Guest guest Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 I was wondering what others thought about herbs that are said to enter the SJ channel? For example, in Bensky's MM, he only lists a few (Zhi zi, chai hu, xiang fu - come to mind). Where other sources (of course) list other herbs like mu xiang as entering the SJ. Other sources list herb functions as treating the SJ (organ) or SJ problems and do not list it as a (SJ) channel entered... What does it mean to enter the SJ? Does any herb that deals with water metabolism entering/ treating the SJ? If so that would be a lot of herbs that would enter the SJ… Xiang fu is said to spread through the whole body (in all directions) hence maybe moving though the SJ??? But chai hu? Zhi zi is said to treat all 3 burners hence the analogy of the SJ, but other prominent MM sources do not list it as entering the SJ… All this probably just reinforces the idea that it is all BS anyway, but just curious… Very confusing to me… insights…? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 , " " <@h...> wrote: > I was wondering what others thought about herbs that are said to enter > the SJ channel? For example, in Bensky's MM, he only lists a few (Zhi One of PCOM's herbology and OM teachers stated that for herbal purposes, the SJ could be likened to KI yang. I've kept that in the back of my mind, not quite sure knowing what to do with that tidbit. Also of note, the SJ pulse position is often referred to as the KI yang position. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 , " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...> wrote: > , " " > <@h...> wrote: > > I was wondering what others thought about herbs that are said to enter > > the SJ channel? For example, in Bensky's MM, he only lists a few (Zhi > > One of PCOM's herbology and OM teachers stated that for herbal > purposes, the SJ could be likened to KI yang. I've kept that in the > back of my mind, not quite sure knowing what to do with that tidbit. > Also of note, the SJ pulse position is often referred to as the KI > yang position. > > Brian C. Allen Brian, Thanx for the input. Although, this is interesting, I am having a hard time applying this to my herbal understanding… I.e. the herbs that Benksy classifies as entering the SJ (Zhi zi, chai hu, and xiang fu) have anything to do with kidney yang... So maybe it would be a worthwhile question to this prof to explain their viewpoint, who is it BTW? -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 Hi Brian and Jason Just a thought. Could it be that these herbs clear obstructions in the SJ and therefore facilitate the activity, flow and reach of Kidney Yang? Zhi zi--clear pathogenic heat in all three jiao. Heat can serve as an obstruction just like phlegm, damp, cold, blood. Heat is the insubstantial one of the bunch, like yang itself. Also, of course, zhi zi reaches all three jiaos. Chai hu resolves shao yang disorders so has an effect on venting pathogens both to the exterior and interior (for elimination via lower jiao) removing obstructions to flow of yang. Also spreads liver qi and resolves constraint--does this help K yang do it's job with less effort? It does this while helping to " raise the yang qi " , again assisting yang and carrying it to the upper jiao. Xiang fu is more mysterious. Other than the usual regulation of qi and thereby facilitating yang, I can't see why it would be entering the SJ any moreso than any other herb in the category which did the same. Just some museings. Please take apart at will!!! Thanks, Shanna , " " <@h...> wrote: > , " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...> wrote: > > , " " > > <@h...> wrote: > > > I was wondering what others thought about herbs that are said to enter > > > the SJ channel? For example, in Bensky's MM, he only lists a few (Zhi > > > > One of PCOM's herbology and OM teachers stated that for herbal > > purposes, the SJ could be likened to KI yang. I've kept that in the > > back of my mind, not quite sure knowing what to do with that tidbit. > > Also of note, the SJ pulse position is often referred to as the KI > > yang position. > > > > Brian C. Allen > > Brian, > > Thanx for the input. Although, this is interesting, I am having a hard > time applying this to my herbal understanding… I.e. the herbs that > Benksy classifies as entering the SJ (Zhi zi, chai hu, and xiang fu) > have anything to do with kidney yang... So maybe it would be a > worthwhile question to this prof to explain their viewpoint, who is it > BTW? > > -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 , " shannahickle " <shannahickle> wrote: > Hi Brian and Jason > > Just a thought. Could it be that these herbs clear obstructions in > the SJ and therefore facilitate the activity, flow and reach of > Kidney Yang? Zhi zi--clear pathogenic heat in all three jiao. Heat > can serve as an obstruction just like phlegm, damp, cold, blood. > Heat is the insubstantial one of the bunch, like yang itself. Also, > of course, zhi zi reaches all three jiaos. Chai hu resolves shao > yang disorders so has an effect on venting pathogens both to the > exterior and interior (for elimination via lower jiao) removing > obstructions to flow of yang. Also spreads liver qi and resolves > constraint--does this help K yang do it's job with less effort? It > does this while helping to " raise the yang qi " , again assisting yang > and carrying it to the upper jiao. Xiang fu is more mysterious. > Other than the usual regulation of qi and thereby facilitating yang, > I can't see why it would be entering the SJ any moreso than any > other herb in the category which did the same. Just some museings. > Please take apart at will!!! Interesting ideas: 1st - do you have a source for the idea that heat can block the function of kindey yang function? 2nd- There are so many other herbs that can not only directly affect kindey yang but eliminate substantial blockages, that do not enter the SJ, so I feel this is somewhat of a stretch. IF it was just about removing heat and blockages, there are much stronger herbs that do this. The question is why these? (I don't think there is an answer...) 3rd - if chai hu assists kindey yang by raising clear sp yang (which I am unsure how this works) why wouldn't huangqi, sheng ma, ge gen etc also enter the SJ... There seems to be too many inconsistensie for this to work, but do you have further comments>? -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 On Jul 12, 2004, at 8:25 PM, wrote: > 1st - do you have a source for the idea that heat can block the > function of kindey yang function? Perhaps this is Yang2 Jue2 (Bensky: " Yang or hot-type collapse " ) which is addressed with Si Ni San? Heat enters the interior where it stagnates the Yang Qi. -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. -Adlai Stevenson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 On Jul 11, 2004, at 1:01 PM, wrote: > I was wondering what others thought about herbs that are said to enter > the SJ channel? Dr. Tiende Yang's opinion on this is that because Zhi Zi and Xiang Fu's actions are so systemic and widespread, they are said to enter all three Jiao's, but they don't specifically have an effect on fluid pathways or the Yuan source Qi's distribution (both San Jiao functions). Chai Hu may include the San Jiao as the arm aspect of the Shao Yang (along with the GB) however its functions are mostly lifting and dispersing which are middle and upper Jiao functions. -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. -Adlai Stevenson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 , " " <@h...> wrote: > , " shannahickle " > <shannahickle> wrote: > > Hi Brian and Jason > > > > Just a thought. Could it be that these herbs clear obstructions in > > the SJ and therefore facilitate the activity, flow and reach of > > Kidney Yang? Zhi zi--clear pathogenic heat in all three jiao. Heat > > can serve as an obstruction just like phlegm, damp, cold, blood. > > Heat is the insubstantial one of the bunch, like yang itself. Also, > > of course, zhi zi reaches all three jiaos. Chai hu resolves shao > > yang disorders so has an effect on venting pathogens both to the > > exterior and interior (for elimination via lower jiao) removing > > obstructions to flow of yang. Also spreads liver qi and resolves > > constraint--does this help K yang do it's job with less effort? It > > does this while helping to " raise the yang qi " , again assisting yang > > and carrying it to the upper jiao. Xiang fu is more mysterious. > > Other than the usual regulation of qi and thereby facilitating yang, > > I can't see why it would be entering the SJ any moreso than any > > other herb in the category which did the same. Just some museings. > > Please take apart at will!!! > > Interesting ideas: > > 1st - do you have a source for the idea that heat can block the > function of kindey yang function? see Al Stone's suggestion. Of course, Si Ni San does not contain any substantial heat clearing herbs, it clears constrained heat by relieving constraint using Chai hu, Zhi shi and bai shao and gan cao to soften liver and support spleen function/harmonize. Zhi Zi clears heat and heat can consume qi (a subsidiary