qi and channels

[Guest guest]

I present this as it impacts the way we present this medicine to the

public. If qi is invisible stuff that flows in discrete channels, that

automatically lends it self to a quasimystical interpretation. If it

is merely air flowing with the blood, or vitality or function, then the

mystical nature disappears. Kendall, of course, proposes the latter.

And while unschuld does not get as anatomical as Kendall, he certainly

shares the antimystical viewpoint. Unschuld translates the su wen, so

his focus has been on the TCM theory in his nei jing studies, but the

ling shu is where practical matters appear, such as needling technique.

In Versluy's translation of classical needling techniques from the

ling shu published in the feb 04 JCM, something is striking. The

author translates the passages on 9 needling techniques, 12 needling

techniques and 5 needling techniques. What jumps out at the reader is

the virtual absence of any mention of manipulation of qi flow in

invisible channels. Instead the focus is on organ function, blood

flow, bi obstruction and pathogenic accumulation. In addition, most of

the needling described is quite mechanical in nature, involving

vigorous needle movement and stretching of affected tissues, nothing

subtle or energetic about it. While the nan jing clearly presents a

style of needling focused on qi flow in invisible channels and the five

phases, this is arguably an aberration from the nei jing's original

thesis. Unschuld in fact consider the nan jing to be a completely

different way of doing acupuncture, not an extension of the nei jing

per se. The nan jing never held favor in china and is not really

considered an important classic by most modern chinese. It was

recently dropped from the PCOM DAOM program. I think the nan jing

theories have had an undue and excessive influence on american thought

about qi, while the sourcebook itself, the nei jing, seems more and

more anatomical in nature every time I dig deeper.

 

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

 

FAX:

 

 

[Guest guest]

quasimystical interpretation.

>>>>Just heard on NPR that 60% of Americans believe in angles. In Europe such a

question would have been considered to ridiculous to even ask according to the

survey

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

The topic of a Nan Jing course in the doctorate is under discussion,

nothing has been dropped at this point. It looks like the Nan Jing

course will be offered in the winter semester instead. Let's keep our

facts straight.

 

I don't like such patent generalizations about such a complex topic

as the methodology and theoretical foundations of

acupuncture/moxabustion. While certainly the Nan Jing was quite

innovative, I think it is wrong to generalize and say that 'the Nan

Jing NEVER held favor in China'. I have at least five copies of

different texts on the Nan Jing published on the mainland, two

clinically based. Jason Robertson is a student of a Nan Jing-style

acupuncturist in Beijing. It may not be 'mainstream', but acupuncture

itself is not so 'mainstream' in mainland China, is it?

 

The reason why the Nan Jing has such an influence on the Western

practice of acupuncture is because it is so concise and condensed in

comparison with the Nei Jing corpus. Also, the great influence of

'Japanese styles' in the West. Finally, we are still awaiting a good

translation of the Nei Jing. In the meantime, Chip Chace and Yang

Shouzhong's translation of the Jia Yi Jing/Systematic Classic of

Acupuncture and Moxabustion will allow Western readers access to much

of the richness of the Nei Jing material.

 

Reading the Jia Yi Jing material, I don't see any basis for your

argument that the Nei Jing material is 'more anatomical' than the Nan

Jing. Perhaps you could explain your position further. While I don't

dispute that there is a lot of anatomically-based material in the Nei

Jing, and even some in the Nan Jing (length of channels, descriptions

of viscera by weight), it is not an either-or situation.

 

 

 

On Jul 18, 2004, at 9:40 AM, wrote:

 

> While the nan jing clearly presents a

> style of needling focused on qi flow in invisible channels and the five

> phases, this is arguably an aberration from the nei jing's original

> thesis. Unschuld in fact consider the nan jing to be a completely

> different way of doing acupuncture, not an extension of the nei jing

> per se. The nan jing never held favor in china and is not really

> considered an important classic by most modern chinese. It was

> recently dropped from the PCOM DAOM program. I think the nan jing

> theories have had an undue and excessive influence on american thought

> about qi, while the sourcebook itself, the nei jing, seems more and

> more anatomical in nature every time I dig deeper.

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

[Guest guest]

, wrote:

While the nan jing clearly presents a

> style of needling focused on qi flow in invisible channels and the five

> phases, this is arguably an aberration from the nei jing's original

> thesis.

 

And this is a problem why? I think it has alread stood the test of

time...

 

Unschuld in fact consider the nan jing to be a completely

> different way of doing acupuncture, not an extension of the nei jing

> per se. The nan jing never held favor in china and is not really

> considered an important classic by most modern chinese.

