SAM-e and seizures; chelating and detoxing heavy metals with herbs

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/11/2004 1:05:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

writes:

Chris,

 

I know of someone, a seizure patient, whose brain MRIs are perfectly

normal--no lesions, and who about 10 years ago was determined as having

toxic levels of mercury poisoning as determined by DMPS.

 

Did that person continue on the DMPS or other chelating protocohl?

 

Also, a very

emotional personal with lots of liver qi stagnation, her condition was

exascerbated by kidney and heart yin xu, creating a complex pattern of

deficient and excess heat.

 

Tquestion to me is, where did teh origin of the pattern start. I find

that metal toxicity can bind liver Qi pretty tight and make a near normal person

more and more emotional over time.

 

 

When she took small doses of pharmaceutical

grade SAM-e (which at the time had to be imported from Europe, as it was

illegal here), her seizure activity dramatically increased during a one

month trial.

 

Interesting. I wonder why. As I see it, as a person takes Sam-e the

methylation process is going to increase. This is going to take additional

nutrients to support the accelerated processes including B-6 and B-12. One of

my

theories is these nutrients support yin and we know they support the nervous

system.

So, this person, who was probably deficient in the B's that support the

nervous system took a product that would likely lower these nutrients even

further.

In addition, taking Sam-e will increase sulfur compounds. One of the

reasons it helps joint pain. As you look at a lot of the chealating agents

commonly used, they are typically sulfur based compounds. I believe DMPS and

EDTA

both are. It is possible that the increase in Sam-e, increased sulfur

compounds which started to chelate metal out of his system. I believe one of

the

potential side effect of heavy metal toxicity is seizures.

So a possibility is that his body became even more deficient in the

nutrients needed to support the nervous system at the very time when it was

being

contacted by addition heavy metals as they were being lifted by the sulfur

based compounds created by taking the Sam-e.

 

Of course non of this may have been at play.

 

 

Remember, that from a Chinese perspective seizures come

from liver wind and phegm blocking the heart channel. Of course one

could conjecture that the SAM-e was reducing the liver fire, but was also

worsening the deficient heat.

 

It is possible that as a person takes detoxing compounds while the toxins

are being lifted, there is an increase in liver fire without the support of

Yin. I would guess that the B-vits would be critical with this person.

 

 

Of course this is complete conjecture and without seeing the person, it

would be impossible to know what was really going on.

 

Comments?

 

As you mentioned, garlic, a heavy sulfur herb and cilantro are metal

chelators. Another food for chelating is chlorella.

 

 

How is this person doing now?

 

Chris

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chris,

 

I know of someone, a seizure patient, whose brain MRIs are perfectly

normal--no lesions, and who about 10 years ago was determined as having

toxic levels of mercury poisoning as determined by DMPS. Also, a very

emotional personal with lots of liver qi stagnation, her condition was

exascerbated by kidney and heart yin xu, creating a complex pattern of

deficient and excess heat. When she took small doses of pharmaceutical

grade SAM-e (which at the time had to be imported from Europe, as it was

illegal here), her seizure activity dramatically increased during a one

month trial. Remember, that from a Chinese perspective seizures come

from liver wind and phegm blocking the heart channel. Of course one

could conjecture that the SAM-e was reducing the liver fire, but was also

worsening the deficient heat.

 

One other thought I would like to float out there. I know in the past,

the group has discussed the mechanisms of heavy metal toxicity and

methods of detoxification. But I'm wondering if there has been any

literature or studies of the specific effect of herbs and formulae as

detoxing and chelating agents, much as there has been with herbs used

instead of chemo or detoxing the poisoning effects of chemo. I know that

the naturopathic community has touted the benefits of garlic and cilantro

as chelator aiding in heavy metal detox. I wonder if the Chen's new book

speaks about it.

 

 

 

Yehuda

 

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:57:58 EDT Musiclear writes:

>

> The liver is responsible for taking potentially harmful

> compounds and

> breaking them down into less harmful compounds. It will allow some

> to reenter

> the blood, others to be expelled through bile and in some

> situations, the liver

> will store them in fat.

> This is part of the normal process of the liver.

> Bile flow is an important aspect of the " detox " process

> otherwise, the

> liver has trouble getting rid of the compounds and is forced to

> either allow

> them back to the blood or store them in fat.

> If a person has had liver Qi stag, it is my belief that the

> liver will be

> holding on to more toxins than if the Qi was moving freely.

> If a person improves bile and Qi flow or biochemistry, then the

> liver is

> more able to resume the job of getting rid of toxins. If there has

> been an

> abundance of toxin stored, there may be a lot of toxins dumped into

> bile or blood

> which could give a person symptoms that many would call a " Healing

> Crisis " .

>

> IMHO,

>

> Chris

>

>

> In a message dated 8/11/2004 3:16:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> writes:

> I ran across this post. I hate to be a jerk but what do others think

> a liver

> detox is? I'm not

> coming down on Chris, it's just I hear this all the time and i

> realized I

> don't know what it

> means.

>

> doug

>

>

>

> > Methylation is a key process in helping the liver detox, so

> given Sam-e

> > adds some key ingredients to the methylation cycle, it could

> improve liver

> > detox function if it has been over worked with toxins and the

> methylation

> cycle

> > has been diminished.

