Guest guest Posted July 3, 2004 Report Share Posted July 3, 2004 A member of this list operates a business prescribing herbs through his website, without any personal contact with the patient, and therefore obviously without having conducted a full diagnosis. The website in question claims to be offering " Chinese medicine " according to the methods of " Traditional " & " TCM " . Email " Consultation " & " prescription " is offered after filling out a web-page inquiry form. No qualifications are available on the website for the practitioner/s, nor their names. Personally, I find this objectionable, and unprofessional. It is surprising to me that this person qualifies to be a member of this list, which I had understood to be a professional forum. Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2004 Report Share Posted July 3, 2004 A couple of years ago the California Board sent us all letters stating that this was a violation of our license. At the time I was being hired to write herb descriptions for a web- site that was going to do just this (sell herbs over the internet). I called the State Board and we had a lengthy discussion. They said I would indeed be skating on thin ice (if not in violation) if my name was used as a reference for the web-site. Since this company is legitimate with many interests and products for TCM they suspended their idea for the herb sales because of this and other both medical and liability concerns. doug , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@o...> wrote: > A member of this list operates a business prescribing herbs through his > website, without any personal contact with the patient, and therefore > obviously without having conducted a full diagnosis. The website in > question claims to be offering " Chinese medicine " according to the > methods of " Traditional " & " TCM " . Email " Consultation " > & " prescription " is offered after filling out a web-page inquiry form. > > No qualifications are available on the website for the practitioner/s, > nor their names. > > Personally, I find this objectionable, and unprofessional. > > It is surprising to me that this person qualifies to be a member of > this list, which I had understood to be a professional forum. > > Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2004 Report Share Posted July 3, 2004 I too had to look into this issue as I was pretty much doing what Rory considered unprofessional conduct. I have since removed the diagnostic portion and just have a few pre-made formulas that are available on-line, but no diagnostic stuff happening. It gets back to that issue of are you a retail outlet for herbs or are you practicing medicine. If you want to practice medicine at the " standard of care " for other acupuncturist/herbalists in the state, then you need to see the patient in person. -al. On Jul 3, 2004, at 2:15 PM, wrote: > A couple of years ago the California Board sent us all letters stating > that this was a > violation of our license. At the time I was being hired to write herb > descriptions for a web- > site that was going to do just this (sell herbs over the internet). I > called the State Board and > we had a lengthy discussion. They said I would indeed be skating on > thin ice (if not in > violation) if my name was used as a reference for the web-site. Since > this company is > legitimate with many interests and products for TCM they suspended > their idea for the > herb sales because of this and other both medical and liability > concerns. > doug > > , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@o...> > wrote: >> A member of this list operates a business prescribing herbs through >> his >> website, without any personal contact with the patient, and therefore >> obviously without having conducted a full diagnosis. The website in >> question claims to be offering " Chinese medicine " according to the >> methods of " Traditional " & " TCM " . Email >> " Consultation " >> & " prescription " is offered after filling out a web-page inquiry form. >> >> No qualifications are available on the website for the practitioner/s, >> nor their names. >> >> Personally, I find this objectionable, and unprofessional. >> >> It is surprising to me that this person qualifies to be a member of >> this list, which I had understood to be a professional forum. >> >> Rory > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, > including board approved continuing education classes, an annual > conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2004 Report Share Posted July 3, 2004 The distinction the state board made was that if you were selling something that was said to be good for a particular issue (but not a particular patient) then it was marginally OK. The closer you get (ironically) to giving an individualized formula for a patient and their particular case then the more you were in violation. doug , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > I too had to look into this issue as I was pretty much doing what Rory > considered unprofessional conduct. > > I have since removed the diagnostic portion and just have a few > pre-made formulas that are available on-line, but no diagnostic stuff > happening. > > It gets back to that issue of are you a retail outlet for herbs or are > you practicing medicine. If you want to practice medicine at the > " standard of care " for other acupuncturist/herbalists in the state, > then you need to see the patient in person. > > -al. > > On Jul 3, 2004, at 2:15 PM, wrote: > > > A couple of years ago the California Board sent us all letters stating > > that this was a > > violation of our license. At the time I was being hired to write herb > > descriptions for a web- > > site that was going to do just this (sell herbs over the internet). I > > called the State Board and > > we had a lengthy discussion. They said I would indeed be skating on > > thin ice (if not in > > violation) if my name was used as a reference for the web-site. Since > > this company is > > legitimate with many interests and products for TCM they suspended > > their idea for the > > herb sales because of this and other both medical and liability > > concerns. > > doug > > > > , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@o...