Guest guest Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 Roger, et al, While I whole-heartedly agree that the requirements for entrance and graduation from most, if not all, Chinese medicinal schools in the US are to relaxed I don't see anyone in a position to change it making the changes that need to be made. We can blame it on -isms or students but isn't it the fault of the teachers and administrators and those with enough money to open/run a school? Bob Flaws has suggested, in the past, that schools should be associated with mainstream medicinal schools. This may or may not be realized, but I would question this movement. Though it may stabilized the education of students and increase popularity of the profession, it may help to fund research and give students better access to Western biomedical sciences, BUT would it help Chinese medicine. Just because this is one of the ways in which it is done in China does not make it the best way, yes the Chinese make mistakes. I would like to put forth that it will take more than rigor from students to make our profession stronger. I believe that the structure (physical and non-physical) for our schools must change in order for our profession to grow in a way that most of us seem to agree must happen. What makes a Western biomedical school strong? -They have funding. -They have undergraduate programs feeding there graduate programs. -They have hospitals and clinics associated with or run by the school. Hospitals offer in-patient care. This is a MAJOR down-fall of the way in which Chinese medicine is offered in this country (IMHO). What makes a Chinese medical school weak? -They are so profit driven that they admit anyone with a pulse. -They do not require students to learn the material, instead they focus on the students memorizing a small amount of information needed to pass " the test " . -The Western sciences offered at these schools are either poorly taught or the requirements to pass are so low that anyone who can read can pass them. -The clinical portion of the programs suck, sorry if that is harsh, but its true. They are to short, there aren't enough patients, nor the variety of cases one will see in " the real world " . Many of the clinical skills taught in classes are barely touched on in the clinic and students come out in a poor position to help others, and they don't even realize it. I'm quite sure there are many other things that could be added to either list. Further, a opposing list could be made for both " types " of schools. I'm not suggesting that biomedical schools have the education portion of their profession totally figured out, I doubt that is really possible. However, I do think that we can learn for what works for in those schools, and what doesn't, and put it into practice. Let's stop blaming and start solving, shall we. thomas P.S. I trust I will get blasted for this post, so let me have it! Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture acupuncture and herbal information " Knowing nothing, you will be aware of everything. " Laozi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 , " " @e...> wrote: > > thomas > P.S. I trust I will get blasted for this post, so let me have it! > seems pretty well reasoned to me, except for the part about teachers whose hands are often tied by the low caliber of students and other institutional issues. While I agree with Bob that association with med schools is one model, so is the SIOM approach. SIOM has 50 students, about 15 in each class, the faculty is paid well and school makes a profit. The grads have a 100% pass rate on exams and they are held in the highest regard by students and faculty from other schools for their superb abilities and knowledge. And they can read chinese. Such a school can be started on a shoestring and I think southern Cal could use such a school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 Zhang Fu Jiang (sp?) tried this in LA but ultimately failed. It may have been more due to her administrative failings than the teaching itself. Although well respected in LA she doesn't have the clout of Bensky's reputation although again I don't know if this factored in the school's closing. The Homeopathic school which is offering a PHD (in Philosophy or something) seems to be doing well with their Jeffery Yuen program. But this is post graduate and post testing. I believe most students there have an LAc. doug SIOM has > 50 students, about 15 in each class, the faculty is paid well and school makes a profit. > The grads have a 100% pass rate on exams and they are held in the highest regard by > students and faculty from other schools for their superb abilities and knowledge. And > they can read chinese. Such a school can be started on a shoestring and I think southern > Cal could use such a school. