rational/empirical humanism & scientism-and the irrationally valid

[Guest guest]

 

 

I assume that this comment found at the end of my post was your gloss on

it. If so, thank you! Concerning this issue we are indeed on the same

page, though we both acknowledge other areas of disagreement.

 

 

" I encourage research into validating ancient wisdom. "

 

At first glance, good, and research should be encouraged, HOWEVER, how

would you view, for example, an effective, yet seemingly irrational

therapy which is from an ancient source, and potentially can't be proven?

Is that magic? shamanism? irrational?

 

I'll give you two examples from ancient Jewish tradition. There is a

tradition that before the revelation on Mount Sinai, the recently freed

Jewish nation came to a place of bitter waters called Mara. Tradition

has it (as quoted by Rabenu Bachaya Ibn Pekuda) that Moses was taught and

tested there the wisdom of all plants, both their medicinal and their

segula (spiritually effective and contrary to logic, hidden) properties.

Traditional Judaism, therefore, validates that properties exist in

substances which will forever fail the scrutiny of scientific method, no

matter how much we advance, yet are valid. Is this magic or

non-scientific? Rather, I would contend that it is meta-scientific, but

based upon a premise and assumption that I believe you are not prepared

to make. I respect our difference of opinion but am curious as to how

you can rationalize that which is clearly not hocus-pocus, but also is

clearly not scientifically provable? (I would assume that you would say,

that eventually its scientific veracity will be proven).

 

BTW, before I give you the second example, I am reminded of the example

my professor, Dr. Zhang, gave us concerning Bai Hu Tang. How would you

explain rationally, how none of its four ingredients, shi gao, zhi mu,

zhi gan cao and jing mi, contain any anti-biotic properties

individually, as laboratory tested, yet, this classic formula for

Yangming/Qi stage heat, is so effective for infective diseases such as

pneumonia, encephalitis, etc. Rational scientific explanation? I'd love

to hear it!

 

My second example happened to my wife and I personally, when we came down

with HepA, back in 1982 after going overseas. There is a " segula "

brought down to heal hepatitis as follows: Take a male dove for a man,

and a female dove for a women, and place its bottom firmly against the

umbilicus. What occured with me, was truly beyond the rational: the

first bird made a rhythmic, squacking sound as if it was gasping for

breath, after a firm connection was made. It felt to me like sucking or

the feeling when one has cupping done to them. After about 10 such

gasps, it died. This strange process occurred with 10 more doves,

(actually, on the 7th dove it didn't work, but then upon examination we

realized that it was a female dove!) and then nothing happened, to the

12th. I was cured of hepatitis and actually drank wine without

consequence, within a month. Interestingly, when autopsy was done at

Hadassah hospital, (not in my case)it was found that the doves died of

asphyxiation, and not of hepatitis. Can you explain it? Energy imbalance

sounds pretty new agey to me, but what else can you say rationally. This

is not an isolated phenomenum, either, but is well known and frequently

practiced in Jewish traditional circles.

 

" I deplore as McCarthyism the complete discreditation of the

non-explainable such as

mysticism as magic or new-ageism. "

 

Thankfully agreed, especially in light of the previous. Yet, again, to

what can you attribute these " non-explainables " ?

 

Respectfully,

 

Yehuda

 

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[Guest guest]

, yehuda l frischman

<@j...> wrote:>

 

> BTW, before I give you the second example, I am reminded of the example

> my professor, Dr. Zhang, gave us concerning Bai Hu Tang. How would you

> explain rationally, how none of its four ingredients, shi gao, zhi mu,

> zhi gan cao and jing mi, contain any anti-biotic properties

> individually, as laboratory tested, yet, this classic formula for

> Yangming/Qi stage heat, is so effective for infective diseases such as

> pneumonia, encephalitis, etc. Rational scientific explanation? I'd love

> to hear it!

 

It is well known that in-vitro experimentation does not necessarily

translate to in-vivo reality. There are many more factors to consider

inside a body than in a lab. Just because a substance kills a

bacteria in a lab, does not mean that it will kill in in the body; it

may not even come into direct contact with it in the body. Just

because a substance does not kill a bacteria in a lab does not mean

that it cannot prompt an immune response in the body that will in turn

better kill the bacteria. There is no need to even begin to thing of

these things as magical.

 

> My second example happened to my wife and I personally, when we came

down

> with HepA, back in 1982 after going overseas. There is a " segula "

> brought down to heal hepatitis as follows: Take a male dove for a man,

> and a female dove for a women, and place its bottom firmly against the

> umbilicus. What occured with me, was truly beyond the rational: the

> first bird made a rhythmic, squacking sound as if it was gasping for

> breath, after a firm connection was made. It felt to me like sucking or

> the feeling when one has cupping done to them. After about 10 such

> gasps, it died. This strange process occurred with 10 more doves,

> (actually, on the 7th dove it didn't work, but then upon examination we

> realized that it was a female dove!) and then nothing happened, to the

> 12th. I was cured of hepatitis and actually drank wine without

> consequence, within a month. Interestingly, when autopsy was done at

> Hadassah hospital, (not in my case)it was found that the doves died of

> asphyxiation, and not of hepatitis. Can you explain it? Energy

 

Who held the bird? Was it the infected person or the doctor? If it

was the doctor, then the whole process is like those " faith healer "

who hide chicken organs in their hands and " extract " tumors from

people's abdomens. The doctor can simply choke and kill the birds.

By intentially " planting " a female dove and intentionally not chocking

it, that increases the suggestibility of the patient into thinking

something magical is happening. " Ooo, it did not work on that bird

because it was female... " There isn't, though - it is just good old

trickery for the sake of invoking a positive attitude (placebo effect)

in a patient.

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

HOWEVER, how

would you view, for example, an effective, yet seemingly irrational

therapy which is from an ancient source, and potentially can't be proven?

Is that magic? shamanism? irrational?

>>>>>If it can be shown to be effective than I for one do not care if it cant be

explained. However, were I need to see evidence is that it is effective. This we

can do now and by the use of the language of mathematics we can show if a

treatment is effective or not

Alon