Japanese uses of shang han lun formulas

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone!

Could anyone direct me to references in english on Japanese uses of Shang Han

Lun Formulas?

I have a menopausal patient who was experiencing difficulty going/staying

asleep, hotflashes day and night with red face, heart palps, fatigue,

irritability and joint pain (mostly hips, knees and fingers). She had rheumatic

fever as a child (as did many of her family members through generations). She

experienced infrequent flareups through her life with fever, heart pain, fatigue

and finger fever, pain and joint deformation. The middle and little fingers DIP

on left hand had been affected. Tongue was thin, red with yellow coat middle to

back (she is a beer drinker). Pulse was thin, wiry on left, surging in both cun

positions, and deep and weak on right guan and chi regions. I had gone " around

and around " with her with acupuncture tonifying kidney, harmonizing liver,

sedating heart. Got decent results but still felt like I wasn't hitting it. Soon

found that if she presented with allergies or cold/flu, she could not take any

releasing of the exterior without major flare of hotflashes

and sleeplessness. Her " hotflashes " tended to be preceded by " blood running

cold " sensation and the sleeplessness was always accompanied by severe acute

depressive feelings. Desperate I tried Gui Zhi Tang since I thought the bai shao

might protect yin and formula would still address exterior invasion. She had

none of the typical gui zhi tang presentation--she had sweating, and fever

predominant. However, the formula worked beautifully. In fact she reported

relief from all her symptoms except very slight hotflashes and light sweat. We

switched to Xiao Jian Zhong Tang (double baishao, add yi tang) and she is now

doing very well. How could this be? She had no abdominal pain (for which this

formula is usually prescribed), and described herself as having an " iron

stomach " . However, I did learn subsequently that she was unable to drink iced

liquids (makes her very constipated). Her joint pain has disappeared as well.

Could anyone explain what acupuncture I might have done to also help?

Again, this piques my interest in Japanese interpretations of formulas as I

understand they use these differently. What would be a good book or way to study

this? I can't believe I stumbled on this and it worked. She took antibiotics for

a couple of years after the rh fever--cold middle jiao preventing construction

and creating Yin/Yang imbalance?

 

Comments would be greatly appreciated as I am a new-ish practitioner (2 years)

and would prefer not to have to " stumble " on the right answer so much. It took a

year of treatments to come up with this. I usually feel reticent to use herbs

until I have a good fix with acupuncture because of my lack of

experience--although herbs are my main love and were my major study in school.

My acupuncture, I feel, is lacking--quite the double bind!!

Also, I think the beer drinking (which she won't give up and is not excessive--

2 per day) is creating damp heat and making it to where she only takes the

formula in the mornings and at noon every other day--otherwise the " hotflashes "

flare a little. Is this the beer? If so, are there herbs I could add to help

counteract her lifestyle a little or is the ball completely in her court on

this?

Thanks, Shanna

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Thanks for the post Shanna. I wish there were more posts like this. I

don't have enough knowledge to offer any assistance, but I sure hope there

is some discussion on the case you presented.

 

-Tim Sharpe

 

 

Shanna Hickle [shannahickle]

Tuesday, June 01, 2004 10:25 AM

 

Japanese uses of shang han lun formulas

 

Hi everyone!

Could anyone direct me to references in english on Japanese uses of Shang

Han Lun Formulas?

I have a menopausal patient who was experiencing difficulty going/staying

asleep, hotflashes day and night with red face, heart palps, fatigue,

irritability and joint pain (mostly hips, knees and fingers). She had

rheumatic fever as a child (as did many of her family members through

generations). She experienced infrequent flareups through her life with

fever, heart pain, fatigue and finger fever, pain and joint deformation. The

middle and little fingers DIP on left hand had been affected. Tongue was

thin, red with yellow coat middle to back (she is a beer drinker). Pulse was

thin, wiry on left, surging in both cun positions, and deep and weak on

right guan and chi regions. I had gone " around and around " with her with

acupuncture tonifying kidney, harmonizing liver, sedating heart. Got decent

results but still felt like I wasn't hitting it. Soon found that if she

presented with allergies or cold/flu, she could not take any releasing of

the exterior without major flare of hotflashes and sleeplessness. Her

" hotflashes " tended to be preceded by " blood running cold " sensation and the

sleeplessness was always accompanied by severe acute depressive feelings.

Desperate I tried Gui Zhi Tang since I thought the bai shao might protect

yin and formula would still address exterior invasion. She had none of the

typical gui zhi tang presentation--she had sweating, and fever predominant.

