Supernatural beings should not play a part in diagnosis or treatment?

[Guest guest]

Hi All, & Hi Shanna,

 

> I agree with Todd that " supernatural beings " should not play a

> part in diagnosis or treatment. Regards, shanna

 

Most ancient medical cultures began with " Priest-Healers " , for

whom healing the Spirit, and/or detatching alien Spirits from the

aura of the subject, was a significant part of their rituals. Of course,

time has moved on, and most modern people in westernised

societies have relegated this aspect of healing to the status of

myth and superstition. Also, we can assume that the Priest

Healers knew nothing of microsurgery, modern allopathic

medicines, interferon therapy, etc. Horses for courses...

 

First, let us discuss what we mean by " supernatural being " . I

discount the " ordinary soul " of humans or animals as supernatural.

For me, " ordinary Soul/Spirit " is real, natural, just not easy to

sense or measure. It is another natural reality of being that survives

independent of the body, and probably preceded the body, and

probably recycles into other beings after the physical death of the

current body.

 

My idea of " Supernatural Beings " comes from a mixture of many

religious beliefs (Christian, Hindu, Jewish and other). " Supernature "

means above, or beyond, or greater than, nature. Therefore, I

understand " Supernatural Beings " to be of a higher, more powerful,

order than " ordinary Souls " . The ultimate " Supernatural Beings " are

God and the Devil; lesser ones are the demigods, demidevils, and

angels. I see these as existing without the need for a body, but

capable of " latching on to it " , or influencing it, for good or evil,

depending on the nature of the Superbeing.

 

Some modern therapists, however, would disagree that

" supernatural beings " should not play a part in diagnosis or

treatment. It is a little too cut and dried. For example, the Worsley

School puts more emphasis on Spirit Attack than most other

schools.

 

My first teacher in complementary medicine, Roy Ogden (God

Rest his Soul) was a great psychic, and an unbelievably good

" distant diagnostician " . I can attest to that from being with him, and

talking to some of his clients. Roy told me that he believed many

addicts that he treated had malign spitits " latched on " to them. His

main treatment (apart from giving appropriate acupuncture and

homeopathic remedies) was to focus for a few minutes each day

on the photographs of his " attacked clients " and try to dismiss the

malign spirits, or " homeless ordinary hitchiking " spirits from his

clients' auras. That can be a risky business for the therapist, but

that is a story for another day, if you are interested in it.

 

That said, (and having caused some of you to snort or pull your hair

out!), I agree that the vast majority cases that we are asked to help

have no involvement of malign " supernatural beings " . And I am

thankful for that; I would not like to tangle unnecessarily with those

forces.

 

In the Art of War, Lao Tzu said " Know and respect your enemy " .

He was correct. Malign Superbeings an enemy not to be

underestimated.

 

The greatest lie that the Devil ever pulled was to convince most

people that he does not exist.

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

[Guest guest]

Phil,

 

I appreciate your fielding the " supernatural beings " issue. I've spoken to too

many practitioners, on too many separate occasions, and have read too many books

(Jerry Alan Johnson's book on Chinese Medical Qigong Therpay, for example) from

too many different fields and time periods to not respect the role that either

neutral or malign 'other entities' play in our world of disease and medicine.

Personally, I dream of being able to treat anything that comes through the door.

'No limits' is my mantra, and I believe ours is just such a system of medicine

to allow such a possibility. Possession is a perfect example of this.

 

At least now they're snorting at two of us.

 

--- John

 

 

< wrote:

Hi All, & Hi Shanna,

 

> I agree with Todd that " supernatural beings " should not play a

> part in diagnosis or treatment. Regards, shanna

 

Most ancient medical cultures began with " Priest-Healers " , for

whom healing the Spirit, and/or detatching alien Spirits from the

aura of the subject, was a significant part of their rituals. Of course,

time has moved on, and most modern people in westernised

societies have relegated this aspect of healing to the status of

myth and superstition. Also, we can assume that the Priest

Healers knew nothing of microsurgery, modern allopathic

medicines, interferon therapy, etc. Horses for courses...

 

First, let us discuss what we mean by " supernatural being " . I

discount the " ordinary soul " of humans or animals as supernatural.

