Guest guest Posted August 14, 2004 Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 The owner has his shop down the street from me and I've watched him hand ma= ke his machines. They are still hand made but John (?) no longer does them himself= .. Subsequently they are very well made and sturdy. The one reason to buy Pant= heon is a technical one which I can only try to explain as best I can. Pantheons clic= k back to Zero with every pulse. Cheaper machines will build up charges and electronic har= monics creating micro waves with each pulse that are potentially damaging to the p= atients flesh. One student who was an engineer said this was very important and she said P= antheon was the only thing she would buy. For me, I use electro stem so infrequently I'= ve never bought one. doug , " " <@h.= ...> wrote: > > Slightly off the herb topic... but is there any reason to buy a > pantheon Estimer (vs the one's that are $100-200 cheaper)? I have > heard the electronics' are relatively the same and the only real > advantage is that it has been approved by the FDA(?) or some federal > agency… comments? > > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2004 Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 I have purchased 2 seperate pantheon as well as the cheaper chinese units. In my opinion, the pantheon are better made and I've never had problems with them but had problems with the chinese versions. Brian < wrote: Slightly off the herb topic... but is there any reason to buy a pantheon Estimer (vs the one's that are $100-200 cheaper)? I have heard the electronics' are relatively the same and the only real advantage is that it has been approved by the FDA(?) or some federal agency… comments? - Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2004 Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 , " " <@h...> wrote: > > Slightly off the herb topic... but is there any reason to buy a > pantheon Estimer (vs the one's that are $100-200 cheaper)? I have > heard the electronics' are relatively the same and the only real > advantage is that it has been approved by the FDA(?) or some federal > agency… comments? > > - Jason, I bought a Pantheon machine about 4 years ago. The reason I like it is that A) IT works!! and B) I have never had a patient have an adverse reaction from using estim on even extremely sensitive patients. I have an old machine that I bought when I was in school and it never gets used anymore. I only use the microcurrent setting on the Pantheon which is why I believe I don't have any adverse reactions. Last year I bought another one that has four microcurrent outlets. They both get used every day. For knee problems it is invaluable. Jill Likkel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2004 Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 I have been told that the fact that Pantheon is a U.S. company means you can get units repaired if need be. I've never checked, but if they have a warranty, then you could get it repaired for little or no money during the warranty period. Sheila < Aug 14, 2004 7:09 AM ESTIM Slightly off the herb topic... but is there any reason to buy a pantheon Estimer (vs the one's that are $100-200 cheaper)? I have heard the electronics' are relatively the same and the only real advantage is that it has been approved by the FDA(?) or some federal agency… comments? - Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2004 Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 Subsequently they are very well made and sturdy. The one reason to buy Pant= heon is a technical one which I can only try to explain as best I can. Pantheons clic= k back to Zero with every pulse. Cheaper machines will build up charges and electronic har= monics creating micro waves with each pulse that are potentially damaging to the p= atients flesh. One student who was an engineer said this was very important and she said P= antheon was the only thing she would buy. For me, I use electro stem so infrequently I'= ve never bought one. >>>>>I do not know who the student is but that is not true. While there is some differences in the wave forms from different stimulators, they are mostly very similar (variations of biphasic waves). Also, the claim of microamp is not real as the resistance by the body is not constant anyone that remembers Ohms law knows the current is a function of resistance and volts. I=V/R. The question of zero stim when set at zero is not that important. There is a Chinese stimulator that sells for something like 150$ i think by CI (somthing i cant remember) which has two different circuits running 3 plugs each. This is nice as you can get harmonics when you set a cross pattern. It can also stimulate in a ramp mode which is nice if you are trying to strengthen muscles. The pulse is just as comfortable as the pantheon. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2004 Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 I don't think it's the shape of the wave but that if each pulse grows in strenth then an electoysis effect takes place. As I understand it, this is what Pantheon claims not to do over cheaper machines. doug The following quote is taken from the paper by Yoshiaki Omura printed in Acupuncture and ElectroTherapeutics Res. Int. J., Vol. 12, pp. 201-225, 1987, entitled " Basic Electrical Parameters for Safe and Effective Electro-therapeutics (Electro-acupuncture, TES, TENMS (or TEMS), TENS and Electro-magnetic Field Stimulation with or without Drug Field) for Pain, Neuromuscular Skeletal Problems, and Circulatory Disturbances: Undesirable Electrolysis Phenomena Associated with DC Stimulation or Prolonged Application of Electrical Impulses with Excessively Large Pulse Width. " Prolonged electrical pulse stimulation with excessively wide pulse duration or DC electrical stimulation with a significantly large current may result in the following undesirable electrolysis phenomena: 1) strong acid (HCL) formation around the positive electrode and strong alkaline (NaOH) formation around the negative electrode, which may result in necrosis of tissue around the electrodes, 2) hydrogen gas bubble formation around the negative electrode and oxygen gas bubble