validating the irrrational-responses

[Guest guest]

Dear Brian,

 

Thank you for addressing my post. Below please find my responses

 

 

>

concerning Bai Hu Tang. How

> would you

> > explain rationally, how none of its four ingredients, shi gao,

> zhi mu,

> > zhi gan cao and jing mi, contain any anti-biotic properties

> > individually, as laboratory tested, yet, this classic formula for

> > Yangming/Qi stage heat, is so effective for infective diseases

> such as

> > pneumonia, encephalitis, etc. Rational scientific explanation?

 

 

 

> It is well known that in-vitro experimentation does not necessarily

> translate to in-vivo reality. There are many more factors to

> consider

> inside a body than in a lab. Just because a substance kills a

> bacteria in a lab, does not mean that it will kill in in the body;

> it

> may not even come into direct contact with it in the body. Just

> because a substance does not kill a bacteria in a lab does not mean

> that it cannot prompt an immune response in the body that will in

> turn

> better kill the bacteria. There is no need to even begin to thing

> of

> these things as magical.

>

 

Four questions: first, obviously in-vivo response doesn't always

correspond to in-vitro culturing. But can you please name for me other

compounds in the Western medical pharmacoepea that kill bacteria yet

whose ingredients are not individually anti-biotic? Futhermore, can you

explain the biochemical dynamics which would could cause a compound such

as Bai Hu Tang to respond in-vivo and not in-vitro. Also, your comments

are predicated on the assumption that the four ingredients in Bai Hu Tang

do work individually in-vivo...BUT YOU MISSED THE POINT, THEY DON'T!

Only when they are decocted together are they effective. And finally,

why do you label anything that YOU can't explain rationally as " magical " ?

As Alwin so articulately put it, isn't it possible that not everything

in the realm of Chinese medicine (or other medical traditions for that

matter) can be translated and applied in Western medicine. Is that any

different than asking the question as to whether quantum principles work

for Newtonian physics. Sometimes they do but not always!

 

 

 

> > My second example happened to my wife and I personally, when we

> came

> down

> > with HepA, back in 1982 after going overseas. There is a " segula "

> > brought down to heal hepatitis as follows: Take a male dove for a

> man,

> > and a female dove for a women, and place its bottom firmly against

> the

> > umbilicus. What occured with me, was truly beyond the rational:

> the

> > first bird made a rhythmic, squacking sound as if it was gasping

> for

> > breath, after a firm connection was made. It felt to me like

> sucking or

> > the feeling when one has cupping done to them. After about 10

> such

> > gasps, it died. This strange process occurred with 10 more doves,

> > (actually, on the 7th dove it didn't work, but then upon

> examination we

> > realized that it was a female dove!) and then nothing happened, to

> the

> > 12th. I was cured of hepatitis and actually drank wine without

> > consequence, within a month. Interestingly, when autopsy was done

> at

> > Hadassah hospital, (not in my case)it was found that the doves

> died of

> > asphyxiation, and not of hepatitis. Can you explain it? Energy

 

 

> Who held the bird? Was it the infected person or the doctor? If it

> was the doctor, then the whole process is like those " faith healer "

> who hide chicken organs in their hands and " extract " tumors from

> people's abdomens. The doctor can simply choke and kill the birds.

> By intentially " planting " a female dove and intentionally not

> chocking

> it, that increases the suggestibility of the patient into thinking

> something magical is happening. " Ooo, it did not work on that bird

> because it was female... " There isn't, though - it is just good old

> trickery for the sake of invoking a positive attitude (placebo

> effect)

> in a patient.

 

To address your questions on the case of Hepatitis:

 

1. The person who held the bird was a casual friend who had no stake in

the " treatment's " success, so it certainly was not a case of faith

healing.

2. This is not an isolated case, but has been documented in medical

journals, and has been used objectively for hundreds of years.

3. The birds were clearly not choked and all the " technician " did was

maintain uninterupted contact.

4. The female bird that did not work, did later work on my wife.

5. After the final bird was successfully used, repeatedly other male

dove were tried unsuccessfully.

6. My liver was completely regenerated within one month despite having a

severe case of HepA. Placebo? Hardly!

 

Bottom line, if one is convinced that anything beyond one's understanding

is magic, sleight of hand and charlatanism, then no matter what evidence

to the contrary is brought will be rejected.