For me, " ordinary Soul/Spirit " is real, natural, just not easy to

sense or measure. It is another natural reality of being that survives

independent of the body, and probably preceded the body, and

probably recycles into other beings after the physical death of the

current body.

 

My idea of " Supernatural Beings " comes from a mixture of many

religious beliefs (Christian, Hindu, Jewish and other). " Supernature "

means above, or beyond, or greater than, nature. Therefore, I

understand " Supernatural Beings " to be of a higher, more powerful,

order than " ordinary Souls " . The ultimate " Supernatural Beings " are

God and the Devil; lesser ones are the demigods, demidevils, and

angels. I see these as existing without the need for a body, but

capable of " latching on to it " , or influencing it, for good or evil,

depending on the nature of the Superbeing.

 

Some modern therapists, however, would disagree that

" supernatural beings " should not play a part in diagnosis or

treatment. It is a little too cut and dried. For example, the Worsley

School puts more emphasis on Spirit Attack than most other

schools.

 

My first teacher in complementary medicine, Roy Ogden (God

Rest his Soul) was a great psychic, and an unbelievably good

" distant diagnostician " . I can attest to that from being with him, and

talking to some of his clients. Roy told me that he believed many

addicts that he treated had malign spitits " latched on " to them. His

main treatment (apart from giving appropriate acupuncture and

homeopathic remedies) was to focus for a few minutes each day

on the photographs of his " attacked clients " and try to dismiss the

malign spirits, or " homeless ordinary hitchiking " spirits from his

clients' auras. That can be a risky business for the therapist, but

that is a story for another day, if you are interested in it.

 

That said, (and having caused some of you to snort or pull your hair

out!), I agree that the vast majority cases that we are asked to help

have no involvement of malign " supernatural beings " . And I am

thankful for that; I would not like to tangle unnecessarily with those

forces.

 

In the Art of War, Lao Tzu said " Know and respect your enemy " .

He was correct. Malign Superbeings an enemy not to be

underestimated.

 

The greatest lie that the Devil ever pulled was to convince most

people that he does not exist.

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>

i think this is a great little discourse by Phil. I don't want to water it down

but in a sense all

emotional/spirit therapies try to deal with these malignent spirits. The Shadow

come to

mind for me in terms of Jung.

doug

 

> My first teacher in complementary medicine, Roy Ogden (God

> Rest his Soul) was a great psychic, and an unbelievably good

> " distant diagnostician " . I can attest to that from being with him, and

> talking to some of his clients. Roy told me that he believed many

> addicts that he treated had malign spitits " latched on " to them. His

> main treatment (apart from giving appropriate acupuncture and

> homeopathic remedies) was to focus for a few minutes each day

> on the photographs of his " attacked clients " and try to dismiss the

> malign spirits, or " homeless ordinary hitchiking " spirits from his

> clients' auras. That can be a risky business for the therapist, but

> that is a story for another day, if you are interested in it.

>

> That said, (and having caused some of you to snort or pull your hair

> out!), I agree that the vast majority cases that we are asked to help

> have no involvement of malign " supernatural beings " . And I am

> thankful for that; I would not like to tangle unnecessarily with those

> forces.

>

> In the Art of War, Lao Tzu said " Know and respect your enemy " .

> He was correct. Malign Superbeings an enemy not to be

> underestimated.

>

> The greatest lie that the Devil ever pulled was to convince most

> people that he does not exist.

>

> Best regards,

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil,

 

You said:

 

That can be a risky business for the therapist, but

that is a story for another day, if you are interested in it.

 

 

Yes, I would be interested in it....can you tell more?

 

Laura

 

 

 

, " "

<@e...> wrote:

> Hi All, & Hi Shanna,

>

> > I agree with Todd that " supernatural beings " should not play a

> > part in diagnosis or treatment. Regards, shanna

>

> Most ancient medical cultures began with " Priest-Healers " , for

> whom healing the Spirit, and/or detatching alien Spirits from the

> aura of the subject, was a significant part of their rituals. Of

course,

> time has moved on, and most modern people in westernised

> societies have relegated this aspect of healing to the status of

> myth and superstition. Also, we can assume that the Priest

> Healers knew nothing of microsurgery, modern allopathic

> medicines, interferon therapy, etc. Horses for courses...