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 At 8:40 AM +0000 6/3/04, wrote: >Zhang Fu Jiang -- Jian Fu Jiang, or Jiang Jian-Fu. She's a wonderful practitioner, and has a deep knowledge of Chinese medicine. Rory ===================== >Zhang Fu Jiang (sp?) tried this in LA but ultimately failed. It may >have been more due >to her administrative failings than the teaching itself. Although >well respected in LA >she doesn't have the clout of Bensky's reputation although again I >don't know if this >factored in the school's closing. > >The Homeopathic school which is offering a PHD (in Philosophy or >something) seems >to be doing well with their Jeffery Yuen program. But this is post >graduate and post >testing. I believe most students there have an LAc. > >doug > >SIOM has >> 50 students, about 15 in each class, the faculty is paid well and >>school makes a >profit. >> The grads have a 100% pass rate on exams and they are held in the >>highest regard >by >> students and faculty from other schools for their superb abilities >>and knowledge. >And >> they can read chinese. Such a school can be started on a >>shoestring and I think >southern >> Cal could use such a school. >> >> Todd > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, >including board approved continuing education classes, an annual >conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > ><http://www..org>http://www..org > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 Thomas, If all levels of administration and political forces behind the schools were ethical, then your ideas might make sense. However, we live in an imperfect world, with increasing amounts of corruption here in the US. My teacher, Dr. CS Cheung, has had lengthy discussions with me about the politics and corruption within the medical and TCM professions in China - he escaped during the Cultural Revolution - and he agrees strongly with me that the reason Chinese medicine evolved to the level it did in China was because there were no imperial bureaucratic institutions to impose their will on all its practitioners, until recently, that is, as China has adopted the western model of top-down regulation and licensing. For them this has been a disaster, as much of TCM is being gradually replaced with Rockefeller-style medicine. (Rockefeller foundation money helped to establish many of the Chinese medical research institutions.) Centralized bureaucracies, which is what your proposal would require even more of, are rarely a source of solutions, but tend to develop agendas of their own merely to maintain power. In a separate message I describe an alternative that includes apprenticeship options. My main beef with accredited schooling and degree programs, is that students have to take the whole program, even if much of it is poorly taught. Why not let students study from the best teachers and clinicians wherever they might be, and regardless of whether they are affiliated with a school or not??? Some of the best TCM clinicians I interned with were not affiliated with schools, as they could not stomach the petty and rude politics. You are right that there is not enough **quality** clinical training. However, some of the worst quality clinical training I have seen in certain TCM colleges. And students do complain about it - why not let students intern with outside practitioners of their choice? Most students would choose to intern with practioners who actually knew something. Many of the reports I get back from students who have studied in China are that the quality of clinical training is usually not so great there either - cookbookish methods, inadequate patient interviews, etc. are the rule. The main advantage is getting to observe serious illnesses of the type where hospitalization is required. That may be why the physicians in my courses have a better grasp on things - they have already seen serious illness, and know what works and what doesn't, and when they begin to understand TCM, they see how it might have applied to their cases in intensive care or the emergency ward. For the non-health practitioner students, all of TCM is theoretical, and they have no practical grounding for it, until they get into a good clinical internship situation. ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org > " " >Rigor > >Roger, et al, > >While I whole-heartedly agree that the requirements for entrance and >graduation from most, if not all, Chinese medicinal schools in the US are to >relaxed I don't see anyone in a position to change it making the changes >that need to be made. We can blame it on -isms or students but isn't it the >fault of the teachers and administrators and those with enough money to >open/run a school? Bob Flaws has suggested, in the past, that schools should >be associated with mainstream medicinal schools. This may or may not be >realized, but I would question this movement. Though it may stabilized the >education of students and increase popularity of the profession, it may help >to fund research and give students better access to Western biomedical >sciences, BUT would it help Chinese medicine. Just because this is one of >the ways in which it is done in China does not make it the best way, yes the >Chinese make mistakes. > >I would like to put forth that it will take more than rigor from students to >make our profession stronger. I believe that the structure (physical and >non-physical) for our schools must change in order for our profession to >grow in a way that most of us seem to agree must happen. > >What makes a Western biomedical school strong? >-They have funding. >-They have undergraduate programs feeding there graduate programs. >-They have hospitals and clinics associated with or run by the school. >Hospitals offer in-patient care. This is a MAJOR down-fall of the way in >which Chinese medicine is offered in this country (IMHO). > > >What makes a Chinese medical school weak? >-They are so profit driven that they admit anyone with a pulse. >-They do not require students to learn the material, instead they focus on >the students memorizing a small amount of information needed to pass " the >test " . >-The Western sciences offered at these schools are either poorly taught or >the requirements to pass are so low that anyone who can read can pass them. >-The clinical portion of the programs suck, sorry if that is harsh, but its >true. They are to short, there aren't enough patients, nor