Guest guest Posted April 30, 2004 Report Share Posted April 30, 2004 Hi Roger, Great post on QC and granules. IMO, however, granules are the way to go - large batch size, more stable dose-to-dose composition, better QC, etc. Also, EU and FDA inspectors are more used to looking at pills/powders than at batches of fresh or single ground herbs. The the RMHI Herbal Tutor CD is a great resource for students, but also for practitioners. For its next upgrade, you might consider: (a) updating and expanding the sections on contraindications and herb-herb interactions, and (b) including as much herb-drug interaction as your team can find. IMO, professional awareness of (and public admission of) these interactions will be vvery important in the " medical war " . Best regards, Phil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roger wrote: I agree with some of your conclusions below. Voluntary industry self-policing is always preferable to government imposed policing, because the latter is generally more susceptible to corruption and influence by the largest mega-corporations. As a glaring example of this, the FDA has always been a tool of the pharmaceutical cartels. Their pretended concern and tears over ephedra is nothing but hypocrisy, when there are 106,000 deaths/year from " non-error, adverse effects of medications " - read: correctly prescribed drugs. Check it out; see: [h1] Starfield, Barbara; " Is US Health Really the Best in the World? " ; Journal American Medical Association 2000 Jul 26, 284(4):483-5. Also at: http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v284n4/ffull/jco00061.html [h2] Castleman, Michael; " The Other Drug War " ; Mother Jones Magazine, 1998 Nov/Dec at http://www.motherjones.com/mother_jones/ND98/castleman.html . I'm hesitant to endorse standardized granules. I've always used whole dried herbs in preference over pills, powders, or granules, due to the fact that with whole herbs I have some control over the quality: visual appearance, smell, texture all give clues as to the species identity and cleanliness of the product. In powders and granules, one is much more at the mercy of the company's QC. I'm sure there are good companies, but there are have been major documented problems with contamination of vitamins with everything from solvents to heavy metals and molds. I do not use or recommend vitamin supplements for that reason, but instead recommend whole foods, organically grown if possible. High school chemistry texts indoctrinate students into believing that industrial chemistry is a neat and tidy process where the reactants are predictable. In reality, the process is considerably messier, even a simple extraction process will usually leave a certain small % of solvent behind; extraction of oil-soluble vitamins often involves toxic solvents. Springwind Herbs is one company I believe is taking the best route - checking for species identity and having standardized chemical assays done on their batches of whole herb shipments to test for heavy metals, pesticides, and other known types of contamination for specific herbs. As China industrializes, increasing caution must be used regarding Chinese herbal products. The advantage of Springwind's method is that it uses chemical assays to verify indentity chemical constitutents, but it also allows the practitioner to double-check using smell, taste, and visual identification. We do not need to be forced into a system in which we are totally dependent upon corporations (which have been knowm to lie) to tell us what is in a batch of greenish-brown powder. I've noticed that many of my western herbal colleagues are far more sophisticated in their botanical and phytochemical knowledge, and take species identification more seriously than most TCM herbalists, who tend to trust what the label says. With companies other than Springwind, species substitution and mislabeling has been a persistent problem, and this problem was revealed during the AA scandal. (I would argue that TCM herbal training programs should consider including botany and phytochemistry courses, that is, after they have satisfied their core TCM herbology course requirements, which are also generally deficient.) This current ephedra scandal, and the AA scandal a few years ago, are all part of a great chess game, with Macchiavellian rules. It's important that the players, including ourselves, know what these hidden rules are, or we will continually be surprised when we lose. The big players always play for the long-term. Last year I delivered a paper at a UC Berkeley conference on this topic. You can read all the gory details at: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2003-2.html Orwellian schemes for maximizing health-care industry profits - How these endanger the practice of herbal medicine Specifically, you might be interested in the section on herbal standardization, its advantages and pitfalls, and how this issue is being used by Codex Alimentarius to impose these standards worldwide: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2003-2.html#t-bioc Also, there are some important points to keep in mind regarding principles of Anglo-American law that affect corporations and flesh- and-blood people differently. If you are operating under a grant of licensure, you are operating in a quasi-corporate capacity. If you are an herbalist operating as a matter of common-law right, you are not. See: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/a/f.ahr3.rights.html The right to practice herbology, legal history and basis http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2003-4.html The Dumbing Down of American Education: Implications for Herbal Education (See especially: A summary of Thom Hartmann's findings on corporate abuse of power) The preceding issues are at the heart of the rights of indigenous people worldwide to continue traditional herbal practices without interference. Note that most of the abuses related to ephedra involve deceptive marketing practices by corporations. Individuals are the downline victims of this. The danger of not appreciating this distinction is that we will allow the government to crack down on individuals' rights, when there is a simple corporate-based solution: Require all corporations who manufacture products with ephedra to include a simple warning in large print on all of their