>

> First, let us discuss what we mean by " supernatural being " . I

> discount the " ordinary soul " of humans or animals as supernatural.

> For me, " ordinary Soul/Spirit " is real, natural, just not easy to

> sense or measure. It is another natural reality of being that

survives

> independent of the body, and probably preceded the body, and

> probably recycles into other beings after the physical death of the

> current body.

>

> My idea of " Supernatural Beings " comes from a mixture of many

> religious beliefs (Christian, Hindu, Jewish and

other). " Supernature "

> means above, or beyond, or greater than, nature. Therefore, I

> understand " Supernatural Beings " to be of a higher, more powerful,

> order than " ordinary Souls " . The ultimate " Supernatural Beings " are

> God and the Devil; lesser ones are the demigods, demidevils, and

> angels. I see these as existing without the need for a body, but

> capable of " latching on to it " , or influencing it, for good or

evil,

> depending on the nature of the Superbeing.

>

> Some modern therapists, however, would disagree that

> " supernatural beings " should not play a part in diagnosis or

> treatment. It is a little too cut and dried. For example, the

Worsley

> School puts more emphasis on Spirit Attack than most other

> schools.

>

> My first teacher in complementary medicine, Roy Ogden (God

> Rest his Soul) was a great psychic, and an unbelievably good

> " distant diagnostician " . I can attest to that from being with him,

and

> talking to some of his clients. Roy told me that he believed many

> addicts that he treated had malign spitits " latched on " to them.

His

> main treatment (apart from giving appropriate acupuncture and

> homeopathic remedies) was to focus for a few minutes each day

> on the photographs of his " attacked clients " and try to dismiss the

> malign spirits, or " homeless ordinary hitchiking " spirits from his

> clients' auras. That can be a risky business for the therapist, but

> that is a story for another day, if you are interested in it.

>

> That said, (and having caused some of you to snort or pull your

hair

> out!), I agree that the vast majority cases that we are asked to

help

> have no involvement of malign " supernatural beings " . And I am

> thankful for that; I would not like to tangle unnecessarily with

those

> forces.

>

> In the Art of War, Lao Tzu said " Know and respect your enemy " .

> He was correct. Malign Superbeings an enemy not to be

> underestimated.

>

> The greatest lie that the Devil ever pulled was to convince most

> people that he does not exist.

>

> Best regards,

>

> Email: <@e...>

>

> WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4,

Ireland

> Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

>

> HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

> Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

> WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

>

> Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not

interrupt man doing it "

[Guest guest]

Yeah, she wrote and we had a brief exchange, then i didn't hear back - but she

had mentioned that she would be traveling this week, or something.

 

Did you go the gw site? Double ugh.

 

a

 

 

>

i think this is a great little discourse by Phil. I don't want to water it down

but in a sense all

emotional/spirit therapies try to deal with these malignent spirits. The Shadow

come to

mind for me in terms of Jung.

doug

 

> My first teacher in complementary medicine, Roy Ogden (God

> Rest his Soul) was a great psychic, and an unbelievably good

> " distant diagnostician " . I can attest to that from being with him, and

> talking to some of his clients. Roy told me that he believed many

> addicts that he treated had malign spitits " latched on " to them. His

> main treatment (apart from giving appropriate acupuncture and

> homeopathic remedies) was to focus for a few minutes each day

> on the photographs of his " attacked clients " and try to dismiss the

> malign spirits, or " homeless ordinary hitchiking " spirits from his

> clients' auras. That can be a risky business for the therapist, but

> that is a story for another day, if you are interested in it.

>

> That said, (and having caused some of you to snort or pull your hair

> out!), I agree that the vast majority cases that we are asked to help

> have no involvement of malign " supernatural beings " . And I am

> thankful for that; I would not like to tangle unnecessarily with those

> forces.

>

> In the Art of War, Lao Tzu said " Know and respect your enemy " .

> He was correct. Malign Superbeings an enemy not to be

> underestimated.

>

> The greatest lie that the Devil ever pulled was to convince most

> people that he does not exist.