of yang) lessening it's ability to perfuse when heat is ubiquitous (in all three jiaos)???? > 2nd- There are so many other herbs that can not only directly affect > kindey yang but eliminate substantial blockages, that do not enter the > SJ, so I feel this is somewhat of a stretch. IF it was just about > removing heat and blockages, there are much stronger herbs that do > this. The question is why these? (I don't think there is an answer...) In the case of Zhi Zi, it is superior to others in addressing SJ because it addresses all three jiaos. As for Chai Hu, perhaps it's function is related to the shao yang pivot role. Clearing pathogens there and venting to both the exterior and interior simultaneously addresses upper and lower and it relieves constraint in the liver (middle and also in some sources considered lower jiao) and raises Spleen yang (middle) which is supported by Kidney yang, without which it cannot T & T. So all three jiaos are affected, blockages removed and free flow facilitated.??? > 3rd - if chai hu assists kindey yang by raising clear sp yang (which I > am unsure how this works) why wouldn't huangqi, sheng ma, ge gen etc > also enter the SJ... These have no effect on the lower jiao. Sheng ma and Ge gen facilitate the flow of yang by clearing pathogens at the surface only. Huang Qi is only a tonic, not a remover of pathogens. I think of it as strengthening the ability of the Sp to send clear yang up while Chai Hu facilitates rising by relieving constraint in the liver and taking stress off the Spleen instead of actually " pushing " the yang qi up. The SJ channel/organ isn't usually thought about in terms of tonification directly that I know of. It is a place for yang qi and fluids to flow and travel???? > There seems to be too many inconsistensie for this to work, but do you > have further comments>? These are my comments for what they're worth. Good discussion. You're making me think real hard now!! More refinement/comments would be welcomed. Regards, Shanna > > -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 , " shannahickle " <shannahickle> > > > > 1st - do you have a source for the idea that heat can block the > > function of kindey yang function? > > see Al Stone's suggestion. Of course, Si Ni San does not contain any > substantial heat clearing herbs, it clears constrained heat by > relieving constraint using Chai hu, Zhi shi and bai shao and gan cao > to soften liver and support spleen function/harmonize. So why doesn't zhi shi then enter the SJ? – I don't think si ni san is an example of clearing heat by the SJ. I also don't the yang is necessarily kidney yang. Yes kidney is the mother of yang. But basically what is meant, IMO, is only that the natural warmth in constrained and not getting to the finger tips and creating internal heat signs. I would have a hard time saying that kidney yang function is weakened. This formula is really about just opening up the liver and dispersing constrained heat. Zhi Zi clears > heat and heat can consume qi (a subsidiary of yang) lessening it's > ability to perfuse when heat is ubiquitous (in all three jiaos)???? Again I don't see any evidence for this idea… > > > > 2nd- There are so many other herbs that can not only directly > affect > > kindey yang but eliminate substantial blockages, that do not enter > the > > SJ, so I feel this is somewhat of a stretch. IF it was just about > > removing heat and blockages, there are much stronger herbs that do > > this. The question is why these? (I don't think there is an > answer...) > > In the case of Zhi Zi, it is superior to others in addressing SJ > because it addresses all three jiaos. So for an herb to work on the SJ it must enter all 3 jiaos..? Well that is an idea, but like I said this does not explain many of the other herbs like mu xiang and chai hu…. As for Chai Hu, perhaps it's > function is related to the shao yang pivot role. Clearing pathogens > there and venting to both the exterior and interior simultaneously What do you mean vent to the interior? > addresses upper and lower and it relieves constraint in the liver > (middle and also in some sources considered lower jiao) and raises > Spleen yang (middle) which is supported by Kidney yang, without > which it cannot T & T. So all three jiaos are affected, I think this is a stretch … blockages > removed and free flow facilitated.??? Like I said this blockage idea is suspect.. There are other herbs that definitely remove substantial blocked (much more so) that do not enter the SJ. > > > > 3rd - if chai hu assists kindey yang by raising clear sp yang > (which I > > am unsure how this works) why wouldn't huangqi, sheng ma, ge gen > etc > > also enter the SJ... > > These have no effect on the lower jiao. Sheng ma and Ge gen > facilitate the flow of yang by clearing pathogens at the surface > only. Not true at all… Huang Qi is only a tonic, not a remover of pathogens. I think > of it as strengthening the ability of the Sp to send clear yang up > while Chai Hu facilitates rising by relieving constraint in the > liver and taking stress off the Spleen instead of actually " pushing " > the yang qi up. Unsure what you are saying here… I like some of your thought, but still not clear in my mind… -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 , " " <@h...> wrote: > , " shannahickle " > <shannahickle> > > > > > > 1st - do you have a source for the idea that heat can block the > > > function of kindey yang function? > > > > see Al Stone's suggestion. Of course, Si Ni San does not contain any > > substantial heat clearing herbs, it clears constrained heat by > > relieving constraint using Chai hu, Zhi shi and bai shao and gan cao > > to soften liver and support spleen function/harmonize. > > So why doesn't zhi shi then enter the SJ? Zhi Shi is a deputy, not the chief which is Chai Hu. IMHO, I think this is an example of clearing heat by SJ as " Frigid Extremities " io Si Ni is a disease of the upper and lower extremities caused by Qi stagnation in the middle (Lv overacting on Sp). By facilitating the middle the qi/blood/yang can travel to the upper and lower. Zhi Shi does not have the shao yang pivot connection because it is known to address mostly diseases in the middle/lower jiaos. Chai Hu is the key with respect to SJ function. It is facilitating the flow to all three jiaos because it can resolve shao yang disorders which are half interior/half exterior. – I don't think si ni san is > an example of clearing heat by the SJ. I also don't the yang is > necessarily kidney yang. Yes kidney is the mother of yang. But > basically what is meant, IMO, is only that the natural warmth in > constrained and not getting to the finger tips and creating internal > heat signs. I would have a hard time saying that kidney yang function > is weakened. Right. Not weakened, only constrained. SJ is about free flow, not deficiency of yang qi. This formula is really about just opening up the liver > and dispersing constrained heat. ....so that Yang Qi can flow freely. > > Zhi Zi clears > > heat and heat can consume qi (a subsidiary of yang) lessening it's > > ability to perfuse when heat is ubiquitous (in all three jiaos)???? > > Again I don't see any evidence for this idea… Are you questioning that " heat can consume qi " ? Remember that heat is not Yang Qi but is a Yang Pathogen. I'm afraid I can't quote the classics but according to Statements of Fact in Traditional Chinese Medicine pg. 75, Flaws has translated from somewhere that " Vigorous Fire eats (i.e., consumes) qi " . > > > > > > > > 2nd- There are so many other herbs that can not only directly > > affect > > > kindey yang but eliminate substantial blockages, that do not enter > > the > > > SJ, so I feel this is somewhat of a stretch. IF it was just about > > > removing heat and blockages, there are much stronger herbs that do > > > this. The question is why these? (I don't think there is an > > answer...) > > > > In the case of Zhi Zi, it is superior to others in addressing SJ > > because it addresses all three jiaos. > > So for an herb to work on the SJ it must enter all 3 jiaos..? Well > that is an idea, but like I said this does not explain many of the > other herbs like mu xiang and chai hu…. > > As for Chai Hu, perhaps it's > > function is related to the shao yang pivot role. Clearing pathogens > > there and venting to both the exterior and interior simultaneously > > What do you mean vent to the interior? When there is a pathogen stuck in the Shao Yang level, the mechanism by which they are released is harmonizing. By harmonizing the three jiaos, the herbs take what can still be released to the exterior to the exterior and those which need to be eliminated via stool and urine to these routes. It works from the middle out in both directions simultaneously to save the person from dragging the pathogens which are closer to the surface further to the interior or weakening the basal energies by trying to expel something to the exterior which is clearly needing to be eliminated via the lower jiao. This is the beauty of the Shao Yang concept. > > > addresses upper and lower and it relieves constraint in the liver > > (middle and also in some sources considered lower