formation around the positive electrode as a result of the electrolysis phenomena of water molecules in the body tissue which reduces the effectiveness of the electrical stimulation by decreasing current, as well as 3) breakage of the positive electrode after prolonged application of large DC currents. " With a very slow frequency, we may have excessively wide pulse duration with significantly large current, especially since the needle tip may be the location of the current movement. The 50% duty cycle microcurrent stimulation has been used now for a few years in electro- acupuncture applications, and there have not been widespread reports of electrolysis effects. However, when introducing a new technology into medical practice, a conservative design philosophy is safest and best until the years pass and all technical issues can be examined. The safety of patients is always the priority. Whereas theoretically, a potential problem exists with the use of 50% duty cycle current, it has been the practice of Pantheon Research to design a system that is not in question. The microcurrent waveform used has a pulse time of only .4 milliseconds, even at very low frequencies. This corresponds to a duty cycle of 5% or less. This is analogous to standard pulse times on electro-acupuncture machines and is safe. The illustrations below demonstrate the images of the waveforms as seen on an oscilloscope. , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Subsequently they are very well made and sturdy. The one reason to buy Pant= > heon is a > technical one which I can only try to explain as best I can. Pantheons clic= > k back to Zero > with every pulse. Cheaper machines will build up charges and electronic har= > monics > creating micro waves with each pulse that are potentially damaging to the p= > atients flesh. > One student who was an engineer said this was very important and she said P= > antheon was > the only thing she would buy. For me, I use electro stem so infrequently I'= > ve never bought > one. > >>>>>I do not know who the student is but that is not true. While there is some differences in the wave forms from different stimulators, they are mostly very similar (variations of biphasic waves). > Also, the claim of microamp is not real as the resistance by the body is not constant anyone that remembers Ohms > law knows the current is a function of resistance and volts. I=V/R. > The question of zero stim when set at zero is not that important. > There is a Chinese stimulator that sells for something like 150$ i think by CI (somthing i cant remember) which has two different circuits running 3 plugs each. This is nice as you can get harmonics when you set a cross pattern. It can also stimulate in a ramp mode which is nice if you are trying to strengthen muscles. The pulse is just as comfortable as the pantheon. > Alon > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2004 Report Share Posted August 15, 2004 Hey folks: I originally bought Pantheon estims many years ago for their quality and technical reasons. I just bought some new ones when I increased my number of machines because they are, one, good machines and, two, a very important non-technical reason--the service and followup is excellent when you buy from them. You can talk with John directly if there are any problems. He will also repair old machines at a very good rate--I had my first one repaired and it came as good as new. Misha , Steve Slater <dragonslive@h...> wrote: > Sorry Alon; you are mistaken here. Perfectly SYMMETRICAL biphasic waves > have no net DC current and therefore avoid electrolysis. However, most > older machines and some of the cheaper ones still made produce > ASYMMETRICAL biphasic waves which result in an overall net DC charge > and electrolysis. That is....they produced a greater -ve phase of the > wave than is produced in the positive phase. > > On 16/08/2004, at 1:57 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > > The " possible " problem of electrolysis > > they mention is only a concern when using symmetrical biphasic waves > > (equal +ve and -ve waveform for DC =0) at very low frequencies of > > stimulation for extended periods. > > > > >>>Not biphasic but monophasic. As soon as you use biphasic you > > cancel such effects > > Alon > Electrolysis WAS more of a problem when machines produces asymmetrical > biphasic waves, which give an overall DC current during > stimulation....... > >>>Again the term biphasic means it is not DC and has no DC like > effects. Again also, only with DC stimulation you can get the phasic > effects at the two electrodes which are often very important > therapeutically. > Alon > > Again......biphasic certainly does not mean no DC. DC occurs in > asymmetrical waves by definition. The current may be originally AC in > nature, but if it is an " asymmetrical " wave it results in a DC current. > > Modern machines generally produce SYMMETRICAL biphasic waves today and > therefor no DC/electrolysis. The exception of course is those that > allow the production of asymmetrical bipahsic or DC for specific > therapeutic purposes. > > Best Wishes, > > Dr. Steven J Slater > Practitioner and Acupuncturist > Mobile: 0418 343 545 > chinese_medicine@m... > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2004 Report Share Posted August 15, 2004 In a message dated 8/15/2004 12:37:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: Because the square wave has a period of a DC like stim if it lasts long enough you can get a phasic effects Hi Alon, I have a pretty good understanding of electricity, but have no idea what you are talking about with that statement. Would you mind helping me understand what you said? TIA, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2004 Report Share Posted August 15, 2004 ASYMMETRICAL biphasic waves which result in an overall net DC charge and electrolysis >>>>Sorry but show me any study that shows a phasic effects. I have never seen pH, circulatory, effects on red or white blood cells or skin hardening with biphasic asymmetrical studies. Even if the shift is short the ions equilibrate and thus there is no " overall " phasic effects. Again please point me to a study showing otherwise Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2004 Report Share Posted August 15, 2004 also, why is biphasic asymmetrical stimulation not work with iontophoresis. There is lots of GOOD studies on iontophoresis which clearly show no net polar effects for any biphasic stimulations. If it did this would solve a lot of problems for inotophoresis. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2004 Report Share Posted August 15, 2004 Alon, You have missed the points I made completely. I don't need to show a study on any of this.........I am informing you of basic physics. This is basic stuff in electronics, something that I thought you would understand seeing as you lecture in EA. There is a monophasic waveform but TWO types of biphasic waves. Monophasic wave = net DC charge = electrolysis around needle Asymmetrical biphasic wave = net DC charge = electrolysis around needle Symmetrical biphasic wave = 0 net DC charge = no electrolysis around needle The outdated advice about using postive electrode for this point and negative electrode for that point etc. is a hangover of the days of asymmetrical biphasic stimulation machines. Truly symmetrical biphasic waveforms produced by EA machines is a relatively recent advancement and makes the red and black electrodes completely meaningless in practice. Regardless, a net DC charge of any kind DOES produce electrolyisis around a needle in tissue...........this is basic fact. IF the DC current is sufficient it will burn and damage tissue and the needle. If you don't believe any of this, that is up to you. Research on tissue damage and electrolysis around a needle is commonplace, especially in japanese studies......I don't have time to gather it for you at the moment. If you stimulate tissue with a biphasic asymmetrical wave, one needle will attract negative ions and the other postive ions due to the overall DC current produced....ie you will have a negative and a positive electrode. However, if you use a SYMMETRICAL biphasic wave this will not occur for any noticeable period of time as the positive and negative charges are oscillating rapidly and are even in charge.....ie. no DC net current. Best Wishes, Steve On 16/08/2004, at 4:01 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > ASYMMETRICAL biphasic waves which result in an overall net DC charge > and electrolysis > >>>>Sorry but show me any study that shows a phasic effects. I have > never seen pH, circulatory, effects on red or white blood cells or > skin hardening with biphasic asymmetrical studies. Even if the shift > is short the ions equilibrate and thus there is no " overall " phasic > effects. Again please point me to a study showing otherwise > Alon > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2004 Report Share Posted August 15, 2004 biphasic asymmetrical wave >>>Really, what happens when the polarity switches. I guess the speed of light in which electrons travel is not fast enough for ions to repolarized in the other direction Well, i guess your physics are different than the physics i learned Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2004 Report Share Posted August 15, 2004 The outdated advice about using postive electrode for this point and negative electrode for that point etc. is a hangover of the days of asymmetrical biphasic stimulation machines. Truly symmetrical biphasic waveforms produced by EA machines is a relatively recent advancement and makes the red and black electrodes completely meaningless in practice. >>>>Well almost all the new acustims use a saw-tooth waves and these are not truly symmetrical (or they would not be saw-toothed). Sine waves are not used in acupu stims. The red and black wires have never has any meaning in acustim instruments because asymmetrical waves have always been used. The claims of different effects were always wrong. When i try do get a polar effects i do not use acup stims but rather i often us microTENS which can deliver a monopolar squre wave. Nothing " old " about this and when stim is used to treat fractures for example the electrodes used are often monopolar. Polar effects (when using monopolar, ie pulsed DC)are different as far as their effects on:pH, on circulation and on red and white cells, on tissue hardening, on edema, on nerve excitability and proliferation, on fibroblast proliferation and differentiation among many other effects. Nothing old about trying to use these, except this as not been part of the electroacuncture world. You need to look at other electrotheraputics Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2004 Report Share Posted August 15, 2004 , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > biphasic asymmetrical wave > >>>Really, what happens when the polarity switches. I guess the speed of > light in which electrons travel is not fast enough for ions to repolarized > in the other direction > Well, i guess your physics are different than the physics i learned > Alon I see your point above, Alon, but electrons do not travel at the speed of light throught a wire. They only do so in a (theoretical) vacuum. The wires provide quire a bit of resistence. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2004 Report Share Posted August 16, 2004 What I SAID was that biphasic asymmetrical waves have a net DC current! Even you agree that DC causes electrolysis......unless you still deny that asymmetrical waves have a net DC charge; I don't know why you are arguing about it now. If this current is high enough, even for the tiny amount of time is lasts........... it will damage tissue. >>>>>Again this is not a function of being asymmetrical but a function of the " pulsing " . If one of the direction of stimulation is pulsed with great amplitude in a short time (pulsed) than you can get the polar effects (and i would not use damage because often this can be a positive and useful phenomenon). You do not need the amplitude or the V to be symmetrical to have a 0 net gain. So yes, asymmetrical wave forms, and they are always wave forms, do not have to have a net " DC " effects. None of the acustims that i have seen lately use pulsed depolarizing. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.