>

> Best regards,

>

>

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Phil,

 

Thank you for your post. I agree with the existence of " malign spirits " , as you

called them. I have experienced them personally, and was only able to be rid of

one with the assistance of a Native American friend of mine. He was not a

shaman, and did not regard himself a healer, but he did a simple ceremony for me

that was effective immediately, in a way that years of therapy and acupuncture

and herbs and dietary regimens and exercise and shamanic healings were not. I

imagine, but don't know for sure, that at its origins, our medicine included

treating persons for these sorts of disorders. While I have some interest in

knowing how to do that, I also know how very dangerous it can be to work on that

level. To be honest, I find it a frightening proposition, and not one I feel

personally qualified nor professionally trained to handle. I do wish, however,

that I were trained to recognize such disorders, and had qualified professionals

to refer such clients to. I don't believe that

this area is recognized for the most part, by mental health professionals, who

are more apt to diagnose a person as delusional than as having a spirit

attachment. I know the Worsley school addresses this, and this has been one of

my interests in learning that system; however, I remain a bit chicken in the

face of this one of life's mysteries.

 

 

 

< wrote:

Hi All, & Hi Shanna,

 

> I agree with Todd that " supernatural beings " should not play a

> part in diagnosis or treatment. Regards, shanna

 

Most ancient medical cultures began with " Priest-Healers " , for

whom healing the Spirit, and/or detatching alien Spirits from the

aura of the subject, was a significant part of their rituals. Of course,

time has moved on, and most modern people in westernised

societies have relegated this aspect of healing to the status of

myth and superstition. Also, we can assume that the Priest

Healers knew nothing of microsurgery, modern allopathic

medicines, interferon therapy, etc. Horses for courses...

 

First, let us discuss what we mean by " supernatural being " . I

discount the " ordinary soul " of humans or animals as supernatural.

For me, " ordinary Soul/Spirit " is real, natural, just not easy to

sense or measure. It is another natural reality of being that survives

independent of the body, and probably preceded the body, and

probably recycles into other beings after the physical death of the

current body.

 

My idea of " Supernatural Beings " comes from a mixture of many

religious beliefs (Christian, Hindu, Jewish and other). " Supernature "

means above, or beyond, or greater than, nature. Therefore, I

understand " Supernatural Beings " to be of a higher, more powerful,

order than " ordinary Souls " . The ultimate " Supernatural Beings " are

God and the Devil; lesser ones are the demigods, demidevils, and

angels. I see these as existing without the need for a body, but

capable of " latching on to it " , or influencing it, for good or evil,

depending on the nature of the Superbeing.

 

Some modern therapists, however, would disagree that

" supernatural beings " should not play a part in diagnosis or

treatment. It is a little too cut and dried. For example, the Worsley

School puts more emphasis on Spirit Attack than most other

schools.

 

My first teacher in complementary medicine, Roy Ogden (God

Rest his Soul) was a great psychic, and an unbelievably good

" distant diagnostician " . I can attest to that from being with him, and

talking to some of his clients. Roy told me that he believed many

addicts that he treated had malign spitits " latched on " to them. His

main treatment (apart from giving appropriate acupuncture and

homeopathic remedies) was to focus for a few minutes each day

on the photographs of his " attacked clients " and try to dismiss the

malign spirits, or " homeless ordinary hitchiking " spirits from his

clients' auras. That can be a risky business for the therapist, but

that is a story for another day, if you are interested in it.

 

That said, (and having caused some of you to snort or pull your hair

out!), I agree that the vast majority cases that we are asked to help

have no involvement of malign " supernatural beings " . And I am

thankful for that; I would not like to tangle unnecessarily with those

forces.

 

In the Art of War, Lao Tzu said " Know and respect your enemy " .

He was correct. Malign Superbeings an enemy not to be

underestimated.

 

The greatest lie that the Devil ever pulled was to convince most

people that he does not exist.

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " "

<@e...> wrote:

 

>

> First, let us discuss what we mean by " supernatural being " . I

> discount the " ordinary soul " of humans or animals as supernatural.