 

Why not accept and appreciate the possibility, as with the case of Bai

Hu Tang, that there are other real quantum realms or other mystical

realms that defy Western logic, and yet are part of our medical bounty?

 

Alon Marcus certainly would call himself a skeptic (correct me if I am

wrong, Alon), yet he too admitted:

 

" If it can be shown to be effective than I for one do not care if

it cant be explained. However, were I need to see evidence is that it is

effective. This we can do now and by the use of the language of

mathematics we can show if a treatment is effective or not "

 

This I feel is reasonable skepticism, for his goal and purpose is to heal

and not to discredit.

 

WE AS PHYSICIANS NEED TO ADDRESS OUR GOALS WITHOUT THE PREJUDICE OF

AGENDAS.

 

Sincerely and most definitely not fundimentalistically,

 

Yehuda

 

______________

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[Guest guest]

, yehuda l frischman

<@j...> wrote:

 

> Four questions: first, obviously in-vivo response doesn't always

> correspond to in-vitro culturing. But can you please name for me other

> compounds in the Western medical pharmacoepea that kill bacteria yet

> whose ingredients are not individually anti-biotic? Futhermore, can you

> explain the biochemical dynamics which would could cause a compound such

> as Bai Hu Tang to respond in-vivo and not in-vitro. Also, your

 

I said in my previous response that a substance may invoke an immune

response in the body, then the body would kill the bacteria, rather

than the substance killing the bacteria.

 

 

comments

> are predicated on the assumption that the four ingredients in Bai Hu

Tang

> do work individually in-vivo...BUT YOU MISSED THE POINT, THEY DON'T!

> Only when they are decocted together are they effective. And finally,

 

I did not make that assumption. However, it seems you are making an

assumption here that I bet you never tested. Try decocting the

ingredients for Bai Hu Tang individually and then administering them a

few minutes apart to an individual who is properply diagnosed with the

proper pattern

 

 

 

> why do you label anything that YOU can't explain rationally as

" magical " ?

 

I do not. You've made another assumption. I'm seeing a pattern with you.

 

 

> 1. The person who held the bird was a casual friend who had no stake in

> the " treatment's " success, so it certainly was not a case of faith

> healing.

 

Because someone else held the bird, you have no way of knowing what

really happened. You can only take his word for it, which is not real

proof. Furthermore, did he pick the bird from a group of birds, or

was it handed to him? If it was handed to him, then again, the bird

could have been tampered with.

 

> 2. This is not an isolated case, but has been documented in medical

> journals, and has been used objectively for hundreds of years.

 

Not all medical journals are reputable. Even reputable medical

journals print information that ends up being faulty. Also medical

journals sometimes print information regarding folk medicine or sham

treatments, etc. just to show that they do not work. The inclusion of

your bird thing in a medical journal is meaningless at this point

without more information.

 

 

> 3. The birds were clearly not choked and all the " technician " did was

> maintain uninterupted contact.

 

When people got chicken organs " extracted from their guts, " they

really believed that it was tumors coming out of them. It is amazing

how expectations of an outcome of an event can color one's perceptions

of the event.

 

 

> 4. The female bird that did not work, did later work on my wife.

 

I gave a possible explanation for this in my previous post.

 

 

> 5. After the final bird was successfully used, repeatedly other male

> dove were tried unsuccessfully.

 

I gave a possible explanation for this in my previous post.

 

 

> 6. My liver was completely regenerated within one month despite

having a

> severe case of HepA. Placebo? Hardly!

 

Why not? Also, who did the diagnosis, what type of diagnostic methods

were used, and was the diagnosis double checked?

 

 

> Bottom line, if one is convinced that anything beyond one's

understanding

> is magic, sleight of hand and charlatanism, then no matter what evidence

> to the contrary is brought will be rejected.

 

If one has one's life invested in a religion and it's belief system,

then no matter what evidence to the contrary is brought will be rejected.

 

 

> Why not accept and appreciate the possibility, as with the case of Bai

> Hu Tang, that there are other real quantum realms or other mystical

> realms that defy Western logic, and yet are part of our medical bounty?

 

I have no need to accept and appreciate that. What would it do for

me? If you knew me, you would know that I am extremely open minded,

but I am also skeptical. I will believe anything if there is a really

good reason to.