jiao) and raises > > Spleen yang (middle) which is supported by Kidney yang, without > > which it cannot T & T. So all three jiaos are affected, > > I think this is a stretch … What is a stretch? Kidney Yang support is needed for the Spleen Yang to do its job of Transporting (raising clear Yang is an act of " transporting " ) and Transforming. > > blockages > > removed and free flow facilitated.??? > > Like I said this blockage idea is suspect.. There are other herbs that > definitely remove substantial blocked (much more so) that do not enter > the SJ. Exactly, they do not " touch " or enter the San Jiao. Therefore, they only relieve blockages in the areas they affect and only facilitate the return of Yang qi to those areas. > > > > > > > > 3rd - if chai hu assists kindey yang by raising clear sp yang > > (which I > > > am unsure how this works) why wouldn't huangqi, sheng ma, ge gen > > etc > > > also enter the SJ... > > > > These have no effect on the lower jiao. Sheng ma and Ge gen > > facilitate the flow of yang by clearing pathogens at the surface > > only. > > Not true at all… Not true? Can you elaborate? > > Huang Qi is only a tonic, not a remover of pathogens. I think > > of it as strengthening the ability of the Sp to send clear yang up > > while Chai Hu facilitates rising by relieving constraint in the > > liver and taking stress off the Spleen instead of actually " pushing " > > the yang qi up. > > Unsure what you are saying here… What I am saying is that Chai Hu is not a tonic. It only releases the constraint and inhibition of Yang Qi by pathogens. Huang Qi is a tonic and therefore strengthens weak rising abilities. Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang combines Huang Qi, Sheng Ma and Chai Hu to address both the issue of weak qi raising and constrained qi blocking not allowing raising. Sheng Ma is sweet (tonify, harmonize, moisten) and acrid (dispersing and moving) so it sort of balances Chai Hu which is bitter (draining and drying) and acrid. Huang Qi, like I said, is tonic and sweet. These work in harmony. > I like some of your thought, but still not clear in my mind… > > -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 I have to say that I think this discussion is getting so far from the original question that it is becoming futile.. The logic / theoretical constructions to support the argument are becoming more and more suspect. You are somehow saying that si ni san because it disperses constrained heat somehow enters the SJ . This you are saying is because heat can obstruct the kidney yang function which is related to the SJ… There is so much web weaving I can't even follow it anymore. I would like to see just some basic theoretical quotes to support your views, but for starters. 1) zhi shi & chai hu work together to disperse this constrained heat, you cannot say the chai hu does this without zhi shi, therefore the fact that zhi shi doesn't also enter the chai hu is suspect. (if this is why chai hu actually enters the sj, which I don't think so.) But more importantly I just question the whole idea that dispersing constrained heat is evidence that some herb enters the SJ. Furthermore, in this pattern the constrained heat inhibits the warming function (yang) to the fingertips, but there are many other constrained heat patterns that are treated with other herbs like i.e. mu dan pi, and these are not said to enter the SJ. The whole premise of this argument is that somehow heat (insubstantial pathogen) is obstructing kidney yang function which is linked to the SJ.. This is, IMO, suspect. Clearing heat to allow kidney yang function to operate is not a documented treatment principle. (if so lets see it)… IF clearing heat was, then there are other herbs that should be listed as SJ herbs. IF it was really about something obstructing kidney yang function (linked to SJ) then any herb that opened up this ability of kidney yang function to flow would be said to enter the SJ. This is not the case. Herbs that clear excess cold in the lower would be said to enter to SJ with this reasoning. Chai hu is not documented IMO at all at assisting in kidney yang function. I think this whole line of reasoning is completely suspect, and I have not seen it documented in Chinese literature. > > Zhi Shi is a deputy, not the chief which is Chai Hu. IMHO, I think > this is an example of clearing heat by SJ as " Frigid Extremities " io > Si Ni is a disease of the upper and lower extremities caused by Qi > stagnation in the middle (Lv overacting on Sp). By facilitating the > middle the qi/blood/yang can travel to the upper and lower. Zhi Shi > does not have the shao yang pivot connection because it is known to > address mostly diseases in the middle/lower jiaos. Chai Hu is the > key with respect to SJ function. It is facilitating the flow to all > three jiaos because it can resolve shao yang disorders which are > half interior/half exterior. The shao yang pivot has nothing to do with the function of chai hu in this situation. Chai is ascending, zhi shi is descending to disperse constrained heat, they work together. Chai hu is not functioning by itself. I don't know where you are getting this idea that chai hu because it resolves shao yang disorders is relevant here. That is in xiao chai hu tang! You are mixing apples and oranges. > > – I don't think si ni san is > > an example of clearing heat by the SJ. I also don't the yang is > > necessarily kidney yang. Yes kidney is the mother of yang. But > > basically what is meant, IMO, is only that the natural warmth in > > constrained and not getting to the finger tips and creating > internal > > heat signs. I would have a hard time saying that kidney yang > function > > is weakened. > > Right. Not weakened, only constrained. SJ is about free flow, not > deficiency of yang qi. Like I said there are more documented pathogens that constrain kidney yang qi.. Heat is not. Only in si ni san… and clearing these obstructions is not actually doing anything to the SJ!!!! When you say an herb enters a channel or organ it enters that organ or channel!!! You do not say that an herb enters a channel/ organ because it indirectly helps another organ function. I.e. an herb that moves liver qi to smooth constraint thereby allowing the spleen to function properly does not (or is not said to) enter the SPLEEN Channel. This is circular logic. With this logic you can justify any herb entering any organ / channel, because everything in Chinese medicine is connected. I feel this discussion is one big circle. > > This formula is really about just opening up the liver > > and dispersing constrained heat. > > ...so that Yang Qi can flow freely. > > > > Zhi Zi clears > > > heat and heat can consume qi (a subsidiary of yang) lessening > it's > > > ability to perfuse when heat is ubiquitous (in all three > jiaos)???? > > > > Again I don't see any evidence for this idea… > > Are you questioning that " heat can consume qi " ? Remember that heat > is not Yang Qi but is a Yang Pathogen. I'm afraid I can't quote the > classics but according to Statements of Fact in Traditional Chinese > Medicine pg. 75, Flaws has translated from somewhere that " Vigorous > Fire eats (i.e., consumes) qi " . Of course I am not saying that the classic suwen chapter 5 quote that " vigorous fire eats original qi " is false… I am questioned this 4 fold logical sequence. You are clearing heat & #61664; heat normally consumes qi = & #61664; qi is related to yang & #61664; yang is related to the SJ & #61664; therefore= this herb that clears heat SOMEHOW???? Enters the SJ… come on…. This is IMO silly… It is much more plausible that this herb clears heat from all three burners (throughout the whole body) (my original idea) this is why it is said to enter the SJ… but this has nothing to do with kidney yang qi, or strange heat obstructions of the kidney yang function… > > When there is a pathogen stuck in the Shao Yang level, the mechanism > by which they are released is harmonizing. By harmonizing the three > jiaos, the herbs take what can still be released to the exterior to > the exterior and those which need to be eliminated via stool and > urine to these routes. It works from the middle out in both > directions simultaneously to save the person from dragging the > pathogens which are closer to the surface further to the interior or > weakening the basal energies by trying to expel something to the > exterior which is clearly needing to be eliminated via the lower > jiao. This is the beauty of the Shao Yang concept. This whole thing is suspect IMO, in the relation to si ni san or chai hu individually, again shaoyang disease is not treated by chai hu (by itself, or sinisan)… what herbs send things through the stool , which to urine, where is this coming from… How does harmonizing the three jiaos all of sudden start sending the pathogen out every which way but loose. Herbs do specific things and discharge pathogens in specific ways. The word vent means outward. You do not vent a `pathogen to the interior', period. Please check the terminology and theory of the herbs. Sorry for the doubt and complaints with the discussion. I appreciate this, but I am too tired to go through the below issues. Maybe someone can quote some sources (Chinese or reliable English) instead of just making up how things might be. I think because of this circular medicine it is real to spin a web, and this above web presented might make sense to others, just not to me... -Jason > > > > > addresses upper and lower and it relieves constraint in the > liver > > > (middle and also in some sources considered lower jiao) and > raises > > > Spleen yang (middle) which is supported by Kidney yang, without > > > which it cannot T & T. So all three jiaos are affected, > > > > I think this is a stretch … > > What is a stretch? Kidney Yang support is needed for the Spleen Yang > to do its job of Transporting (raising clear Yang is an act > of " transporting " ) and Transforming. > > > > blockages > > > removed and free flow facilitated.??? > > > > Like I said this blockage idea is suspect.. There are other herbs > that > > definitely remove substantial blocked (much more so) that do not > enter > > the SJ. > > Exactly, they do not " touch " or enter the San Jiao. Therefore, they > only relieve blockages in the areas they affect and only facilitate > the return of Yang qi to those areas. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3rd - if chai hu assists kindey yang by raising clear sp yang > > > (which I > > > > am unsure how this works) why wouldn't huangqi, sheng ma, ge > gen > > > etc > > > > also enter the SJ... > > > > > > These have no effect on the lower jiao. Sheng ma and Ge gen > > > facilitate the flow of yang by clearing pathogens at the surface > > > only. > > > > Not true at all… > > Not true? Can you elaborate? > > > > > > Huang Qi is only a tonic, not a remover of pathogens. I think > > > of it as strengthening the ability of the Sp to send clear yang > up > > > while Chai Hu facilitates rising by relieving constraint in the > > > liver and taking stress off the Spleen instead of > actually " pushing " > > > the yang qi up. > > > > Unsure what you are saying here… > > What I am saying is that Chai Hu is not a tonic. It only releases > the constraint and inhibition of Yang Qi by pathogens. Huang Qi is a > tonic and therefore strengthens weak rising abilities. Bu Zhong Yi > Qi Tang combines Huang Qi, Sheng Ma and Chai Hu to address both the > issue of weak qi raising and constrained qi blocking not allowing > raising. Sheng Ma is sweet (tonify, harmonize, moisten) and acrid > (dispersing and moving) so it sort of balances Chai Hu which is > bitter (draining and drying) and acrid. Huang Qi, like I said, is > tonic and sweet. These work in harmony. > > > > I like some of your thought, but still not clear in my mind… > > > > -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 , " " <@h...> wrote: > I have to say that I think this discussion is getting so far from the > original question that it is becoming futile.. The logic / theoretical > constructions to support the argument are becoming more and more suspect. > > > You are somehow saying that si ni san because it disperses constrained > heat somehow enters the SJ . I (along with CM physicians for thousands of years before us) said chai hu enters the SJ--not si ni san. This you are saying is because heat can > obstruct the kidney yang function which is related to the SJ… You said SJ and Kidney yang function were supposedly related too. Again, the SJ is the place for free flow of Yang Qi and fluids. Do you disagree? There is > so much web weaving I can't even follow it anymore. I would like to > see just some basic theoretical quotes to support your views, but for > starters. > 1) zhi shi & chai hu work together to disperse this constrained heat, > you cannot say the chai hu does this without zhi shi, therefore the > fact that zhi shi doesn't also enter the chai hu is suspect. (if this > is why chai hu actually enters the sj, which I don't think so.) Chai hu does not enter any organs in the lower jiao which Zhi Shi does. They do work in concert. > > But more importantly I just question the whole idea that dispersing > constrained heat is evidence that some herb enters the SJ. I never said that because something disperses constrained heat it automatically enters the SJ. I am working off the knowledge which has been handed down to us that Chai Hu disperses constrained heat and enters the SJ which makes it somehow " special " among other herbs that release constrained heat. I'm just trying to discuss your very well put and interesting question about herbs which enter the SJ and why they might be thought to do that. Again, I was not the one who got the idea that these herbs enter the SJ. I am only defending the masters here with what logic I can come up with according to my training in TCM thinking. Rarely do the classics/masters just come right out and tell you " why " about some complicated concept. They give you the basic information and expect you to figure it out with experience and right TCM thinking. > Furthermore, in this pattern the constrained heat inhibits the warming > function (yang) to the fingertips, but there are many other > constrained heat patterns that are treated with other herbs like i.e. > mu dan pi, and these are not said to enter the SJ. Mu Dan Pi addresses xu heat in the lower jiao. Nowhere is it purported to address heat in the upper jiao or shao yang pivot. That's why the ancient forefathers never suggested it entered the SJ. > > The whole premise of this argument is that somehow heat (insubstantial > pathogen) is obstructing kidney yang function which is linked to the > SJ.. This is, IMO, suspect. Clearing heat to allow kidney yang > function to operate is not a documented treatment principle. (if so > lets see it)… Ok. In Bensy's Formulas and Strategies under Si Ni San Bensky says, " This is yang- or hot-type collapse (yang jue), which is most commonly due to heat entering the interior where it constrains the yang qi. This inhibits the spreading of yang qi to the extremities, causing cold fingers and toes (in contrast to devastated yang, where the entire limb is cold), and a warm body. " IF clearing heat was, then there are other herbs that > should be listed as SJ herbs. IF it was really about something > obstructing kidney yang function (linked to SJ) then any herb that > opened up this ability of kidney yang function to flow would be said > to enter the SJ. This is not the case. Herbs that clear excess cold > in the lower would be said to enter to SJ with this reasoning. Hmmm. No, I think they would be said to enter the lower burner. They do not address Si Ni which includes upper (fingers) and lower (toes) burners (via clearing heat at the middle). Again, Chai hu alone can do this. Si Ni San without Chai Hu is not Si Ni San. Possibly one could substitute something else for Zhi Shi but not Chai Hu IMHO. Chai > hu is not documented IMO at all at assisting in kidney yang function. By " yang qi " Bensky may talking about Wei which warms the extremities. Wei Qi is the Yang aspect of Ying and Wei. The SJ distributes Original Qi including Ying and Wei and " lets them out " accoring to Maciocia in Foundations of . > I think this whole line of reasoning is completely suspect, and I > have not seen it documented in Chinese literature. > > > > > Zhi Shi is a deputy, not the chief which is Chai Hu. IMHO, I think > > this is an example of clearing heat by SJ as " Frigid Extremities " io > > Si Ni is a disease of the upper and lower extremities caused by Qi > > stagnation in the middle (Lv overacting on Sp). By facilitating the > > middle the qi/blood/yang can travel to the upper and lower. Zhi Shi > > does not have the shao yang pivot connection because it is known to > > address mostly diseases in the middle/lower jiaos. Chai Hu is the > > key with respect to SJ function. It is facilitating the flow to all > > three jiaos because it can resolve shao yang disorders which are > > half interior/half exterior. > > The shao yang pivot has nothing to do with the function of chai hu in > this situation. Chai is ascending, zhi shi is descending to disperse > constrained heat, they work together. Chai hu is not functioning by > itself. I don't know where you are getting this idea that chai hu > because it resolves shao yang disorders is relevant here. That is in > xiao chai hu tang! You are mixing apples and oranges. > > > > > – I don't think si ni san is > > > an example of clearing heat by the SJ. I also don't the yang is > > > necessarily kidney yang. Yes kidney is the mother of yang. But > > > basically what is meant, IMO, is only that the natural warmth Could you explain " natural warmth " in TCM terms and from from where this originates? in > > > constrained and not getting to the finger tips and creating > > internal > > > heat signs. I would have a hard time saying that kidney yang > > function > > > is weakened. > > > > Right. Not weakened, only constrained. SJ is about free flow, not > > deficiency of yang qi. > > Like I said there are more documented pathogens that constrain kidney > yang qi.. Heat is not. Only in si ni san… and clearing these > obstructions is not actually doing anything to the SJ!!!! When you > say an herb enters a channel or organ it enters that organ or > channel!!! You