ephedra products: " Warning: this product contains ephedra, which may cause or aggravate high blood pressure, heart palpitations, nervousness, resting perspiration, etc.... Not recommended for weight loss. " Another aspect ... is comparing the regulatory systems in Japan and Taiwan - these are much more homogeneous cultures than that of the U.S., and in which the traditional health professions are better established. In the U.S., the general public does not understand much about TCM, plus, via the FDA & pharmaceutical cartels have much more power than in almost any other country. This is one reason drugs are so much more expensive here. The vast majority of all pharmaceutical profits are made in the U.S. So, according to Macciavellian rules, you can expect pharmaceutical interests to sabotage any viable alternative, which is a major argument for keeping the FDA out of the herbal business and begin to self-regulate as much as possible. .... deep down, the real agenda of the FDA is not to save lives, but .... to restrict the availability of herbal health care. So let's start playing the game by the real rules, instead of the rules by which most people are pretending to play. Roger >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2004 Report Share Posted April 30, 2004 Hi Alon, Re: Roger's reference to Springwind Herbs, Alon wrote: > Sheng Cheng/Qualiherbs also does this on every batch of raw herbs > ... They do all the checks twice, in Mainland and again ... in > Taiwan. They not only check for contamination, but also for levels > of active ingredients and finger printing Alon I cannot find a WWW Page for Springwind Herbs or Sheng Cheng/Shengcheng herbs. Can anyone explain why Qualiherb [ http://eng.herb.com.tw/main/index.sphp?prod_func=search ] have such abysmally little professional data on their pages? It has been that way for a long time now. Contrast this with the data available from HerbMed, at: http://www.herbmed.org/herblist.asp? or HerbAsin, at: http://www.herbasin.com/herbs.htm or SunTen, at: http://www.sunten.com.tw/english/htm/product_category.php?TYPE =SINGLE_HERBS [no data yet except names] and http://www.sunten.com.tw/english/htm/product_category.php?TYPE =COMBINATION FORMULAS [good summary data on each formula] Can the CHM/TCM organisations persuade the large herb- and formula- suppliers to put full professional data on all their raw ingredients (single herbs) and formulas on WWW? Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2004 Report Share Posted April 30, 2004 Hi Phil, You must have been reading my mind - I've been working on this idea for several months. However, before one begins compiling purported cases of herb-drug interactions, a little definition work is in order. On major problem I see is that the media and the medical community bandy this term about without ever defining it. In short, the majority of what are called " herb-drug interactions " are not really true interactions, but simply additive effects that sum to create an overdose of a particular action. For example, using a blood-thinning drug such as heparin together with several blood-thinning herbs. These types of " interactions " can be simply avoided by one who understands the properties of TCM herbs and the properties of the drug (from a TCM perspective) and adds the action vectors for each of the substances. On the other hand, use of coumadin as a blood thinner has been observed to be one of the most susceptible drugs to not only herb interactions, but to daily diet, which is why clotting time and platelet counts are checked so frequently in people taking this drug. From my understanding, herbs that affect liver metabolism, such as Liver Qi-regulating herbs, may affect the breakdown and excretion rate of circulating coumadin, thus affecting the clotting time. What we will be doing in the next edition of the CD-ROM is to list what I call " herbal action vectors " for all of the most commonly used herbs. As the following article explains, this is a necessary first step in quantifying the effects so that one can determine whether two substances truly " interact " or whether the combined effect is merely additive and non-interactive: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2004-3.html Until this is done, the term herb-drug interaction will continue to be abused. We need to demand that people who use this word define what they mean by it. I've tried to do that in the article above. Roger >Hi Roger, > >Great post on QC and granules. > >IMO, however, granules are the way to go - large batch size, more >stable dose-to-dose composition, better QC, etc. Also, EU and >FDA inspectors are more used to looking at pills/powders than at >batches of fresh or single ground herbs. > >The the RMHI Herbal Tutor CD is a great resource for students, but >also for practitioners. For its next upgrade, you might consider: > >(a) updating and expanding the sections on contraindications and >herb-herb interactions, >and >(b) including as much herb-drug interaction as your team can find. > >IMO, professional awareness of (and public admission of) these >interactions will be vvery important in the " medical war " . > >Best regards, >Phil > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Roger wrote: > > I agree with some of your conclusions below. Voluntary >industry self-policing is always preferable to government imposed >policing, because the latter is generally more susceptible to >corruption and influence by the largest mega-corporations. As a >glaring example of this, the FDA has always been a tool of the >pharmaceutical cartels. Their pretended concern and tears over >ephedra is nothing but hypocrisy, when there are 106,000 >deaths/year from " non-error, adverse effects of medications " - read: >correctly prescribed drugs. > >Check it out; see: [h1] Starfield, Barbara; " Is US Health Really the >Best in the World? " ; Journal American Medical Association 2000 >Jul 26, 284(4):483-5. Also at: >http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v284n4/ffull/jco00061.html > >[h2] Castleman, Michael; " The Other Drug War " ; Mother Jones >Magazine, 1998 Nov/Dec at >http://www.motherjones.com/mother_jones/ND98/castleman.html . > >I'm hesitant to endorse standardized granules. I've always used >whole dried herbs in preference over pills, powders, or granules, >due to the fact that