However, the formula worked beautifully. In fact she reported relief from

all her symptoms except very slight hotflashes and light sweat. We switched

to Xiao Jian Zhong Tang (double baishao, add yi tang) and she is now doing

very well. How could this be? She had no abdominal pain (for which this

formula is usually prescribed), and described herself as having an " iron

stomach " . However, I did learn subsequently that she was unable to drink

iced liquids (makes her very constipated). Her joint pain has disappeared as

well.

Could anyone explain what acupuncture I might have done to also help?

Again, this piques my interest in Japanese interpretations of formulas as I

understand they use these differently. What would be a good book or way to

study this? I can't believe I stumbled on this and it worked. She took

antibiotics for a couple of years after the rh fever--cold middle jiao

preventing construction and creating Yin/Yang imbalance?

 

Comments would be greatly appreciated as I am a new-ish practitioner (2

years) and would prefer not to have to " stumble " on the right answer so

much. It took a year of treatments to come up with this. I usually feel

reticent to use herbs until I have a good fix with acupuncture because of my

lack of experience--although herbs are my main love and were my major study

in school. My acupuncture, I feel, is lacking--quite the double bind!!

Also, I think the beer drinking (which she won't give up and is not

excessive-- 2 per day) is creating damp heat and making it to where she only

takes the formula in the mornings and at noon every other day--otherwise the

" hotflashes " flare a little. Is this the beer? If so, are there herbs I

could add to help counteract her lifestyle a little or is the ball

completely in her court on this?

Thanks, Shanna

 

 

 

 

Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger

 

 

[Guest guest]

There is a book called " Thirty Years of Kanpo " or something to that effect,

which is a nice gathering of case histories. It's available from Redwing.

It has some somewhat offbeat uses of SHL Rx.

 

-

" Tim Sharpe " <listserve

 

Tuesday, June 01, 2004 10:25 PM

RE: Japanese uses of shang han lun formulas

 

 

> Thanks for the post Shanna. I wish there were more posts like this. I

> don't have enough knowledge to offer any assistance, but I sure hope there

> is some discussion on the case you presented.

>

> -Tim Sharpe

>

>

> Shanna Hickle [shannahickle]

> Tuesday, June 01, 2004 10:25 AM

>

> Japanese uses of shang han lun formulas

>

> Hi everyone!

> Could anyone direct me to references in english on Japanese uses of Shang

> Han Lun Formulas?

> I have a menopausal patient who was experiencing difficulty going/staying

> asleep, hotflashes day and night with red face, heart palps, fatigue,

> irritability and joint pain (mostly hips, knees and fingers). She had

> rheumatic fever as a child (as did many of her family members through

> generations). She experienced infrequent flareups through her life with

> fever, heart pain, fatigue and finger fever, pain and joint deformation.

The

> middle and little fingers DIP on left hand had been affected. Tongue was

> thin, red with yellow coat middle to back (she is a beer drinker). Pulse

was

> thin, wiry on left, surging in both cun positions, and deep and weak on

> right guan and chi regions. I had gone " around and around " with her with

> acupuncture tonifying kidney, harmonizing liver, sedating heart. Got

decent

> results but still felt like I wasn't hitting it. Soon found that if she

> presented with allergies or cold/flu, she could not take any releasing of

> the exterior without major flare of hotflashes and sleeplessness. Her

> " hotflashes " tended to be preceded by " blood running cold " sensation and

the

> sleeplessness was always accompanied by severe acute depressive feelings.

> Desperate I tried Gui Zhi Tang since I thought the bai shao might protect

> yin and formula would still address exterior invasion. She had none of the

> typical gui zhi tang presentation--she had sweating, and fever

predominant.

> However, the formula worked beautifully. In fact she reported relief from

> all her symptoms except very slight hotflashes and light sweat. We

switched

> to Xiao Jian Zhong Tang (double baishao, add yi tang) and she is now doing

> very well. How could this be? She had no abdominal pain (for which this

> formula is usually prescribed), and described herself as having an " iron

> stomach " . However, I did learn subsequently that she was unable to drink

> iced liquids (makes her very constipated). Her joint pain has disappeared

as

> well.

> Could anyone explain what acupuncture I might have done to also help?

> Again, this piques my interest in Japanese interpretations of formulas as

I

> understand they use these differently. What would be a good book or way to

> study this? I can't believe I stumbled on this and it worked. She took

> antibiotics for a couple of years after the rh fever--cold middle jiao

> preventing construction and creating Yin/Yang imbalance?