 

Again this is a problem why? I will elaborate... Obviously Chinese

acupuncture is very physically based, no subtleness (at least

generally speaking) JAson R. Clearly states that he studies with an

'energetic acupuncturist' in Beijing...

 

It was

> recently dropped from the PCOM DAOM program. I think the nan jing

> theories have had an undue and excessive influence on American thought

> about qi, while the sourcebook itself, the nei jing, seems more and

> more anatomical in nature every time I dig deeper.

 

It seems like the wrong question is being asked. Obviously there is a

very valid type of acupuncture that works on this `energetic' level.

And according to my observations and reports from different schools of

each, the more subtle acupuncture is at least said to be able to treat

much more severe conditions (W/O HERBS) – where i.e. in China the

status quo seems to be that if there is an internal medicine problem

most likely herbs will be the modality of choice. And acupuncture is

a minor deal. This says a lot to me. And honestly for what I have

seen in my limited years, here in the states and in Asia, I am not

surprised that acupuncture is not reported to be able to treat more…

 

I get the impression that these posts and attitude are to prove why

this `energetic' acupuncture shouldn't exist. I.e. This text (nan

jing) is a complete deviation from the real CM (nei jing) therefore

the acupuncture is bogus (I may be reading into your thought process,

but please elaborate on what your point to this line of thinking is)…

 

On can of course completely deny the idea that we have energetic (qi)

fields, or that acupuncture can work on an energetic (qi) level.

There is no question in my mind that a very energetic type of

acupuncture exists. If this is new or old is moot. Japanese meridian

therapists are some of the most dedicated practitioners that have an

excellent `scientific' method of evaluating their adaptation (if you

will)… I completely think taking a purely physiological perspective

(as true or not to the neijing as it may) is only limiting acupuncture

and medicine's healing potential. It is all a matter of how focused

and one's awareness of subtlety that allows one to practice on this

different level. I think it is very telling that one of the most

renowned meridian therapy system's was developed by blind practitioners.

 

So, one can choose. 1) Acupuncture is very limited, it is very

physical, and really does very little for internal medicine (clearly

seen in modern China) or 2) Let's look at people who practice

acupuncture at a very high level (without herbs) and see what the hell

they are doing… there is a lot to learn, and a lot that we don't

understand.

 

So to make a long story short, I have no problem with using the energy

medicine lingo with patients. They understand it, I understand it,

and my colleagues understand it. IMO, it exists. I think it is silly

to argue if it was air in the blood vessels or not. One can always

find support for our belief system (in articles, observations, and in

one's supposed flawless logic)…

 

To conclude, I am not giving free reign for every wingnut under the

sun to start holding up tuning forks and call this valid medicine. I

think there is a fine line between the two, and I look for rigor,

research, time, and results within the system. No simple equation

though… that should be enough to get a firestorm started…

 

Respectfully,

 

-

[Guest guest]

, " "

<zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

>

> The topic of a Nan Jing course in the doctorate is under

discussion,

> nothing has been dropped at this point. It looks like the Nan Jing

> course will be offered in the winter semester instead. Let's keep our

> facts straight.

>

> I don't like such patent generalizations about such a complex topic

> as the methodology and theoretical foundations of

> acupuncture/moxabustion. While certainly the Nan Jing was quite

> innovative, I think it is wrong to generalize and say that 'the Nan

> Jing NEVER held favor in China'. I have at least five copies of

> different texts on the Nan Jing published on the mainland, two

> clinically based. Jason Robertson is a student of a Nan Jing-style

> acupuncturist in Beijing. It may not be 'mainstream', but acupuncture

> itself is not so 'mainstream' in mainland China, is it?

>

> The reason why the Nan Jing has such an influence on the Western

> practice of acupuncture is because it is so concise and condensed in

> comparison with the Nei Jing corpus. Also, the great influence of

> 'Japanese styles' in the West. Finally, we are still awaiting a good

> translation of the Nei Jing. In the meantime, Chip Chace and Yang

> Shouzhong's translation of the Jia Yi Jing/Systematic Classic of

> Acupuncture and Moxabustion will allow Western readers access to much

> of the richness of the Nei Jing material.

 

Just got the new UPDATED edition, and it is great, A much improved and

greatly enhanced index is the big selling point. One can find stuff

much easier...

 

-

[Guest guest]

, " "

<@h...> wrote:

 

> Just got the new UPDATED edition, and it is great, A much improved and

> greatly enhanced index is the big selling point. One can find stuff

> much easier...

>

> -

 

There were 3 books mentioned in the post. Which has an updated

version, the Neijing, Nanjing, or Systematic Classic of A & M?

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

, " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...> wrote:

> , " "

> <@h...> wrote:

>

> > Just got the new UPDATED edition, and it is great, A much improved and

> > greatly enhanced index is the big selling point. One can find stuff

> > much easier...