with whole herbs I have some control over the >quality: visual appearance, smell, texture all give clues as to the >species identity and cleanliness of the product. In powders and >granules, one is much more at the mercy of the company's QC. > >I'm sure there are good companies, but there are have been major >documented problems with contamination of vitamins with >everything from solvents to heavy metals and molds. I do not use or >recommend vitamin supplements for that reason, but instead >recommend whole foods, organically grown if possible. > >High school chemistry texts indoctrinate students into believing >that industrial chemistry is a neat and tidy process where the >reactants are predictable. In reality, the process is considerably >messier, even a simple extraction process will usually leave a >certain small % of solvent behind; extraction of oil-soluble vitamins >often involves toxic solvents. > >Springwind Herbs is one company I believe is taking the best route - > checking for species identity and having standardized chemical >assays done on their batches of whole herb shipments to test for >heavy metals, pesticides, and other known types of contamination >for specific herbs. > >As China industrializes, increasing caution must be used regarding >Chinese herbal products. The advantage of Springwind's method is >that it uses chemical assays to verify indentity chemical >constitutents, but it also allows the practitioner to double-check >using smell, taste, and visual identification. > >We do not need to be forced into a system in which we are totally >dependent upon corporations (which have been knowm to lie) to tell >us what is in a batch of greenish-brown powder. I've noticed that >many of my western herbal colleagues are far more sophisticated >in their botanical and phytochemical knowledge, and take species >identification more seriously than most TCM herbalists, who tend >to trust what the label says. > >With companies other than Springwind, species substitution and >mislabeling has been a persistent problem, and this problem was >revealed during the AA scandal. (I would argue that TCM herbal >training programs should consider including botany and >phytochemistry courses, that is, after they have satisfied their core >TCM herbology course requirements, which are also generally >deficient.) > >This current ephedra scandal, and the AA scandal a few years ago, >are all part of a great chess game, with Macchiavellian rules. It's >important that the players, including ourselves, know what these >hidden rules are, or we will continually be surprised when we lose. >The big players always play for the long-term. Last year I delivered >a paper at a UC Berkeley conference on this topic. You can read >all the gory details at: > >http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2003-2.html Orwellian schemes >for maximizing health-care industry profits - How these endanger >the practice of herbal medicine > >Specifically, you might be interested in the section on herbal >standardization, its advantages and pitfalls, and how this issue is >being used by Codex Alimentarius to impose these standards >worldwide: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2003-2.html#t-bioc > >Also, there are some important points to keep in mind regarding >principles of Anglo-American law that affect corporations and flesh- >and-blood people differently. If you are operating under a grant of >licensure, you are operating in a quasi-corporate capacity. If you >are an herbalist operating as a matter of common-law right, you are >not. See: > >http://www.rmhiherbal.org/a/f.ahr3.rights.html The right to practice >herbology, legal history and basis > >http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2003-4.html The Dumbing Down of >American Education: Implications for Herbal Education (See >especially: A summary of Thom Hartmann's findings on corporate >abuse of power) > >The preceding issues are at the heart of the rights of indigenous >people worldwide to continue traditional herbal practices without >interference. > >Note that most of the abuses related to ephedra involve deceptive >marketing practices by corporations. Individuals are the downline >victims of this. The danger of not appreciating this distinction is >that we will allow the government to crack down on individuals' >rights, when there is a simple corporate-based solution: Require all >corporations who manufacture products with ephedra to include a >simple warning in large print on all of their ephedra products: > " Warning: this product contains ephedra, which may cause or >aggravate high blood pressure, heart palpitations, nervousness, >resting perspiration, etc.... Not recommended for weight loss. " > >Another aspect ... is comparing the regulatory systems in Japan >and Taiwan - these are much more homogeneous cultures than >that of the U.S., and in which the traditional health professions are >better established. In the U.S., the general public does not >understand much about TCM, plus, via the FDA & pharmaceutical >cartels have much more power than in almost any other country. >This is one reason drugs are so much more expensive here. The >vast majority of all pharmaceutical profits are made in the U.S. So, >according to Macciavellian rules, you can expect pharmaceutical >interests to sabotage any viable alternative, which is a major >argument for keeping the FDA out of the herbal business and begin >to self-regulate as much as possible. > >... deep down, the real agenda of the FDA is not to save lives, but >... to restrict the availability of herbal health care. So let's start >playing the game by the real rules, instead of the rules by which >most people are pretending to play. Roger > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Best regards, > >Email: < > >WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland >Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > >HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland >Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] >WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2004 Report Share Posted May 1, 2004 I cannot find a WWW Page for Springwind Herbs or Sheng Cheng/Shengcheng herbs. i do not now what their web page is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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