Guest guest Posted August 7, 2004 Report Share Posted August 7, 2004 from the excerpt of Bensky's new materia medica: combining Ephedrae Herba (ma huang) With Cinnamomi Ramulus (gui zhi) Both of these herbs are acrid and warm, and both enter the greater yang channel. The combination is used when pathogenic cold has attacked and lodged in the exterior, especially in winter. Ephedrae Herba (ma huang) travels best at the protective level; it strongly disperses cold by promoting sweating. ****Cinnamomi Ramulus (gui zhi) moves best at the nutritive level, **** where it warms the channels and releases the muscle layer, but ****its sweat-inducing action is much less than that of Ephedrae Herba (ma huang).**** The diaphoretic effect of Ephedrae Herba (ma huang) is enhanced by the addition of Cinnamomi Ramulus (gu“ zh•), and the latter can lead a pathogen lodged at the nutritive level out to the exterior, where it is dispersed. A strong patient with a strong wind-cold pathogen requires Ephedrae Herba (ma huang) at twice the dose of Cinnamomi Ramulus (gui zhi). If the dose is equal, or there is only slightly more Ephedrae Herba (ma huang), there will be a moderate sweating effect. More Cinnamomi Ramulus (gui zhi) than Ephedrae Herba (ma huang) induces only a slight sweat. My comments: This passage actually suggests that while gui zhi does induce some sweating on it own ( " its sweat-inducing action is much less than that of Ephedrae Herba " ), that is locus of action is actually the nutritive or ying. The last paragraph above seems to suggest that gui zhi actually has an inhibiting effect on ma huang. With it action on the ying and it having an inhibition on ma huang's activity, yet still inducing slight sweating on its own, it does appear to embody the idea of harmonizing ying and wei by itself. Chinese Herbs FAX: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2004 Report Share Posted August 7, 2004 , wrote: > actually the nutritive or ying. The last paragraph above seems to > suggest that gui zhi actually has an inhibiting effect on ma huang. > With it action on the ying and it having an inhibition on ma huang's > activity, yet still inducing slight sweating on its own, it does appear > to embody the idea of harmonizing ying and wei by itself. There were 2 ways to read that passage on which you are commenting, which is really a shame because this is a new book and it already has problems. 1. One way to read it is as you have indicated above, that gui zhi has an inhibitory effect on ma huang. 2. The other way to read it is where the problem exists. The previous idea mentions Ma Huang at twice the dose of Gui Zhi, but no doses are given. Gan I give 1 g of Ma Huang and .5g of Gui Zhi and get a good diaphoretic effect? Probably not. It is likely that the author is referring to standard dosing ideas. Likewise, if I use 18g of Ma Huang and 20g of Gui Zhi, is Gui Zhi really going to inhibit Ma Huang's diaphoretic action, or does the author again assume standard dosing ideas. If this type of vagueness is found widespread in this book in regards to combinations, then it might not even be worth getting, if the combinations commentary was a major reason for getting the new edition. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2004 Report Share Posted August 7, 2004 , " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...> wrote: > > 1. One way to read it is as you have indicated above, that gui zhi > has an inhibitory effect on ma huang. > 2. The other way to read it is where the problem exists. The > previous idea mentions Ma Huang at twice the dose of Gui Zhi, but no > doses are given. Gan I give 1 g of Ma Huang and .5g of Gui Zhi and > get a good diaphoretic effect? Probably not. It is likely that the > author is referring to standard dosing ideas. Likewise, if I use 18g > of Ma Huang and 20g of Gui Zhi, is Gui Zhi really going to inhibit Ma > Huang's diaphoretic action, or does the author again assume standard > dosing ideas. Even relying on standard dose ranges, you could still end with this: ma huang 6/ gui zhi 3 (2:1 ratio): big sweat ma huang 6/ gui zhi 6 (1:1 ratio): moderate sweat ma huang 6/ gui zhi 9 (1:1.5 ratio): slight sweat If the dose of ma haung stays the same, the only way to read that math is that the increasing dose of gui zhi actually has an inhibitory on sweating. However if you hold gui zhi stable and vary ma huang, then I would not draw the same conclusion. However if the example below is more accurate, then all that is being said is that as you lower the total dosage of the two herbs combined that the total diaphoretic effect decreases. That would be expected by common sense and demonstrates simple summation of effects and no real synergy or even substraction of effects. Note that the total dosage of the two herbs increases in the first example and decreases in the second one below. ma huang 9/ gui zhi 4.5 (2:1 ratio): big sweat ma huang 4.5/ gui zhi 4.5 (1:1 ratio): moderate sweat ma huang 3/ gui zhi 4.5 (1:1.5 ratio): slight sweat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 In Formulas and Strategies, Bensky states that gui zhi, 'when combined with the chief herb, strengthens the diaphoretic action of the formula " . A modification of ma huang tang is san ao tang, minus gui zhi. Bensky states that without gui zhi, 'the diaphoretic action is not as strong as the principal formula'. On Aug 7, 2004, at 11:31 AM, wrote: > My comments: This passage actually suggests that while gui