> > > wrote: > >> A member of this list operates a business prescribing herbs through > >> his > >> website, without any personal contact with the patient, and therefore > >> obviously without having conducted a full diagnosis. The website in > >> question claims to be offering " Chinese medicine " according to the > >> methods of " Traditional " & " TCM " . Email > >> " Consultation " > >> & " prescription " is offered after filling out a web-page inquiry form. > >> > >> No qualifications are available on the website for the practitioner/s, > >> nor their names. > >> > >> Personally, I find this objectionable, and unprofessional. > >> > >> It is surprising to me that this person qualifies to be a member of > >> this list, which I had understood to be a professional forum. > >> > >> Rory > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, > > including board approved continuing education classes, an annual > > conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2004 Report Share Posted July 3, 2004 , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > It gets back to that issue of are you a retail outlet for herbs or are > you practicing medicine. If you want to practice medicine at the > " standard of care " for other acupuncturist/herbalists in the state, > then you need to see the patient in person. > This idea of " standard of care " makes me wonder what that means in China, both now and in the past. I have heard many tales of students taking trips to China, making rounds with doctors who see 30 patients in an hours. At 2 minutes per person, what makes up their " standard " ? How much is really necessary. The main benefits to seeing someone in person is getting to feel the pulse and viewing them (pulse, complexion, etc.). Mostly everything else can be lied about by the patient during questioning, intake forms, etc. How irresponsible is it in this country to prescribe herbs based on a thorough history without taking tongue or pulse? At PCOM, the emphasis is clearly on history. The tongue and pulse may or may not confirm the history. Precedence is rarely (I cannot think of an instance in my experience at PCOM) put on tongue and pulse over history. I am not defending the position of website prescribing, but rather trying to hash out the fundamentals involved. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2004 Report Share Posted July 3, 2004 Hey Doug, I'll call your state board distinction and raise you a quote from the horse's mouth. : ) ______________________________ Dear Mr. Stone: In response to your inquiry I offer the following: 1.There is nothing which prohibits you from selling herbs on-line. 2.As long as you aren't engaging in TCM diagnoses and/or prescribing via the Internet or telephone, the Board has no jurisdiction over what you may sell on line. 3. Same as #2, the Board has no issue with you selling herbs on-line. Pursuant to B & P Codes 650 and 4955© you must be very careful how you advertise and what you say to the public (if it's inappropriate, I guarantee we'll hear about it). 4. 4955 defines what action may result from unprofessional conduct, including but not limited to license revocation. Please don' t hesitate to contact me if you require further clarification. Sincerely, Kerry A. Hartsough Enforcement Program Coordinator Consumer Protection Services California Acupuncture Board ______ On Jul 3, 2004, at 3:09 PM, wrote: > The distinction the state board made was that if you were selling > something that was said > to be good for a particular issue (but not a particular patient) then > it was marginally OK. > The closer you get (ironically) to giving an individualized formula > for a patient and their > particular case then the more you were in violation. > > doug > > , Al Stone <alstone@b...> > wrote: >> I too had to look into this issue as I was pretty much doing what Rory >> considered unprofessional conduct. >> >> I have since removed the diagnostic portion and just have a few >> pre-made formulas that are available on-line, but no diagnostic stuff >> happening. >> >> It gets back to that issue of are you a retail outlet for herbs or are >> you practicing medicine. If you want to practice medicine at the >> " standard of care " for other acupuncturist/herbalists in the state, >> then you need to see the patient in person. >> >> -al. >> >> On Jul 3, 2004, at 2:15 PM, wrote: >> >>> A couple of years ago the California Board sent us all letters >>> stating >>> that this was a >>> violation of our license. At the time I was being hired to write herb >>> descriptions for a web- >>> site that was going to do just this (sell herbs over the internet). I >>> called the State Board and >>> we had a lengthy discussion. They said I would indeed be skating on >>> thin ice (if not in >>> violation) if my name was used as a reference for the web-site. Since >>> this company is >>> legitimate with many interests and products for TCM they suspended >>> their idea for the >>> herb sales because of this and other both medical and liability >>> concerns. >>> doug >>> >>> , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@o...> >>> wrote: >>>> A member of this list operates a business prescribing herbs through >>>> his >>>> website, without any personal contact with the patient, and >>>> therefore >>>> obviously without having conducted a full diagnosis. The website in >>>> question claims to be offering " Chinese medicine " according to the >>>> methods of " Traditional " & " TCM " . Email >>>> " Consultation " >>>> & " prescription " is offered after filling out a web-page inquiry >>>> form. >>>> >>>> No qualifications are available on the website for the >>>> practitioner/s, >>>> nor their names. >>>> >>>> Personally, I find this objectionable, and unprofessional. >>>> >>>> It is surprising to me that this person qualifies to be a member of >>>> this list, which I had understood to be a professional forum. >>>> >>>> Rory >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, >>> including board approved continuing education classes, an annual >>> conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. >>> >>> >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2004 Report Share Posted July 3, 2004 This idea of " standard of care " makes me wonder what that means in China, both now and in the past. >>>Its much more of a Pandora's box than that. Standard of care implies a right and wrong treatment. If you can find two TCM dr that would comeup with the same treatment for the same patient then these concepts would make sense. I think you are right in defining standard of care as having some basic required process applied in clinical practice. Seeing 30 patients per hour would be considered mal practice in any western standard of care of any medical profession except ours. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2004 Report Share Posted July 6, 2004 Hi Rory, I am in complete agreement with you on this, and with all the FDA's new regulations and restrictions, I think it would be our profession's best interests for us to police ourselves more and present a more professional front and realistic medical practice image. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. What can we do? A member of this list operates a business prescribing herbs through his website, without any personal contact with the patient, and therefore obviously without having conducted a full diagnosis. The website in question claims to be offering " Chinese medicine " according to the methods of " Traditional " & " TCM " . Email " Consultation " & " prescription " is offered after filling out a web-page inquiry form. No qualifications are available on the website for the practitioner/s, nor their names. Personally, I find this objectionable, and unprofessional. It is surprising to me that this person qualifies to be a member of this list, which I had understood to be a professional forum. Rory Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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