> >

> > -

>

> There were 3 books mentioned in the post. Which has an updated

> version, the Neijing, Nanjing, or Systematic Classic of A & M?

>

> Brian C. Allen

 

jia yi jing

 

-JB

[Guest guest]

, " "

<@h...> wrote:

 

> jia yi jing

>

> -JB

 

The post specifically mentioned the Blue Poppy Press translation. I

checked online and could not find a new edition of that anywhere.

 

Are you talking about a new Chinese version of the text?

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

, " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...> wrote:

> , " "

> <@h...> wrote:

>

> > jia yi jing

> >

> > -JB

>

> The post specifically mentioned the Blue Poppy Press translation. I

> checked online and could not find a new edition of that anywhere.

 

It is BP--> (paperback) Maybe it will be out in the near future.... Bob?

 

-JAson

 

>

> Are you talking about a new Chinese version of the text?

>

> Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

I've got a postcard from BP stating that it is on sale for 15% off until the

end of July, sounds like it's available.

http://www.bluepoppy.com/acb/showprod.cfm? & DID=8 & CATID=11 & ObjectGroup_ID=96

 

Tim Sharpe

 

 

 

 

Sunday, July 18, 2004 9:34 PM

 

Re: qi and channels

 

, " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...> wrote:

> , " "

> <@h...> wrote:

>

> > jia yi jing

> >

> > -JB

>

> The post specifically mentioned the Blue Poppy Press translation. I

> checked online and could not find a new edition of that anywhere.

 

It is BP--> (paperback) Maybe it will be out in the near future.... Bob?

 

-JAson

 

>

> Are you talking about a new Chinese version of the text?

>

> Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

, " Tim Sharpe "

<listserve@d...> wrote:

> I've got a postcard from BP stating that it is on sale for 15% off

until the

> end of July, sounds like it's available.

>

http://www.bluepoppy.com/acb/showprod.cfm? & DID=8 & CATID=11 & ObjectGroup_ID=96

 

That refers to a reprinting (it was out of print) of the original edition.

 

Jason spoke of an updated edition with improvements.

 

I'm already bumming out because I should buy the updated Bensky

Materia Medica and the newer edition of Clavey's Fluid Pysiology, both

of which have significant improvements over the older editions that I own.

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

I just purchased John Chens new formula book. Do any of you think that also

purchasing the new Bensky book would be worth the money of is John Chens book

better or different in content. I have not had the chance to read it yet.

Thanks

Brian

 

bcataiji <bcaom wrote:

, " Tim Sharpe "

<listserve@d...> wrote:

> I've got a postcard from BP stating that it is on sale for 15% off

until the

> end of July, sounds like it's available.

>

http://www.bluepoppy.com/acb/showprod.cfm? & DID=8 & CATID=11 & ObjectGroup_ID=96

 

That refers to a reprinting (it was out of print) of the original edition.

 

Jason spoke of an updated edition with improvements.

 

I'm already bumming out because I should buy the updated Bensky

Materia Medica and the newer edition of Clavey's Fluid Pysiology, both

of which have significant improvements over the older editions that I own.

 

Brian C. Allen

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Brian

 

Reading Todd's comments on the preview pages (see message 27719)

http://health./message/27719

 

suggests that there is a place beside Chen's materia medica.

Bensky's text going more in the direction of a textbook with

explanatory commentary and references to classical texts.

Chen's text is more going into the direction of a reference book for

practitioners.

 

But you can judge for yourself as there is an extensive section of

preview pages available from the website of eastland press.

 

I would like to hear your opinion on the comparison as well.

 

Best wishes

 

Alwin

 

--- Brian Hardy wrote:

> I just purchased John Chens new formula book. Do any of you think

that also purchasing the new Bensky book would be worth the money of

is John Chens book better or different in content. I have not had the

chance to read it yet.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the reply. I will read the link that you sent.

Brian

 

wrote:

Hi Brian

 

Reading Todd's comments on the preview pages (see message 27719)

http://health./message/27719

 

suggests that there is a place beside Chen's materia medica.

Bensky's text going more in the direction of a textbook with

explanatory commentary and references to classical texts.

Chen's text is more going into the direction of a reference book for

practitioners.

 

But you can judge for yourself as there is an extensive section of

preview pages available from the website of eastland press.

 

I would like to hear your opinion on the comparison as well.

 

Best wishes

 

Alwin

 

--- Brian Hardy wrote:

> I just purchased John Chens new formula book. Do any of you think

that also purchasing the new Bensky book would be worth the money of

is John Chens book better or different in content. I have not had the

chance to read it yet.

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.