do not say that an herb enters a channel/ organ because > it indirectly helps another organ function. I.e. an herb that moves > liver qi to smooth constraint thereby allowing the spleen to function > properly does not (or is not said to) enter the SPLEEN Channel. This > is circular logic. With this logic you can justify any herb entering > any organ / channel, because everything in Chinese medicine is > connected. I feel this discussion is one big circle. I see the difference here to be the fact that all these SJ herbs can affect either the upper, middle and lower jiaos directly (Zhi Zi) or interior/exterior (Chai Hu) or facilitate flow in whole body (Xiang Fu). The region covered by " interior/exterior " by definition would include all three jiaos as what is left? > > > > > This formula is really about just opening up the liver > > > and dispersing constrained heat. > > > > ...so that Yang Qi can flow freely. > > > > > > Zhi Zi clears > > > > heat and heat can consume qi (a subsidiary of yang) lessening > > it's > > > > ability to perfuse when heat is ubiquitous (in all three > > jiaos)???? > > > > > > Again I don't see any evidence for this idea… > > > > Are you questioning that " heat can consume qi " ? Remember that heat > > is not Yang Qi but is a Yang Pathogen. I'm afraid I can't quote the > > classics but according to Statements of Fact in Traditional Chinese > > Medicine pg. 75, Flaws has translated from somewhere that " Vigorous > > Fire eats (i.e., consumes) qi " . > > Of course I am not saying that the classic suwen chapter 5 quote that > " vigorous fire eats original qi " is false… I am questioned this 4 fold > logical sequence. You are clearing heat & #61664; heat normally consumes qi = > & #61664; > qi is related to yang & #61664; yang is related to the SJ & #61664; therefore= > this > herb that clears heat SOMEHOW???? Enters the SJ… come on…. This is > IMO silly… It is much more plausible that this herb clears heat from > all three burners (throughout the whole body) (my original idea) this > is why it is said to enter the SJ… but this has nothing to do with > kidney yang qi, or strange heat obstructions of the kidney yang function… As to " strange heat obstructions of the Kidney yang function " , what is really being blocked in Si Ni San Syndrome is Wei Qi which is the warming and defending aspect. According to Maciocia, " Defensive Qi originates from the Essence and Original Qi and is transformed from Kidney Yang. " When the flow of Wei is blocked by interior heat, it cannot flow to the outermost reaches. Thus Kidney Yang is unable to fulfill its true and complete function of transforming to Wei Qi. The SJ is what makes or doesn't make this Wei Qi available to the Lungs, which then distributes it to the skin and muscles of the whole body. > > > > > When there is a pathogen stuck in the Shao Yang level, the mechanism > > by which they are released is harmonizing. By harmonizing the three > > jiaos, the herbs take what can still be released to the exterior to > > the exterior and those which need to be eliminated via stool and > > urine to these routes. It works from the middle out in both > > directions simultaneously to save the person from dragging the > > pathogens which are closer to the surface further to the interior or > > weakening the basal energies by trying to expel something to the > > exterior which is clearly needing to be eliminated via the lower > > jiao. This is the beauty of the Shao Yang concept. > > This whole thing is suspect IMO, in the relation to si ni san or chai > hu individually, again shaoyang disease is not treated by chai hu (by > itself, or sinisan)… Again, Bensky Materia Medica: " Chai Hu....Resolves lesser yang disorders... " Now we are talking about Xiao Chai Hu Tang. Chai Hu is the only herb in this formula said to release Shao Yang disorders. SJ is a Shao Yang organ/channel. I think this is germane. what herbs send things through the stool Zhi Shi, Da Huang, etc. Where do you think internal pathogens go when they are drained? which > to urine, Mu Tong, Che Qian Zi, Qu Mai, etc.... where is this coming from… How does harmonizing the three > jiaos all of sudden start sending the pathogen out every which way but > loose. According to Maciocia, " The Yellow Emperor's Classic variously describes the function of the Triple Burner as 'opening up', 'discharging qi', 'letting qi out'. Malfunctions of the Triple Burner are variously described as 'not flowing smoothly', 'over- flowing', or 'being blocked'. In practice this means that an impairment of the Triple Burner function will manifest as a blockage of the various types of qi or fluids in the three stages. " I take this to mean that if the SJ is not functioning properly, not only do healthy qi and fluids become blocked, but the elimination of pathogens also becomes impaired weather through the sweat pores, urine or stool. The pathogens are retained and begin to grow in power. They must be eliminated via a healthy SJ function. That does not mean that one must always address the SJ--free flow may not be an issue. Herbs do specific things and discharge pathogens in specific > ways. The word vent means outward. You do not vent a `pathogen to > the interior', period. Please check the terminology and theory of the > herbs. My apologies. You are right. One must drain from the interior. > > Sorry for the doubt and complaints with the discussion. I appreciate > this, but I am too tired to go through the below issues. Maybe > someone can quote some sources (Chinese or reliable English) instead > of just making up how things might be. I think because of this > circular medicine it is real to spin a web, and this above web > presented might make sense to others, just not to me... Sorry I made you tired Jason. These types of discussions I find extremely invigorating. Shanna > > -Jason > > > > > > > > addresses upper and lower and it relieves constraint in the > > liver > > > > (middle and also in some sources considered lower jiao) and > > raises > > > > Spleen yang (middle) which is supported by Kidney yang, without > > > > which it cannot T & T. So all three jiaos are affected, > > > > > > I think this is a stretch … > > > > What is a stretch? Kidney Yang support is needed for the Spleen Yang > > to do its job of Transporting (raising clear Yang is an act > > of " transporting " ) and Transforming. > > > > > > blockages > > > > removed and free flow facilitated.??? > > > > > > Like I said this blockage idea is suspect.. There are other herbs > > that > > > definitely remove substantial blocked (much more so) that do not > > enter > > > the SJ. > > > > Exactly, they do not " touch " or enter the San Jiao. Therefore, they > > only relieve blockages in the areas they affect and only facilitate > > the return of Yang qi to those areas. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3rd - if chai hu assists kindey yang by raising clear sp yang > > > > (which I > > > > > am unsure how this works) why wouldn't huangqi, sheng ma, ge > > gen > > > > etc > > > > > also enter the SJ... > > > > > > > > These have no effect on the lower jiao. Sheng ma and Ge gen > > > > facilitate the flow of yang by clearing pathogens at the surface > > > > only. > > > > > > Not true at all… > > > > Not true? Can you elaborate? > > > > > > > > > > Huang Qi is only a tonic, not a remover of pathogens. I think > > > > of it as strengthening the ability of the Sp to send clear yang > > up > > > > while Chai Hu facilitates rising by relieving constraint in the > > > > liver and taking stress off the Spleen instead of > > actually " pushing " > > > > the yang qi up. > > > > > > Unsure what you are saying here… > > > > What I am saying is that Chai Hu is not a tonic. It only releases > > the constraint and inhibition of Yang Qi by pathogens. Huang Qi is a > > tonic and therefore strengthens weak rising abilities. Bu Zhong Yi > > Qi Tang combines Huang Qi, Sheng Ma and Chai Hu to address both the > > issue of weak qi raising and constrained qi blocking not allowing > > raising. Sheng Ma is sweet (tonify, harmonize, moisten) and acrid > > (dispersing and moving) so it sort of balances Chai Hu which is > > bitter (draining and drying) and acrid. Huang Qi, like I said, is > > tonic and sweet. These work in harmony. > > > > > > > I like some of your thought, but still not clear in my mind… > > > > > > -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 S, I appreciate your ideas, but we are operating on 2 completely different wave lengths (theoretical foundations), so I will let this discussion rest at where it is at instead of going through one by one, all these, IMO, misunderstandings and IMO MSUings. Maybe I have miscommunicated, but by your responses I feel we are just not understanding each other or we have major theoretical differences in training… IF anyone else has any ideas I would love to here them... Thanx, -Jason , " shannahickle " <shannahickle> wrote: > , " " > <@h...