>

> Comments would be greatly appreciated as I am a new-ish practitioner (2

> years) and would prefer not to have to " stumble " on the right answer so

> much. It took a year of treatments to come up with this. I usually feel

> reticent to use herbs until I have a good fix with acupuncture because of

my

> lack of experience--although herbs are my main love and were my major

study

> in school. My acupuncture, I feel, is lacking--quite the double bind!!

> Also, I think the beer drinking (which she won't give up and is not

> excessive-- 2 per day) is creating damp heat and making it to where she

only

> takes the formula in the mornings and at noon every other day--otherwise

the

> " hotflashes " flare a little. Is this the beer? If so, are there herbs I

> could add to help counteract her lifestyle a little or is the ball

> completely in her court on this?

> Thanks, Shanna

>

>

>

>

> Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Tim and Par,

 

The book is " 30 Years of Kanpo " by Keisetsu Otsuka, published by Oriental

healing arts institute,ISBN 0-941942-16-3

 

Interesting book of 374 case studies.

 

Yehuda

 

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 07:00:20 -0400 " Par Scott " <parufus

writes:

> There is a book called " Thirty Years of Kanpo " or something to that

> effect,

> which is a nice gathering of case histories. It's available from

> Redwing.

> It has some somewhat offbeat uses of SHL Rx.

>

> -

> " Tim Sharpe " <listserve

>

> Tuesday, June 01, 2004 10:25 PM

> RE: Japanese uses of shang han lun formulas

>

>

> > Thanks for the post Shanna. I wish there were more posts like

> this. I

> > don't have enough knowledge to offer any assistance, but I sure

> hope there

> > is some discussion on the case you presented.

> >

> > -Tim Sharpe

> >

> >

> > Shanna Hickle [shannahickle]

> > Tuesday, June 01, 2004 10:25 AM

> >

> > Japanese uses of shang han lun formulas

> >

> > Hi everyone!

> > Could anyone direct me to references in english on Japanese uses

> of Shang

> > Han Lun Formulas?

> > I have a menopausal patient who was experiencing difficulty

> going/staying

> > asleep, hotflashes day and night with red face, heart palps,

> fatigue,

> > irritability and joint pain (mostly hips, knees and fingers). She

> had

> > rheumatic fever as a child (as did many of her family members

> through

> > generations). She experienced infrequent flareups through her life

> with

> > fever, heart pain, fatigue and finger fever, pain and joint

> deformation.

> The

> > middle and little fingers DIP on left hand had been affected.

> Tongue was

> > thin, red with yellow coat middle to back (she is a beer drinker).

> Pulse

> was

> > thin, wiry on left, surging in both cun positions, and deep and

> weak on

> > right guan and chi regions. I had gone " around and around " with

> her with

> > acupuncture tonifying kidney, harmonizing liver, sedating heart.

> Got

> decent

> > results but still felt like I wasn't hitting it. Soon found that

> if she

> > presented with allergies or cold/flu, she could not take any

> releasing of

> > the exterior without major flare of hotflashes and sleeplessness.

> Her

> > " hotflashes " tended to be preceded by " blood running cold "

> sensation and

> the

> > sleeplessness was always accompanied by severe acute depressive

> feelings.

> > Desperate I tried Gui Zhi Tang since I thought the bai shao might

> protect

> > yin and formula would still address exterior invasion. She had

> none of the

> > typical gui zhi tang presentation--she had sweating, and fever

> predominant.

> > However, the formula worked beautifully. In fact she reported

> relief from

> > all her symptoms except very slight hotflashes and light sweat. We

> switched

> > to Xiao Jian Zhong Tang (double baishao, add yi tang) and she is

> now doing

> > very well. How could this be? She had no abdominal pain (for which

> this

> > formula is usually prescribed), and described herself as having an

> " iron

> > stomach " . However, I did learn subsequently that she was unable to

> drink

> > iced liquids (makes her very constipated). Her joint pain has

> disappeared

> as

> > well.

> > Could anyone explain what acupuncture I might have done to also

> help?

> > Again, this piques my interest in Japanese interpretations of

> formulas as

> I

> > understand they use these differently. What would be a good book

> or way to

> > study this? I can't believe I stumbled on this and it worked. She

> took

> > antibiotics for a couple of years after the rh fever--cold middle

> jiao

> > preventing construction and creating Yin/Yang imbalance?

