New Age / Magical Thinking vs. Chinese Herbology

[Guest guest]

There has been much talk lately about magical thinkers and the New Age

influence on the teaching of and practice of in the

USA. I tend to agree with the sentiments of and Bob Flaws

on this point.

 

I have seen many examples of the above in relation to acupuncture, but

I am trouble seeing the affect on the practice of Chinese Herbology.

I realize a poor eduction would have an effect on Chinese Herbology,

but that it not what I am wondering about.

 

I do not have much experience yet and have not seem much compared to and Bob and many others on this list.

 

Could someone post some concrete examples of common practices in

Chinese Herbology that are linked directly to magical thinking and /

or New Agism? These examples would shed light on this situation for

me and also better direct this thread, focussing on herbs, as people

on the list have been quite touchy in regards to their personal

approaches to acupuncture.

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

I just wrote a post the other day, on my observation that the Nei

Jing Su Wen is a composition of both magical and causal thinking. I

forgot to give a name though.

I've definined magical thinking as correspondence oriented

thought, following A.C. Graham. Most everyday speech is filled with

magical thinking. I don't think new ageism should at all represent

the style of thinking in a modern day secular medical tradition, but

if we want to be honest- magical thinking is everywhere in chinese

medicine.

Large shifts in herbal logic occured when Jin/Yuan neo-confucians

adopted correspondence(magical) theory from the Nei Jing/ Su wen and

applied it too herbal practice.

" Scientific " thinking is not completely distinct from correlative

theory, either. Only in mathematics and pure logic is there absolute

distinctions between literal and metaphorical meaning.

matt

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...>

wrote:

> There has been much talk lately about magical thinkers and the New

Age

> influence on the teaching of and practice of in the

> USA. I tend to agree with the sentiments of and Bob

Flaws

> on this point.

>

> I have seen many examples of the above in relation to acupuncture,

but

> I am trouble seeing the affect on the practice of Chinese

Herbology.

> I realize a poor eduction would have an effect on Chinese Herbology,

> but that it not what I am wondering about.

>

> I do not have much experience yet and have not seem much compared to

and Bob and many others on this list.

>

> Could someone post some concrete examples of common practices in

> Chinese Herbology that are linked directly to magical thinking and /

> or New Agism? These examples would shed light on this situation for

> me and also better direct this thread, focussing on herbs, as people

> on the list have been quite touchy in regards to their personal

> approaches to acupuncture.

>

> Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

Brian,

 

I'll give you several examples from my own experiences:

 

New-Age thinkers are quick to shift into a search for magical explanations as

soon as they encounter any level of complexity in the client's patterns. For

example, in my own case years ago, I had a complex set of patterns that most TCM

people gave up on, and when their strategies did not work, I was accused of not

having a positive attitude, being karmically attached to my problem, etc.

Eventually, I learned that much of my problems were directly related to heavy

metal toxicity, which I had to spend considerable time researching and figuring

out; the results were very evident, as I was able to make significant progress.

Perhaps my exposure was due to karma, I don't know, and I don't necessarily

dismiss this idea, but the point is that knowing that helped not a whit in

solving it. These days, as students' academic and thinking abilities are even

less, they are even quicker to shift into magical thinking mode, as soon as

their television-addled brains reach a block.

 

Another area that this manifests is in dealing with public health issues. New

Agers often manifest an infuriating ability to be blind to the complexities and

difficulties of public health problems. As an example, they tend to mentally

" space out " on contentious issues such as the pros and cons of vaccinations -

instead of methodically picking the issues and evidence apart, they assume that

the issue is beyond their control, and shift into " positive thinking " mode -

avoid controversy and hope that with enough positive thoughts and white light,

that the problem will eventually go away.

 

An especially dangerous tendency I have seen many times is that New-Ager

practitioners who may be using techniques that are toxic or dangerous, tend to

believe that they can neutralize any negative effects by thinking positive

thoughts. So instead of choosing less toxic alternatives, or warning the client

to watch for side effects, they simply bless it with white light and cross their

fingers. When confronted with the irresponsibility of this, based on hard

evidence of the risks, they often become indignant and will accuse their critic

of being possessed by " negative energies " . The most obnoxious of this type of

person will respond, " but my guru told me it was OK " . Nothing I can say will

penetrate, as I am obviously not of the status of their guru. I saw plenty of

this type of crap while in TCM training 20 years ago in California. California

was ahead of the rest of the country. In western Montana we are finally being

hit by the New Age, 30 years later than in California, and the same naive, silly

scams are being perpetrated here.

 

I could go on, but I hope this gives you some idea.

 

---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

 

 

> " bcataiji " <bcaom

>New Age / Magical Thinking vs. Chinese Herbology

>

>There has been much talk lately about magical thinkers and the New Age

>influence on the teaching of and practice of in the

>USA. I tend to agree with the sentiments of and Bob Flaws

>on this point.

>

>I have seen many examples of the above in relation to acupuncture, but

>I am trouble seeing the affect on the practice of Chinese Herbology.

>I realize a poor eduction would have an effect on Chinese Herbology,

>but that it not what I am wondering about.

>

>I do not have much experience yet and have not seem much compared to

>Todd and Bob and many others on this list.

>

>Could someone post some concrete examples of common practices in

>Chinese Herbology that are linked directly to magical thinking and /

>or New Agism? These examples would shed light on this situation for

>me and also better direct this thread, focussing on herbs, as people

>on the list have been quite touchy in regards to their personal

>approaches to acupuncture.