> wrote: > > I have to say that I think this discussion is getting so far from > the > > original question that it is becoming futile.. The logic / > theoretical > > constructions to support the argument are becoming more and more > suspect. > > > > > > You are somehow saying that si ni san because it disperses > constrained > > heat somehow enters the SJ . > > I (along with CM physicians for thousands of years before us) said > chai hu enters the SJ--not si ni san. > > This you are saying is because heat can > > obstruct the kidney yang function which is related to the SJ… > > You said SJ and Kidney yang function were supposedly related too. > Again, the SJ is the place for free flow of Yang Qi and fluids. Do > you disagree? > > There is > > so much web weaving I can't even follow it anymore. I would like > to > > see just some basic theoretical quotes to support your views, but > for > > starters. > > 1) zhi shi & chai hu work together to disperse this constrained > heat, > > you cannot say the chai hu does this without zhi shi, therefore the > > fact that zhi shi doesn't also enter the chai hu is suspect. (if > this > > is why chai hu actually enters the sj, which I don't think so.) > > Chai hu does not enter any organs in the lower jiao which Zhi Shi > does. They do work in concert. > > > > But more importantly I just question the whole idea that dispersing > > constrained heat is evidence that some herb enters the SJ. > > I never said that because something disperses constrained heat it > automatically enters the SJ. I am working off the knowledge which > has been handed down to us that Chai Hu disperses constrained heat > and enters the SJ which makes it somehow " special " among other herbs > that release constrained heat. I'm just trying to discuss your very > well put and interesting question about herbs which enter the SJ and > why they might be thought to do that. Again, I was not the one who > got the idea that these herbs enter the SJ. I am only defending the > masters here with what logic I can come up with according to my > training in TCM thinking. Rarely do the classics/masters just come > right out and tell you " why " about some complicated concept. They > give you the basic information and expect you to figure it out with > experience and right TCM thinking. > > > > Furthermore, in this pattern the constrained heat inhibits the > warming > > function (yang) to the fingertips, but there are many other > > constrained heat patterns that are treated with other herbs like > i.e. > > mu dan pi, and these are not said to enter the SJ. > > Mu Dan Pi addresses xu heat in the lower jiao. Nowhere is it > purported to address heat in the upper jiao or shao yang pivot. > That's why the ancient forefathers never suggested it entered the SJ. > > > > > > The whole premise of this argument is that somehow heat > (insubstantial > > pathogen) is obstructing kidney yang function which is linked to > the > > SJ.. This is, IMO, suspect. Clearing heat to allow kidney yang > > function to operate is not a documented treatment principle. (if > so > > lets see it)… > > Ok. In Bensy's Formulas and Strategies under Si Ni San Bensky > says, " This is yang- or hot-type collapse (yang jue), which is most > commonly due to heat entering the interior where it constrains the > yang qi. This inhibits the spreading of yang qi to the extremities, > causing cold fingers and toes (in contrast to devastated yang, where > the entire limb is cold), and a warm body. " > > IF clearing heat was, then there are other herbs that > > should be listed as SJ herbs. IF it was really about something > > obstructing kidney yang function (linked to SJ) then any herb that > > opened up this ability of kidney yang function to flow would be > said > > to enter the SJ. This is not the case. Herbs that clear excess > cold > > in the lower would be said to enter to SJ with this reasoning. > > Hmmm. No, I think they would be said to enter the lower burner. They > do not address Si Ni which includes upper (fingers) and lower (toes) > burners (via clearing heat at the middle). Again, Chai hu alone can > do this. Si Ni San without Chai Hu is not Si Ni San. Possibly one > could substitute something else for Zhi Shi but not Chai Hu IMHO. > > Chai > > hu is not documented IMO at all at assisting in kidney yang > function. > > By " yang qi " Bensky may talking about Wei which warms the > extremities. Wei Qi is the Yang aspect of Ying and Wei. The SJ > distributes Original Qi including Ying and Wei and " lets them out " > accoring to Maciocia in Foundations of . > > > > I think this whole line of reasoning is completely suspect, and I > > have not seen it documented in Chinese literature. > > > > > > > > Zhi Shi is a deputy, not the chief which is Chai Hu. IMHO, I > think > > > this is an example of clearing heat by SJ as " Frigid > Extremities " io > > > Si Ni is a disease of the upper and lower extremities caused by > Qi > > > stagnation in the middle (Lv overacting on Sp). By facilitating > the > > > middle the qi/blood/yang can travel to the upper and lower. Zhi > Shi > > > does not have the shao yang pivot connection because it is known > to > > > address mostly diseases in the middle/lower jiaos. Chai Hu is > the > > > key with respect to SJ function. It is facilitating the flow to > all > > > three jiaos because it can resolve shao yang disorders which are > > > half interior/half exterior. > > > > The shao yang pivot has nothing to do with the function of chai hu > in > > this situation. Chai is ascending, zhi shi is descending to > disperse > > constrained heat, they work together. Chai hu is not functioning > by > > itself. I don't know where you are getting this idea that chai hu > > because it resolves shao yang disorders is relevant here. That is > in > > xiao chai hu tang! You are mixing apples and oranges. > > > > > > > > – I don't think si ni san is > > > > an example of clearing heat by the SJ. I also don't the yang > is > > > > necessarily kidney yang. Yes kidney is the mother of yang. > But > > > > basically what is meant, IMO, is only that the natural warmth > > Could you explain " natural warmth " in TCM terms and from from where > this originates? > > in > > > > constrained and not getting to the finger tips and creating > > > internal > > > > heat signs. I would have a hard time saying that kidney yang > > > function > > > > is weakened. > > > > > > Right. Not weakened, only constrained. SJ is about free flow, > not > > > deficiency of yang qi. > > > > Like I said there are more documented pathogens that constrain > kidney > > yang qi.. Heat is not. Only in si ni san… and clearing these > > obstructions is not actually doing anything to the SJ!!!! When you > > say an herb enters a channel or organ it enters that organ or > > channel!!! You do not say that an herb enters a channel/ organ > because > > it indirectly helps another organ function. I.e. an herb that > moves > > liver qi to smooth constraint thereby allowing the spleen to > function > > properly does not (or is not said to) enter the SPLEEN Channel. > This > > is circular logic. With this logic you can justify any herb > entering > > any organ / channel, because everything in Chinese medicine is > > connected. I feel this discussion is one big circle. > > I see the difference here to be the fact that all these SJ herbs can > affect either the upper, middle and lower jiaos directly (Zhi Zi) or > interior/exterior (Chai Hu) or facilitate flow in whole body (Xiang > Fu). The region covered by " interior/exterior " by definition would > include all three jiaos as what is left? > > > > > > > > This formula is really about just opening up the liver > > > > and dispersing constrained heat. > > > > > > ...so that Yang Qi can flow freely. > > > > > > > > Zhi Zi clears > > > > > heat and heat can consume qi (a subsidiary of yang) > lessening > > > it's > > > > > ability to perfuse when heat is ubiquitous (in all three > > > jiaos)???? > > > > > > > > Again I don't see any evidence for this idea… > > > > > > Are you questioning that " heat can consume qi " ? Remember that > heat > > > is not Yang Qi but is a Yang Pathogen. I'm afraid I can't quote > the > > > classics but according to Statements of Fact in Traditional > Chinese > > > Medicine pg. 75, Flaws has translated from somewhere > that " Vigorous > > > Fire eats (i.e., consumes) qi " . > > > > Of course I am not saying that the classic suwen chapter 5 quote > that > > " vigorous fire eats original qi " is false… I am questioned this 4 > fold > > logical sequence. You are clearing heat & #61664; heat normally > consumes qi = > > & #61664; > > qi is related to yang & #61664; yang is related to the SJ & #61664; > therefore= > > this > > herb that clears heat SOMEHOW???? Enters the SJ… come on…. This is > > IMO silly… It is much more plausible that this herb clears heat > from > > all three burners (throughout the whole body) (my original idea) > this > > is why it is said to enter the SJ… but this has nothing to do with > > kidney yang qi, or strange heat obstructions of the kidney yang > function… > > As to " strange heat obstructions of the Kidney yang function " , what > is really being blocked in Si Ni San Syndrome is Wei Qi which is the > warming and defending aspect. According to Maciocia, " Defensive Qi > originates from the Essence and Original Qi and is transformed from > Kidney Yang. " When the flow of Wei is blocked