> >

> > Comments would be greatly appreciated as I am a new-ish

> practitioner (2

> > years) and would prefer not to have to " stumble " on the right

> answer so

> > much. It took a year of treatments to come up with this. I usually

> feel

> > reticent to use herbs until I have a good fix with acupuncture

> because of

> my

> > lack of experience--although herbs are my main love and were my

> major

> study

> > in school. My acupuncture, I feel, is lacking--quite the double

> bind!!

> > Also, I think the beer drinking (which she won't give up and is

> not

> > excessive-- 2 per day) is creating damp heat and making it to

> where she

> only

> > takes the formula in the mornings and at noon every other

> day--otherwise

> the

> > " hotflashes " flare a little. Is this the beer? If so, are there

> herbs I

> > could add to help counteract her lifestyle a little or is the ball

> > completely in her court on this?

> > Thanks, Shanna

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

At 8:25 AM -0700 6/1/04, Shanna Hickle wrote:

>I have a menopausal patient who was experiencing difficulty

>going/staying asleep, hotflashes day and night with red face, heart

>palps, fatigue, irritability and joint pain (mostly hips, knees and

>fingers). She had rheumatic fever as a child (as did many of her

>family members through generations). She experienced infrequent

>flareups through her life with fever, heart pain, fatigue and finger

>fever, pain and joint deformation. The middle and little fingers DIP

>on left hand had been affected. Tongue was thin, red with yellow

>coat middle to back (she is a beer drinker). Pulse was thin, wiry on

>left, surging in both cun positions, and deep and weak on right guan

>and chi regions. I had gone " around and around " with her with

>acupuncture tonifying kidney, harmonizing liver, sedating heart. Got

>decent results but still felt like I wasn't hitting it. Soon found

>that if she presented with allergies or cold/flu, she could not take

>any releasing of the exterior without major flare of hot flashes and

>sleeplessness. Her " hotflashes " tended to be preceded by " blood

>running cold " sensation and the sleeplessness was always accompanied

>by severe acute depressive feelings. Desperate I tried Gui Zhi Tang

>since I thought the bai shao might protect yin and formula would

>still address exterior invasion. She had none of the typical gui zhi

>tang presentation--she had sweating, and fever predominant. However,

>the formula worked beautifully. In fact she reported relief from all

>her symptoms except very slight hotflashes and light sweat.

--

Shanna,

 

I'm sorry it's taken a few days to respond. I must compliment you on

arriving accidentally, so you say, at the right treatment, and

affirming the wonders of the Shang Han Lun. I don't practice Kampo,

but nonetheless would like to address a couple of issues raised by

your post.

 

First and foremost, I'm not sure why you are surprised that gui zhi

tang (GZT) was helpful in this case. The patient had an external

pattern with sweating. According to the Shang Han Lun (SHL), sweating

IS part of the GZT presentation; and fever (heat effusion) IS part of

the GZT presentation.

 

Second, based on the above, the pattern here is clearly disharmony of

the ying and wei. Gui zhi tang is the formula of choice for this

pattern, regardless of the complexity of of the overall picture.

 

Third, in thinking about the role of bai shao in GZT, while you may

be right that bai shao will protect the yin, that is not the SHL

rationale for its use in this case. With a disharmony of ying and

wei, gui zhi and bai shao together expel the pathogen and harmonize

the ying and wei; separately they may well neither expel the pathogen

nor contract the yin. If the pathogen is not expelled by gui zhi, the

ying and wei cannot be returned to harmony. If the yin is constrained

by bai shao, the pathogen cannot be expelled. In other words, they

have to work together.

 

Fourth, it is an essential part of SHL practice that the pulse be

included in the diagnosis.

 

 

>We switched to Xiao Jian Zhong Tang (double baishao, add yi tang)

>and she is now doing very well. How could this be? She had no

>abdominal pain (for which this formula is usually prescribed), and

>described herself as having an " iron stomach " . However, I did learn

>subsequently that she was unable to drink iced liquids (makes her

>very constipated). Her joint pain has disappeared as well.

--

As she is still slightly symptomatic, I would suggest modifying xiao

jian zhong tang: perhaps reduce the quantitiy of gui zhi, and huang

qi and dang gui.

 

 

>Again, this piques my interest in Japanese interpretations of

>formulas as I understand they use these differently.

--

My view is, as I try to make clear above, that your treatment is

consistent with Chinese Shang Han Lun practice, so it is unnecessary

to look to the Japanese interpretations. I'd recommend getting Craig

Mitchell, Fang Ye translation of the SHL (Paradigm), which has a

wealth of interesting commentary. I believe Craig is teaching at the

upcoming CHA conference.

 

Rory

 

 

--