Guest guest Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Hi All, I am wondering if there might be a connection between kidney qi xu (specifically kidney failing to grasp qi) and liver qi stagnation (specifically liver invading lungs). I have a patient who exhibits both of these patterns, and I am wondering if kidney failing to grasp qi can contribute to failure of proper movement of liver qi; or conversely, if upwardly rebelling liver qi from liver qi stagnation can contribute to failure of kidney to grasp lung qi. Another question is if stagnation in the middle jiao (sp qi xu damp/phlegm rheum) can obstruct the flow of qi in the 3 jiaos enough to interfere with the kidney's grasping of qi. I've got all these patterns, and I'm trying to better understand how they are connected. Any ideas? < wrote: , " shannahickle " <shannahickle> wrote: > Hi Brian and Jason > > Just a thought. Could it be that these herbs clear obstructions in > the SJ and therefore facilitate the activity, flow and reach of > Kidney Yang? Zhi zi--clear pathogenic heat in all three jiao. Heat > can serve as an obstruction just like phlegm, damp, cold, blood. > Heat is the insubstantial one of the bunch, like yang itself. Also, > of course, zhi zi reaches all three jiaos. Chai hu resolves shao > yang disorders so has an effect on venting pathogens both to the > exterior and interior (for elimination via lower jiao) removing > obstructions to flow of yang. Also spreads liver qi and resolves > constraint--does this help K yang do it's job with less effort? It > does this while helping to " raise the yang qi " , again assisting yang > and carrying it to the upper jiao. Xiang fu is more mysterious. > Other than the usual regulation of qi and thereby facilitating yang, > I can't see why it would be entering the SJ any moreso than any > other herb in the category which did the same. Just some museings. > Please take apart at will!!! Interesting ideas: 1st - do you have a source for the idea that heat can block the function of kindey yang function? 2nd- There are so many other herbs that can not only directly affect kindey yang but eliminate substantial blockages, that do not enter the SJ, so I feel this is somewhat of a stretch. IF it was just about removing heat and blockages, there are much stronger herbs that do this. The question is why these? (I don't think there is an answer...) 3rd - if chai hu assists kindey yang by raising clear sp yang (which I am unsure how this works) why wouldn't huangqi, sheng ma, ge gen etc also enter the SJ... There seems to be too many inconsistensie for this to work, but do you have further comments>? -JAson Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 , <> wrote: > Hi All, > > I am wondering if there might be a connection between kidney qi xu (specifically kidney failing to grasp qi) and liver qi stagnation (specifically liver invading lungs). Have you considered Lung qi xu contributing to Kid xu (metal not nourising water). This would make it easy for the liver to counteract the lung. If the Lung is weak, the Kidney is not nourished and becomes weak and unable to nourish wood, wood becomes dry and more easily stagnates counteracting a weak Lung setting up this triad. I would focus on strengthening the Lung qi's ability to downbear and depurate. How old is the patient? If young without any lifestyle/preheaven factors, I would think Lung and by focusing here the Kidney's energy would naturally increase, then the liver would be properly nourished and " uninterested " in counteracting the stronger lung energy. To my knowledge, the liver can only counteract the lung if the lung is deficient as it's natural way of " invading " is to the spleen. The control cycle, to my knowledge, only works to the right and is the natural way of things. The " counteracting " cycle works backwards only under extreme circumstances when the counteracted organ is pretty deficient. Correct me if I'm wrong, please. Hope this provides food for thought. Warm Regards, Shanna I have a patient who exhibits both of these patterns, and I am wondering if kidney failing to grasp qi can contribute to failure of proper movement of liver qi; or conversely, if upwardly rebelling liver qi from liver qi stagnation can contribute to failure of kidney to grasp lung qi. Another question is if stagnation in the middle jiao (sp qi xu damp/phlegm rheum) can obstruct the flow of qi in the 3 jiaos enough to interfere with the kidney's grasping of qi. I've got all these patterns, and I'm trying to better understand how they are connected. Any ideas? > > > > <@h...> wrote: > , " shannahickle " > <shannahickle> wrote: > > Hi Brian and Jason > > > > Just a thought. Could it be that these herbs clear obstructions in > > the SJ and therefore facilitate the activity, flow and reach of > > Kidney Yang? Zhi zi--clear pathogenic heat in all three jiao. Heat > > can serve as an obstruction just like phlegm, damp, cold, blood. > > Heat is the insubstantial one of the bunch, like yang itself. Also, > > of course, zhi zi reaches all three jiaos. Chai hu resolves shao > > yang disorders so has an effect on venting pathogens both to the > > exterior and interior (for elimination via lower jiao) removing > > obstructions to flow of yang. Also spreads liver qi and resolves > > constraint--does this help K yang do it's job with less effort? It > > does this while helping to " raise the yang qi " , again assisting yang > > and carrying it to the upper jiao. Xiang fu is more mysterious. > > Other than the usual regulation of qi and thereby facilitating yang, > > I can't see why it would be entering the SJ any moreso than any > > other herb in the category which did the same. Just some museings. > > Please take apart at will!!! > > Interesting ideas: > > 1st - do you have a source for the idea that heat can block the > function of kindey yang function? > 2nd- There are so many other herbs that can not only directly affect > kindey yang but eliminate substantial blockages, that do not enter the > SJ, so I feel this is somewhat of a stretch. IF it was just about > removing heat and blockages, there are much stronger herbs that do > this. The question is why these? (I don't think there is an answer...) > 3rd - if chai hu assists kindey yang by raising clear sp yang (which I > am unsure how this works) why wouldn't huangqi, sheng ma, ge gen etc > also enter the SJ... > There seems to be too many inconsistensie for this to work, but do you > have further comments>? > > -JAson > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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