the variety of >cases one will see in " the real world " . Many of the clinical skills taught >in classes are barely touched on in the clinic and students come out in a >poor position to help others, and they don't even realize it. > >I'm quite sure there are many other things that could be added to either >list. Further, a opposing list could be made for both " types " of schools. >I'm not suggesting that biomedical schools have the education portion of >their profession totally figured out, I doubt that is really possible. >However, I do think that we can learn for what works for in those schools, >and what doesn't, and put it into practice. Let's stop blaming and start >solving, shall we. > >thomas >P.S. I trust I will get blasted for this post, so let me have it! > > >Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture >acupuncture and herbal information > > > > " Knowing nothing, you will be aware of everything. " > Laozi ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 " Many of the reports I get back from students who have studied in China are that the quality of clinical training is usually not so great there either - cookbookish methods, inadequate patient interviews, etc. are the rule. The main advantage is getting to observe serious illnesses of the type where hospitalization is required. " For sure many Western students have poor experiences in China. Some of this is the Chineses's fault; some of it is the Westerners' fault. On the Chinese side, the main impetus for their training of non-Chinese is the money. They also tend to have a low estimation of Western students in general. So they often pass these students off to lower level teachers if they can get away with it. There is also the concept of guanxi to deal with. Guanxi means connection. Until or unless you have a personal connection, you're not going to get the best. In fact, you may not get much at all -- only the minimum they can get away with. It takes time to develop guanxi. This means either a long stay or multiple visits. On the Western students' side, first and foremost is the language barrier. The more Chinese you know, in general, the better your experience will be. Knowledge of Chinese will let you by-pass poorly trained and often uninterested translators. It will also let you ask questions directly to your teacher or your patients. Further, it is one of the quickest ways to establish guanxi. Secondly, the more you know about Chinese culture and etiquette, the quicker you will establish guanxi. Many Western students shoot themselves in the foot by some social or educational faux pas which consigns them to the " stupid barbarian bin. " Often, the Western students have no idea what sin they have committed since it was something completely off their cultural radar. Third, the more you already know about Chinese medicine, the better your experience will be. It's my experience that you have to prove to the Chiense that you are worth teaching the good stuff to. As I've mentioned before on this forum, I've seen several groups of Westerners in China all studying at the same institutions where different members came away with totally different experiences. While I'm not exonerating the Chinese for their own cultural foibles and short-comings, I also think a lot of the problems Western students have with China trainings are carry-overs from the schools on this side of the Da Ping Hai. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 Many Western students shoot themselves in the foot by some social or educational faux pas which consigns them to the " stupid barbarian bin. " >>>Bob i think it can work in both ways. May be my experience is unique in that i was in china back in 1985 and they really wanted to please me. But at first they had their ideas and wanted me to take stupid classes, etc. I very strongly, and if anyone knows me, in a very non-Chinese way, insisted to: see my own patients under supervision, follow and practice with the most well known and respected Dr in the hospital, have a translator that is also a TCM Dr that would not only spend time with me in the clinic, but also in the evening going over all the records we have been reviewing. There was much commotion and shock at my demands, the way I made them, my threats of not to pay, etc. But it worked and I basically wrote my own ticket. The rest of the people in my group basically did the Chinese program as planed for them.I know I got more out of the trip then they did. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 > Many Western students shoot themselves in the foot > by some social or educational faux pas which consigns them to the > " stupid barbarian bin. " Often, the Western students have no idea what > sin they have committed since it was something completely off their > cultural radar. ... > Bob > Bob, I agree wholeheartedly with this run down of the Chinese clinical experience. I plan to return late this year or early next year and I am confident the experience will be much better than my first. I would greatly appreciate it if you could share some of the common social and educational fax pas we lao wai commonly make. Sure I know of some, but I could always know more and this knowledge is rarely shared and as you rightly point out in your post.....our cultural naïvety contributes to the perpetual problems and frustrations we cause ourselves when attempting to study in China. Best Wishes, Dr. Steven J Slater Practitioner and Acupuncturist Mobile: 0418 343 545 chinese_medicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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