 

Brian C. Allen

 

 

>

> Alon Marcus certainly would call himself a skeptic (correct me if I am

> wrong, Alon), yet he too admitted:

>

> " If it can be shown to be effective than I for one do not care if

> it cant be explained. However, were I need to see evidence is that it is

> effective. This we can do now and by the use of the language of

> mathematics we can show if a treatment is effective or not "

>

> This I feel is reasonable skepticism, for his goal and purpose is to

heal

> and not to discredit.

>

> WE AS PHYSICIANS NEED TO ADDRESS OUR GOALS WITHOUT THE PREJUDICE OF

> AGENDAS.

>

> Sincerely and most definitely not fundimentalistically,

>

> Yehuda

>

> ______________

> The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!

> Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!

> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

[Guest guest]

Maybe I missed something here but using birds to " cure " Hep A is hardly mir=

aculous

since " Over 85% of people with hepatitis A recover within 3 months, and ove=

r 99% of

people recover by 6 months. The fatality rate is estimated at 0.1%, usually=

among the

elderly and patients with chronic liver disease " as stated on the medline p=

lus website.

I'll try not to make some further comments at this point.

 

 

doug

 

 

 

 

Complications   

There are usually no complications. One in a thousand cases become=

fulminant

hepatitis, which can be life threatening.

>

> > > My second example happened to my wife and I personally, when we

> > came

> > down

> > > with HepA, back in 1982 after going overseas. There is a " segula "

> > > brought down to heal hepatitis as follows: .........................=

 

 

I was cured of hepatitis and actually drank wine without

> > > consequence, within a month. Interestingly, when autopsy was done

> > at

> > > Hadassah hospital, (not in my case)it was found that the doves

> > died of

> > > asphyxiation, and not of hepatitis. Can you explain it? Energy

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Doug,

 

What was exceptional was the speed of the recovery. My wife tells me

that immediately after the first dove died, my complexion immediately

changed from dark yellow to normal. I was able to the next day, return

to work. My urine changed immediately from brown to yellow and my stool

from pasty white to brown, within a day. Within a month was a religious

holiday, and I was able to drink wine without any pain or discomfort to

my liver.

 

Listen, I'm not on a mission to convert anyone and certainly respect any

healthy skepticism, but I gave this personal example only to suggest

that one consider it possible that this was not charlatanism, and that

many traditional cures from many cultures defy our understanding of the

nature of the world, just as quantum physics blew out the laws of

Newtonian physics. And as I said earlier, there are two possibilities:

Maybe, someday, we will understand or develop new systems and methods to

give us a different way to see things, or maybe, we may never be able to

understand, and simply need to accept that some knowledge will always be

beyond our grasp. And if it is, so what? Far more important, as Alon

put it , if to mathematically verify that it does work, and if it does,

then add it to our arsenal to help people get well!

 

With much respect,

 

Yehuda

 

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 20:57:42 -0000 " "

writes:

> Maybe I missed something here but using birds to " cure " Hep A is

> hardly mir= > aculous

> since " Over 85% of people with hepatitis A recover within 3 months,

> and ove= > r 99% of

> people recover by 6 months. The fatality rate is estimated at 0.1%,

> usually= > among the

> elderly and patients with chronic liver disease " as stated on the

> medline p= > lus website.

> I'll try not to make some further comments at this point.

>

>

> doug

>

>

>

>

> Complications   

> There are usually no complications. One in a thousand cases

> become= > fulminant

> hepatitis, which can be life threatening.

> >

> > > > My second example happened to my wife and I personally, when

> we

> > > came

> > > down

> > > > with HepA, back in 1982 after going overseas. There is a

> " segula "

> > > > brought down to heal hepatitis as follows:

> .........................= >

>

> I was cured of hepatitis and actually drank wine without

> > > > consequence, within a month. Interestingly, when autopsy was

> done

> > > at

> > > > Hadassah hospital, (not in my case)it was found that the doves

>

> > > died of

> > > > asphyxiation, and not of hepatitis. Can you explain it?

> Energy

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, yehuda l frischman

<@j...> wrote:

 

> beyond our grasp. And if it is, so what? Far more important, as Alon

> put it , if to mathematically verify that it does work, and if it does,

> then add it to our arsenal to help people get well!

 

If what works? ...choking a bird and tricking someone into getting

better? That does not seem very responsible or ethical, even if it

occasionally works.

 

Brian C. Allen