western medicine. This includes france, germany, japan. And in the > PRC, TCM docs are trained as either acus OR herbalists, rarely both. > Again, no harm seems to come of this. The case of absolute necessity > for not separating acupuncture from OM remains weak, IMO. It is thus > ironic that Mr. Bruno elsewhere in the article says, " The Council of > Colleges of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine is already working > diligently on a degree at the doctoral level to continue the study of > acupuncture as a solitary practice well beyond even 3,000 hours of > study. In Japan, the practice of acupuncture is the practice of > Oriental medicine, and the training for acupuncturists is at least as > rigorous as the training for any other branch of medical practice. " > > My thought: If acupuncture must be part of an integrated " oriental > medicine " for " proper and responsible practice " , why point to the > importance of standalone doctoral acupuncture programs and japanese > training (which does not include herbs) as part of your argument? In > Japan, despite our fascination with their " classical " meridian styles, > much acupuncture is actually practiced as a form of medical acupuncture > according to modern physiology. This is reported by shudo denmei in > his meridian acupuncture text. In addition, I highly doubt that " the > training for acupuncturists is at least as rigorous as the training for > any other branch of medical practice [in Japan]. " I think it takes two > or three years. Perhaps someone could comment more accurately on this. > > Bruno follows with, " Third, the promotion of adopting of a sterile > group of interventions and practices by other professions is not > acceptable to most medical fields. Why, then, should it be acceptable > to Oriental medicine? For a comparative example, we could extract > adjustment techniques from the study of chiropractic. It is foolish to > assume that 100 or 150 hours is not sufficient for any reasonably > skilled medical professional in any other field to learn to perform > chiropractic adjustment by rote. Would the field of chiropractic then > suggest that licensed acupuncturists throughout the country study > adjustment technique for 100 hours, then practice as much of that > medicine as they felt they could comfortably deliver? " > > My thought: In fact, many acus in CA do perform spinal manipulation, > claiming it is allowed under our oriental massage provision. I believe > Alon will confirm this. However, there is minimal to no training and > supervised clinical practice of spinal manipulation. I do not dispute > that manipulation is part of tui na, but if we are to do it, then > should we not be trained in it to a reasonable number of hours. The > same goes for the ordering of lab tests, x-rays, etc. There is little > academic or clinical training in these areas. Same for the > recommendation of western herbs and other supplements to " promote, > maintain and restore " health, legal under CA law. Yet also no training > in these areas. While many people believe it is legal to prescribe > anything that is sold in a healthfood store, actually it is technically > illegal to treat any illness with herbs unless your scope of practice > explicitly allows it. So, for example, the rx of western herbs and > most other supplements is illegal in OR for acus. I won't debate this > last statement. It was worked out with lawyers from NCCAOM when I was > at OCOM. Talk to them. In some states, scope does not allow herbs at > all. But in others with broad herbal scopes, there are acus who never > studied herbology or took a board exam in herbs. Should those acus now > be banned from herbal practice w/o more schooling. And yet we seem to > do all these things safely, just as it appears medical acupuncture is > performed safely across the world. Do we really want to open this can > of worms. We might be the ones who end up worm food. > > > Chinese Herbs > > > FAX: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2004 Report Share Posted April 26, 2004 Z'ev, This is hysterical. Thank you for some levity in this discussion. I am imagining you crooning, and I can't help but giggle. Andrea Beth <zrosenbe wrote: Alon, (to the tune of " Turn Turn Turn " ) To everything (turn turn turn) There is a season (turn turn turn) And a time to everything under heaven. A time to needle superficial, A time to be deep, A time to be strong, A time to be weak, A time to use cold, A time to use heat, A time to cup, A time to bleed. On Apr 24, 2004, at 11:51 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: >>>>> Most acup do not do deep needling because of their lack of >>>>> education. Therefore they would naturally have less complications. >>>>> However, it is my belief that many conditions do much better when >>>>> deep techniques are used. Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2004 Report Share Posted April 26, 2004 You want some more songs? Stay tuned Z'ev On Apr 26, 2004, at 4:52 PM, wrote: > Z'ev, > > This is hysterical. Thank you for some levity in this discussion. I > am imagining you crooning, and I can't help but giggle. > > Andrea Beth > > <zrosenbe wrote: > Alon, > > (to the tune of " Turn Turn Turn " ) > > To everything (turn turn turn) > There is a season (turn turn turn) > And a time to everything under heaven. > > A time to needle superficial, > A time to be deep, > A time to be strong, > A time to be weak, > A time to use cold, > A time to use heat, > A time to cup, > A time to bleed. > > > On Apr 24, 2004, at 11:51 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > >>>>>> Most acup do not do deep needling because of their lack of >>>>>> education. Therefore they would naturally have less complications. >>>>>> However, it is my belief that many conditions do much better when >>>>>> deep techniques are used. > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, > including board approved continuing education classes, an annual > conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 Z'ev, My ears are primed! Andrea Beth <zrosenbe wrote: You want some more songs? Stay tuned Z'ev On Apr 26, 2004, at 4:52 PM, wrote: > Z'ev, > > This is hysterical. Thank you for some levity in this discussion. I > am imagining you crooning, and I can't help but giggle. > > Andrea Beth > > <zrosenbe wrote: > Alon, > > (to the tune of " Turn Turn Turn " ) > > To everything (turn turn turn) > There is a season (turn turn turn) > And a time to everything under heaven. > > A time to needle superficial, > A time to be deep, > A time to be strong, > A time to be weak, > A time to use cold, > A time to use heat, > A time to cup, > A time to bleed. > > > On Apr 24, 2004, at 11:51 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > >>>>>> Most acup do not do deep needling because of their lack of >>>>>> education. Therefore they would naturally have less complications. >>>>>> However, it is my belief that many conditions do much better when >>>>>> deep techniques are used. > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, > including board approved continuing education classes, an annual > conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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