>

>Brian C. Allen

>

 

---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

[Guest guest]

I agree that your personal experience of less than qualified therapists

was not helpful. I also agree that to use toxic therapies can be dangerous.

 

I also agree that some people put a lot of faith in the " White Light "

and praying for things to work out, and it can be pretty scary, and sometimes

down right negligent to do so.

 

However, in one of your last sentences, you seem to sum up by saying that

all of the " New age " thinking is silly. Is this what you intended?

 

 

Thanks,

 

Chris

 

PS: I am reminded of a quote from someone who walked a long tome ago.

In reference to the many " miracles " he performed, he said, " All these

things and more you to can do. "

 

There may be nothing new about the " New Age " .

 

I do agree however, that many people, who are not quite ready to lift the

toxic effects of therapy with their intent are at best hoping for a miracle

and may be doing harm instead.

 

I have seen many people do muscle testing to come up with answers that

just do not fit with what I would call reality. When questioned, they sometimes

get offended that I would question the " Higher Self " .

 

Sometimes it is quite difficult to watch people get side tracked because

of " Their higher self " . I really wish there was a manual to life. ;-))

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 5/30/2004 11:58:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

rw2 writes:

California was ahead of the rest of the country. In western Montana we are

finally being hit by the New Age, 30 years later than in California, and the

same naive, silly scams are being perpetrated here.

 

I could go on, but I hope this gives you some idea.

 

---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

An especially dangerous tendency I have seen many times is that New-Ager

practitioners who may be using techniques that are toxic or dangerous, tend to

believe that they can neutralize any negative effects by thinking positive

thoughts

>>>>Is using muscle testing to diagnose metal toxicity more grounded

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

I remember in my High School days that I was very enthralled by science. I

took all the classes that I could get. On one particular day the discussion

was on Greek Medicine. The instructor was ridiculing that tradition because

of its primitive beliefs which were not " scientific " . I remember the fun

that we had upon being told that the Greeks entertained the notion that

disease was caused by internal imbalances of the humors and that the

environment could cause disease. Everyone knew that disease was caused by

germs and viruses. I remember thinking how silly my Grandmother was to

recommend that we cover ourselves lest we chill and catch a cold. This was

a long time ago. was not yet popular. But I can imagine

the same situation with Chinese substituted for Greek.

 

 

 

Barry

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

>

> Could someone post some concrete examples of common practices in

> Chinese Herbology that are linked directly to magical thinking and /

> or New Agism? These examples would shed light on this situation for

> me and also better direct this thread, focussing on herbs, as people

> on the list have been quite touchy in regards to their personal

> approaches to acupuncture.

>

> Brian C. Allen

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>>The instructor was ridiculing that tradition because

> of its primitive beliefs which were not " scientific " . I remember the fun

> that we had upon being told that the Greeks entertained the notion that

> disease was caused by internal imbalances of the humors and that the

> environment could cause disease. Everyone knew that disease was caused by

> germs and viruses. I remember thinking how silly my Grandmother was to

> recommend that we cover ourselves lest we chill and catch a cold.

 

I hear similar comments from medical people even nowadays. Colds are still

caused by germs...and germs alone, apparently. As a matter of fact i heard

this from a nurse in an ER when i joked about how cold it was in the ER and

how one could get sick just from that. If i report that male nurse's comment

to other medical professionals, they invariably immediately agree with his

statement.

 

And most people, no matter how many years they might have lived to be able

to observe weather's body consequences, have not the slightest idea that

their achy muscles may be connected to their exposure to cold(either weather

or a/c) a day or 2 prior to onset, just as a fall or especially heavy

workout might give sore muscles a day or 2 later.

 

I think the docs still hark back to some study allegedly done some years

back which purported to show that an isolated community of individuals in an

outpost at the arctic(or was it antarctica? can't remember) had no incidence

of colds thru the winter until the entry of outsiders who allegedly brought

the virus with them.

 

Not a very sophisticated awareness of the physiology of homeostasis, and

it's effect on the immune system.

 

A propos of muscle soreness, i recall reading an abstract on Raynaud's

Syndrome from Melvyn Werbach's Nutritional Influences on Illnesses regarding

magnesium:

" Serum levels may be reduced by exposure to cold, causing vasospasm.

" After exposure to cold, mean serum magnesium levels in a gp. of 80 women

with primary Raynaud's phenomenon was significantly lower than in 24 age-

and sex-matched controls(p<0.05).....The serum magnesium level was lower in

82% of the pt. gp. after cold exposure compared to 45% of the

controls(p<0.001). No differences were found in other electrolytes (J.

Intern Med 228:235-9, 1990) "

 

Sorry the BOLDING function doesn't work in this Fw. formatting,

but -----What stood out to me was that 45% of the 'NORMALS' had this

reduction in Mg levels. Knowing deficiency of Mg is common in Western

population(75% is the figure often cited) and that the Ca/Mg balance is

intimately involved in muscle contraction, it seems an interesting

correlation to at least particially explain this effect of cold weather on

many, if not most, individuals. (Oh, sorry if i am inappropriately

extrapolating to males, since this study was on women; of course, the

'scientific establishment' seems to have no problem extrapolating the other

way, as many studies are done on men only :-)

 

plink, 2 cents in the pot.

 

Ann