> >

> > IMHO,

> >

> > Chris

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Chris,

 

 

 

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:22:05 EDT Musiclear writes:

> In a message dated 8/11/2004 1:05:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> writes:

> Chris,

>

> I know of someone, a seizure patient, whose brain MRIs are

> perfectly

> normal--no lesions, and who about 10 years ago was determined as

> having

> toxic levels of mercury poisoning as determined by DMPS.

>

> Did that person continue on the DMPS or other chelating

> protocohl?

 

 

Yes, she took IV DMPS and oral DMSA for a year. Originally her levels

were 22ppb consistant with exposure to industrial levels of hg.

 

 

> Also, a very

> emotional personal with lots of liver qi stagnation, her condition

> was

> exascerbated by kidney and heart yin xu, creating a complex pattern

> of

> deficient and excess heat.

>

> Tquestion to me is, where did teh origin of the pattern start.

> I find

> that metal toxicity can bind liver Qi pretty tight and make a near

> normal person

> more and more emotional over time.

 

 

 

I suspect long term slow leakage from amalgam dental fillings. If I

remember, she had about 10 of them replaced sequencially.

 

 

 

> When she took small doses of pharmaceutical

> grade SAM-e (which at the time had to be imported from Europe, as it

> was

> illegal here), her seizure activity dramatically increased during a

> one

> month trial.

>

> Interesting. I wonder why. As I see it, as a person takes

> Sam-e the

> methylation process is going to increase. This is going to take

> additional

> nutrients to support the accelerated processes including B-6 and

> B-12. One of my

> theories is these nutrients support yin and we know they support the

> nervous

> system.

> So, this person, who was probably deficient in the B's that

> support the

> nervous system took a product that would likely lower these

> nutrients even

> further.

> In addition, taking Sam-e will increase sulfur compounds. One

> of the

> reasons it helps joint pain. As you look at a lot of the chealating

> agents

> commonly used, they are typically sulfur based compounds. I believe

> DMPS and EDTA

> both are. It is possible that the increase in Sam-e, increased

> sulfur

> compounds which started to chelate metal out of his system. I

> believe one of the

> potential side effect of heavy metal toxicity is seizures.

> So a possibility is that his body became even more deficient in

> the

> nutrients needed to support the nervous system at the very time when

> it was being

> contacted by addition heavy metals as they were being lifted by the

> sulfur

> based compounds created by taking the Sam-e.

 

 

I agree, and believe that the SAMe freed much more hg than her liver

could handle.

 

 

 

> Of course non of this may have been at play.

>

>

> Remember, that from a Chinese perspective seizures come

> from liver wind and phegm blocking the heart channel. Of course one

> could conjecture that the SAM-e was reducing the liver fire, but was

> also

> worsening the deficient heat.

>

> It is possible that as a person takes detoxing compounds while

> the toxins

> are being lifted, there is an increase in liver fire without the

> support of

> Yin. I would guess that the B-vits would be critical with this

> person.

>

She was also taking sublingual coenzyme B complex to support her nervous

system.

 

 

 

> Of course this is complete conjecture and without seeing the

> person, it

> would be impossible to know what was really going on.

>

> Comments?

>

> As you mentioned, garlic, a heavy sulfur herb and cilantro are

> metal

> chelators. Another food for chelating is chlorella.

>

>

> How is this person doing now?

 

 

Still very depleted, but SLOWLY making progress. The seizure are still

occuring every 3 or so weeks, but two major issues that are significantly

improved are terrible insomnia and constipation.

 

> Chris

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/11/2004 4:55:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

writes:

Still very depleted, but SLOWLY making progress. The seizure are still

occuring every 3 or so weeks, but two major issues that are significantly

improved are terrible insomnia and constipation.

 

 

I am sure you are taking care of the patterns involved, but I may suggest

potentially adding a couple things.

Given the nature of metals interrupting enzyme function, I may add potent

enzymes. Wobenzymes are decent, but expensive. I have heard enzymes referred

to as spleen Qi in a bottle. I bet she will feel stronger with them.

Also, cholera. Not only does it slowly remove metals, it will likely

toxify blood and liver yin.

 

What do you think?

 

Chris

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> I know in the past, the group has discussed the mechanisms of heavy metal

toxicity and methods of detoxification. But I'm wondering if there has been any

literature or studies of the specific effect of herbs and formulae as detoxing

and chelating agents, much as there has been with herbs used instead of chemo or

detoxing the poisoning effects of chemo. Yehuda L Frischman

Dear Yehuda, One formula I've used with good result in single and combined

presentation of " Stone (metal) Bi " and " Wind Bi " syndromes(Usually with Damp

and/or sometimes with Wei Syndromes) when heavy metal toxicity is suspect, and

even if heavy metals are ruled out by tests, has the following basic

composition, divided into two groups of action, and based on 'Tu Fu Ling Tang'

and 'Quan Bi Tang'. *1) Detoxify Heavy Metal, Clear Wind Heat-Damp,

Dredge Meridians

Tu Fu Ling, GanCao, Fang Ji, Mu Gua, Wei Ling Xian, Shan Ci Gu

*2) Resolve Blood Stasis

Hong Hua, Dang Gui, San Qi

This is available also in concentrated pill form.

I start tonifying in Wei Syndrome, after a little reduction of symptoms.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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