> For me, " ordinary Soul/Spirit " is real, natural, just not easy to

> sense or measure. It is another natural reality of being that

survives

> independent of the body, and probably preceded the body, and

> probably recycles into other beings after the physical death of the

> current body.

 

I completely agree with this conjecture. I believe human beings can

evolve in a transrational state of consciousness, but that most

premodern ideas about this transfromation considered such changes

mystical, when they are actually natural and evolutionary. So-called

mystics are just human beings who represent the next phase of

evolution. But characterizing their abilities as anything but

natural just sets this process back 1000 years.

"

[Guest guest]

 

You are going to have to explain your position more clearly. While

I am happy to see you opening up to the possibilities of existence

beyond the limits of the rational in terms of consciousness, I don't

understand how you relate consciousness to evolution.

Your statement about mystics representing 'the next phase of

evolution' makes me think you are referring to the ideas of Ken Wilbur,

however when I hear this, it makes me wonder how the development of

consciousness could be just the result of a mechanical evolutionary

process.

Evolution as developed in the ideas of Darwin, and most of the

modern sciences, is decidedly materialistic, and condemns the concept

of a soul, clairvoyance, reincarnation or even a consciousness that

exists apart from the meat-brain. I think if you clarify how you

relate to this, it might bring some interesting dynamics to this

discussion.

 

 

On Jun 25, 2004, at 2:37 PM, .geo wrote:

 

> I completely agree with this conjecture. I believe human beings can

> evolve in a transrational state of consciousness, but that most

> premodern ideas about this transfromation considered such changes

> mystical, when they are actually natural and evolutionary. So-called

> mystics are just human beings who represent the next phase of

> evolution. But characterizing their abilities as anything but

> natural just sets this process back 1000 years.

>

 

[Guest guest]

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

>

> You are going to have to explain your position more clearly. While

> I am happy to see you opening up to the possibilities of existence

> beyond the limits of the rational in terms of consciousness, I don't

> understand how you relate consciousness to evolution.

 

 

I am not opening up to anything; I have always had this mindset since long

before I

studied either science or mysticism.

 

 

> Your statement about mystics representing 'the next phase of

> evolution' makes me think you are referring to the ideas of Ken Wilbur,

> however when I hear this, it makes me wonder how the development of

> consciousness could be just the result of a mechanical evolutionary

> process.

> Evolution as developed in the ideas of Darwin, and most of the

> modern sciences, is decidedly materialistic, and condemns the concept

> of a soul, clairvoyance, reincarnation or even a consciousness that

> exists apart from the meat-brain. I think if you clarify how you

> relate to this, it might bring some interesting dynamics to this

> discussion.

 

 

I actually think its way off topic to go much further. However, as you

surmised, much of

my philosophy in this matter can be found amongst the endless rambling of Ken

Wilber.

While I have no interest in pursing this or debating the merits of Wilber on

every point, I

think he lays outs the relationship between spirit and matter as is contained in

the

perennial wisdom quite clearly. Sex, ecology and spiritulaity covers the topic,

but other

sources are more concise. Actually, for those who prefer a tragic romance novel

to

verbose philosophizing, Wilber's autobiographical Grace and Grit also covers the

topic a

bit.

 

Modern biologists are prevented from understanding the full ramifications of

evolutionary

theory as it plays out in culture because of their reductionistic materialism.

The missing

piece of the puzzle is probably consciousness. In the perennial wisdom,

consciousness

descends into matter (the tao becomes manifest) and the process of the creation

of the

universe and biological and cultural evolution is driven by this unfolding

consciousness.

But to me, this spark of consciousness is just a natural phenomena itself. It

is no deity,

deserving of no worship or adherence to tradition of any kind. It makes no

decisions nor

plans any events, nor cares about anything. It just unfolds. It leads to more

dead ends

and disasters than advanced life. It is part of us just like we are all made

from cosmic

dust. One can alter one's mind to have some perception of a fragment of this

source that

is is contained in us somehow, but only dogma leads one to call this experience

god or

spirit. In the absence of preexisting religious indoctrination, I do not think

the experience

would not characterized thusly. In the daoist i jing, all religious ideas are

considered a

construct of the indoctrinated mind. the true dao has none of this quality at

all.