by interior heat, it > cannot flow to the outermost reaches. Thus Kidney Yang is unable to > fulfill its true and complete function of transforming to Wei Qi. > The SJ is what makes or doesn't make this Wei Qi available to the > Lungs, which then distributes it to the skin and muscles of the > whole body. > > > > > > > > When there is a pathogen stuck in the Shao Yang level, the > mechanism > > > by which they are released is harmonizing. By harmonizing the > three > > > jiaos, the herbs take what can still be released to the exterior > to > > > the exterior and those which need to be eliminated via stool and > > > urine to these routes. It works from the middle out in both > > > directions simultaneously to save the person from dragging the > > > pathogens which are closer to the surface further to the > interior or > > > weakening the basal energies by trying to expel something to the > > > exterior which is clearly needing to be eliminated via the lower > > > jiao. This is the beauty of the Shao Yang concept. > > > > This whole thing is suspect IMO, in the relation to si ni san or > chai > > hu individually, again shaoyang disease is not treated by chai hu > (by > > itself, or sinisan)… > > Again, Bensky Materia Medica: " Chai Hu....Resolves lesser yang > disorders... " Now we are talking about Xiao Chai Hu Tang. Chai Hu is > the only herb in this formula said to release Shao Yang disorders. > SJ is a Shao Yang organ/channel. I think this is germane. > > what herbs send things through the stool > > Zhi Shi, Da Huang, etc. Where do you think internal pathogens go > when they are drained? > > > which > > to urine, > > Mu Tong, Che Qian Zi, Qu Mai, etc.... > > where is this coming from… How does harmonizing the three > > jiaos all of sudden start sending the pathogen out every which way > but > > loose. > > According to Maciocia, " The Yellow Emperor's Classic variously > describes the function of the Triple Burner as 'opening > up', 'discharging qi', 'letting qi out'. Malfunctions of the Triple > Burner are variously described as 'not flowing smoothly', 'over- > flowing', or 'being blocked'. In practice this means that an > impairment of the Triple Burner function will manifest as a blockage > of the various types of qi or fluids in the three stages. " I take > this to mean that if the SJ is not functioning properly, not only do > healthy qi and fluids become blocked, but the elimination of > pathogens also becomes impaired weather through the sweat pores, > urine or stool. The pathogens are retained and begin to grow in > power. They must be eliminated via a healthy SJ function. That does > not mean that one must always address the SJ--free flow may not be > an issue. > > Herbs do specific things and discharge pathogens in specific > > ways. The word vent means outward. You do not vent a `pathogen to > > the interior', period. Please check the terminology and theory of > the > > herbs. > > My apologies. You are right. One must drain from the interior. > > > > > > Sorry for the doubt and complaints with the discussion. I > appreciate > > this, but I am too tired to go through the below issues. Maybe > > someone can quote some sources (Chinese or reliable English) > instead > > of just making up how things might be. I think because of this > > circular medicine it is real to spin a web, and this above web > > presented might make sense to others, just not to me... > > Sorry I made you tired Jason. These types of discussions I find > extremely invigorating. Shanna > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > > > > addresses upper and lower and it relieves constraint in the > > > liver > > > > > (middle and also in some sources considered lower jiao) and > > > raises > > > > > Spleen yang (middle) which is supported by Kidney yang, > without > > > > > which it cannot T & T. So all three jiaos are affected, > > > > > > > > I think this is a stretch … > > > > > > What is a stretch? Kidney Yang support is needed for the Spleen > Yang > > > to do its job of Transporting (raising clear Yang is an act > > > of " transporting " ) and Transforming. > > > > > > > > blockages > > > > > removed and free flow facilitated.??? > > > > > > > > Like I said this blockage idea is suspect.. There are other > herbs > > > that > > > > definitely remove substantial blocked (much more so) that do > not > > > enter > > > > the SJ. > > > > > > Exactly, they do not " touch " or enter the San Jiao. Therefore, > they > > > only relieve blockages in the areas they affect and only > facilitate > > > the return of Yang qi to those areas. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3rd - if chai hu assists kindey yang by raising clear sp > yang > > > > > (which I > > > > > > am unsure how this works) why wouldn't huangqi, sheng ma, > ge > > > gen > > > > > etc > > > > > > also enter the SJ... > > > > > > > > > > These have no effect on the lower jiao. Sheng ma and Ge gen > > > > > facilitate the flow of yang by clearing pathogens at the > surface > > > > > only. > > > > > > > > Not true at all… > > > > > > Not true? Can you elaborate? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Huang Qi is only a tonic, not a remover of pathogens. I think > > > > > of it as strengthening the ability of the Sp to send clear > yang > > > up > > > > > while Chai Hu facilitates rising by relieving constraint in > the > > > > > liver and taking stress off the Spleen instead of > > > actually " pushing " > > > > > the yang qi up. > > > > > > > > Unsure what you are saying here… > > > > > > What I am saying is that Chai Hu is not a tonic. It only > releases > > > the constraint and inhibition of Yang Qi by pathogens. Huang Qi > is a > > > tonic and therefore strengthens weak rising abilities. Bu Zhong > Yi > > > Qi Tang combines Huang Qi, Sheng Ma and Chai Hu to address both > the > > > issue of weak qi raising and constrained qi blocking not > allowing > > > raising. Sheng Ma is sweet (tonify, harmonize, moisten) and > acrid > > > (dispersing and moving) so it sort of balances Chai Hu which is > > > bitter (draining and drying) and acrid. Huang Qi, like I said, > is > > > tonic and sweet. These work in harmony. > > > > > > > > > > I like some of your thought, but still not clear in my mind… > > > > > > > > -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 , " shannahickle " <shannahickle> wrote: while Chai Hu facilitates rising by relieving constraint in the > liver and taking stress off the Spleen instead of actually " pushing " > the yang qi up. I think this is incorrect. Jiao shu de says chai hu conducts the clear qi upwards. No source I am aware of makes the claim you do. Is this your speculation or an uncited speculation of one of your teachers? Because as I understnd it, huang qi actually has weak lifting action. raw huang qi has none according to sionneau. It must be combined with chai hu and sheng ma for lifting action. while chai hu and sheng ma are frequently added to other formulas to directly increase ascent of qi. So chai hu definitely seems to work by pushing the yang qi up. However that is not a tonic function,but a qi moving function. I think it is quite dangerous to speculate on herb action without an established textual precedent. Anyone who thinks TCM is about making stuff up because it seems to make logical sense has really missed the point (and I am not saying anyone has; still waiting for a citation). Theory is used to explain observations in TCM; it is not a basis for experimenting on ones patients. The strength of TCM is its history and precedents. If you take this away, there is really nothing left. Until one has fully internalized the precedents and exhausted their applications, it is unethical to make things up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Chai Hu is an exterior-resolving medicinals, and all exterior-resolving medicinals are acrid and windy-natured. In terms of the four movements of the qi that means they are both upbearing and floating (i.e., out-thrusting). Clearly Chai Hu does ascend the qi. The qi mechanism is nothing other than a generalized conception of the four movements of the qi. To disinhibit the qi mechanism (or dynamic) means nothing other than to promote upbearing and downbearing, entering and exiting (aka sinking and floating). This is another example of how sticking as close as possible to the original Chinese makes a huge difference in the quality of one's understanding. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Hi Bob Thanks for the info. I have a couple of questions. 1)Does Chai Hu ascend the qi by the same mechanisms or in the same way as Huang Qi? If not, how do they differ? 