zhi does > induce some sweating on it own ( " its sweat-inducing action > is much less than that of Ephedrae Herba " ), that is locus of action is > actually the nutritive or ying. The last paragraph above seems to > suggest that gui zhi actually has an inhibiting effect on ma huang. > With it action on the ying and it having an inhibition on ma huang's > activity, yet still inducing slight sweating on its own, it does appear > to embody the idea of harmonizing ying and wei by itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 At 12:46 PM -0700 8/8/04, wrote: >In Formulas and Strategies, Bensky states that gui zhi, 'when combined >with the chief herb, strengthens the diaphoretic action of the >formula " . > >A modification of ma huang tang is san ao tang, minus gui zhi. Bensky >states that without gui zhi, 'the diaphoretic action is not as strong >as the principal formula'. -- I'd always assumed this was an example of " mutual accentuation " , whereby two herbs with similar functions have enhanced function when combined. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 Undoubtedly, but it seems to contradict what Todd was quoting earlier. I found that interesting. On Aug 8, 2004, at 2:02 PM, Rory Kerr wrote: > At 12:46 PM -0700 8/8/04, wrote: >> In Formulas and Strategies, Bensky states that gui zhi, 'when combined >> with the chief herb, strengthens the diaphoretic action of the >> formula " . >> >> A modification of ma huang tang is san ao tang, minus gui zhi. Bensky >> states that without gui zhi, 'the diaphoretic action is not as strong >> as the principal formula'. > -- > I'd always assumed this was an example of " mutual accentuation " , > whereby two herbs with similar functions have enhanced function when > combined. > > Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Undoubtedly, but it seems to contradict what Todd was quoting earlier. > I found that interesting. > It is interesting, especially if you are a student faced with the option of buying the new edition of the materia medica now knowing that it contains poor vaguaries and stands in contradiction to the formulary. I think clear, consistent, and complete information is what students want most from their textbooks. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 At 2:33 PM -0700 8/8/04, wrote: >Undoubtedly, but it seems to contradict what Todd was quoting earlier. >I found that interesting. -- Ah! but then again, maybe it's the fact that san ao tang has a lower total weight of acrid herbs that reduces its diaphoretic effect. Perhaps Dan could be encouraged to weigh in on this one. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 Can we frame this in terms of different sorts of warming/supplementing/exterior releasing functions? While gui zhi is primarily acrid it has a sweet side which could also be thought of as retarding or prolonging the effect of the diaphoresis, making MHT stronger than san ao tang. The analogy would be lighting gasoline on fire: it goes whoomp, but if there is something to wick on it will soak in and burn longer, producing a more enduring/somewhat different effect. Sometimes all one needs is the whoomp, sometimes you need slow(er) and steady(er). I think there is a rough parallel with ma huang xi xin fu zi tang, where ma huang and xi xin are too quick and acrid to sustain outthrusting action to break cold. Fu zi supports this with its deeper expel cold/damp function, which is strong, but not quick enough on its own to break exterior cold without using to much internally and risking a trapped heat problem. At root is the yang vacuity, which could be thought of as a deeper manifestation of the exterior vacuity which allows a pathogen in to begin with. If we think about any exterior condition as being rooted in a vacuity then it becomes an issue of analyzing the depth of the vacuity, and constructing a chain of appropriate herbs to make sure the pathogen is cleared effectively with warm acrid medicinals that address the appropriate depths. While fu zi is typically included in " expel cold " it is most often seen in yang tonics. What I mean is that releasing the exterior and expelling cold are functionally similar. You are adding an overflow of zheng qi at some level to blow out xie qi. What is left over in releasing the exterior is blown off via the pores, producing a diffuse sweat. In expel cold the heat isn't retained (yang isn't supplemented) because it is administered sans the yin tonics which usually anchor it in yang tonic rx. In all these situations sweet/cloying herbs or qualities fix the heat and change its function or location of action. So I don't think we can assume it a mere function of quantity of acrid meds in a particular rx, but rather a function of the overlapping effect of acrid meds that work at different levels.. Par - " Rory Kerr " <rorykerr Sunday, August 08, 2004 5:02 PM Re: more on gui zhi > At 12:46 PM -0700 8/8/04, wrote: > >In Formulas and Strategies, Bensky states that gui zhi, 'when combined > >with the chief herb, strengthens the diaphoretic action of the > >formula " . > > > >A modification of ma huang tang is san ao tang, minus gui zhi. Bensky > >states that without gui zhi, 'the diaphoretic action is not as strong > >as the principal formula'. > -- > I'd always assumed this was an example of " mutual accentuation " , > whereby two herbs with similar functions have enhanced function when > combined. > > Rory > -- > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.