2)This one's off topic but I've wondered why Bensky lists several herbs under the heading " Cool, Acrid Herbs that Release the Exterior " which are not considered acrid by him in their particular listings. These include Chan Tui, Sang Ye, Ju Hua, Dan Dou Chi, Mu Zei. Is this because they just aren't very acrid? Or does the combo of other tastes they have achieve exterior releasing in some other manner? Or what? 3)Any ideas as to Jason's very interesting SJ Channel question? Why are the herbs Chai Hu, Zhi Zi and Xiang Fu among the very few said to enter the SJ? What makes them different from other herbs in their respective catagories giving them the special designation of entering the SJ? Certainly my next major endeavor will be to learn to read Chinese. I imagine the concepts really coming to life within the characters used in their writing. Much is said with little space. Regards, Shanna , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001> wrote: > Chai Hu is an exterior-resolving medicinals, and all > exterior-resolving medicinals are acrid and windy-natured. In terms of > the four movements of the qi that means they are both upbearing and > floating (i.e., out-thrusting). Clearly Chai Hu does ascend the qi. > The qi mechanism is nothing other than a generalized conception of the > four movements of the qi. To disinhibit the qi mechanism (or dynamic) > means nothing other than to promote upbearing and downbearing, > entering and exiting (aka sinking and floating). This is another > example of how sticking as close as possible to the original Chinese > makes a huge difference in the quality of one's understanding. > > Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 , " " wrote: > , " shannahickle " > <shannahickle> wrote: > > > while Chai Hu facilitates rising by relieving constraint in the > > liver and taking stress off the Spleen instead of > actually " pushing " > > the yang qi up. > > I think this is incorrect. Jiao shu de says chai hu conducts the > clear qi upwards. No source I am aware of makes the claim you do. > Is this your speculation or an uncited speculation of one of your > teachers? Because as I understnd it, huang qi actually has weak > lifting action Is this your speculation or an uncited speculation of one of your teachers? .. raw huang qi has none according to sionneau. It must > be combined with chai hu and sheng ma for lifting action. I stand corrected. I only know that my teachers always warned us not to use Huang qi when addressing syndromes which included upward rebelling qi even if there was lung/spleen qi xu because it could cause bad headaches and raise high blood pressure. Yes, I was using creative assumtion with respect to chai hu vs. huang qi raising abilities. I'm pretty new to these groups and didn't realize how dangerous my ideas might be. I guess that's not welcome here. I apologize for leading anyone astray! I'll try to be more cautious in the future to sight sources or say IMO. while chai > hu and sheng ma are frequently added to other formulas to directly > increase ascent of qi. > > So chai hu definitely seems to work by pushing the yang qi up. > However that is not a tonic function,but a qi moving function. I > think it is quite dangerous to speculate on herb action without an > established textual precedent. Anyone who thinks TCM is about making > stuff up because it seems to make logical sense has really missed the > point (and I am not saying anyone has; still waiting for a > citation). I try not to " make things up " but I do think that TCM has a powerful ability to make logical sense. I think it is important we use our creative abilities integrated with literature to understand the medicine. This is part of dialogue and learning. Don't you agree? Theory is used to explain observations in TCM; it is not > a basis for experimenting on ones patients. I wasn't experimenting on patients here, was I? I was just having a philosophical discussion on aspects of these herbs which are not explained well in either English or Chinese sources that I know of or that Jason knows of. The strength of TCM is > its history and precedents. If you take this away, there is really > nothing left. Until one has fully internalized the precedents and > exhausted their applications, it is unethical to make things up. When will I know that I have fully internalized the precedents if I am not allowed to discuss them? Should I just watch as hundreds of others who feel unsafe on these groups do, and remain unheard? But isn't it ok to bandy ideas around if one identifies them as such? Could we use both sides of our brains at once and integrate the principles into creative discussion or is that too dangerous? Of course I welcome all mention of sources and am always searching for new ones with which to edify myself. Thanks for the Sionneau citation--could you tell me which book. I don't own any Sionneau yet. As I have said, I'm new, both at groups and TCM, and expect to be wrong most of the time. But I have been told that I am also intrepid and unredoubtable so being wrong doesn't bother me a bit and I don't mind admitting when I am. This is how I correct my thinking and learn. Thanks for helping me in this process. Regards, Shanna > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2004 Report Share Posted July 23, 2004 Shanna: > 1)Does Chai Hu ascend the qi by the same mechanisms or in the same > way as Huang Qi? If not, how do they differ? Huang Qi's nature is also upbearing and floating. This is why it can supplement the defensive qi so effectively. However, it's upbearing nature is not as strong as Chai Hu's. > 3)Any ideas as to Jason's very interesting SJ Channel question? Why > are the herbs Chai Hu, Zhi Zi and Xiang Fu among the very few said > to enter the SJ? What makes them different from other herbs in their > respective catagories giving them the special designation of > entering the SJ? When the Chinese say gui jing, gather in the channel, they don't mean the channels per se. They are talking about the viscera and bowels. Why they don't use those words, I don't know. When they say enters the three burners, they do not necessarily mean the triple burner channel. They mean that the med acts on the viscera and bowels within any of the three burners, upper, middle, and lower, as all three of the meds you mention clearly do. In contemporary standard professional Chinese medicine, there is no such thing as triple burner. There are only the three burners. The triple burner is only the generalized concept of the integrated functioning of the viscera and bowels within the three burners. Again, this is largely a translational issue. In English, triple burner sounds like a single thing, but the Chinese is three burners. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2004 Report Share Posted July 23, 2004 Bob Thanks for your interpretations. You have helped me in my understanding of these concepts. I'll always have a little different take in the future regarding Huang Qi vs. Chai Hu and the Three Burners. However, you said: >They mean that the med acts on the viscera and bowels within any of > the three burners, upper, middle, and lower, as all three of the meds > you mention clearly do. I'm still a little perplexed as to why say, Chai Hu, is said to enter the SJ when, correct me if I'm wrong, all medicines " act on the viscera and bowels withing any of the three burners " . Wouldn't this then mean that all medicines enter the SJ? I'm just trying to sort out what makes these SJ herbs different enough in their action/regions of influence to have them designated as " entering the SJ " . Thanks for taking time with my fumbling questions. Comments from everyone are welcome here. Shanna , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001> wrote: > Shanna: > > > 1)Does Chai Hu ascend the qi by the same mechanisms or in the same > > way as Huang Qi? If not, how do they differ? > > Huang Qi's nature is also upbearing and floating. This is why it can > supplement the defensive qi so effectively. However, it's upbearing > nature is not as strong as Chai Hu's. > > > 3)Any ideas as to Jason's very interesting SJ Channel question? Why > > are the herbs Chai Hu, Zhi Zi and Xiang Fu among the very few said > > to enter the SJ? What makes them different from other herbs in their > > respective catagories giving them the special designation of > > entering the SJ? > > When the Chinese say gui jing, gather in the channel, they don't mean > the channels per se. They are talking about the viscera and bowels. > Why they don't use those words, I don't know. When they say enters the > three burners, they do not necessarily mean the triple burner channel. > They mean that the med acts on the viscera and bowels within any of > the three burners, upper, middle, and lower, as all three of the meds > you mention clearly do. In contemporary standard professional Chinese > medicine, there is no such thing as triple burner. There are only the > three burners. The triple burner is only the generalized concept of > the integrated functioning of the viscera and bowels within the three > burners. Again, this is largely a translational issue. In English, > triple burner sounds like a single thing, but the Chinese is three > burners. > > Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 Shanna, Not all herbs work on viscera and bowels in all three burners. Some meds only work on viscera in the upper burner. Others only work on viscera and bowels in the middle burner. Yet others only work on viscera and bowels in the lower burner. Chai Hu and Zhi Zi work on viscera and bowels in any of the three burners. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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