Guest guest Posted August 15, 2004 Report Share Posted August 15, 2004 For those of you who, like I, received little or no training in electroacupuncture in school, I recently read Paul Hewitt's textbook " Conceptual Physics " (excellent) about electricity and then attended Alon Marcus' one-day class on EA. Alon was very generous and clear with his knowledge of EA. The class answered many of my questions about EA and I would highly recommend it to anyone who uses EA in their practice. Marian --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.734 / Virus Database: 488 - Release Date: 08/04/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2004 Report Share Posted August 15, 2004 In a message dated 8/15/2004 7:35:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: I see your point above, Alon, but electrons do not travel at the speed of light throught a wire. They only do so in a (theoretical) vacuum. The wires provide quire a bit of resistence. >>>>Correct and even slower in the body, but still enough to cancel any polar effects alon Hi guys, There is a new understanding in physics, well actually it's not that new, just not commonly known. Most people believe electricity is all about electrons moving down a wire. Not really. In truth, " Electron drift " is a minor phenomenon. Very few electrons actually move down the wire. I am not an expert on this, but, the current belief is that the electrons are generally moving between layers in the atoms. It is the change in the pattern that releases the energy that fuels the Walkman or EA machine. When you see lightening of any other spark, it is because there the voltage is strong enough to create what I believe is an electromagnetic path that polarizes the electrons. It is along this electromagnetic path that we see the shift of electrons in their orbit and back again as a spark. Very few electrons actually move from one atom to another. A little hard to grasp at first, but this is the way it is. TTBOMK. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2004 Report Share Posted August 15, 2004 In a message dated 8/15/2004 7:36:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: Chris, square waves are basically a form of a kind of a DC sine wave. ie there is a period of constant amplitude in one direction followed by a constant period in the other direction. A modified square wave is usually monopolar, ie it only stimulates in one directions, then stops, then starts again (only half of the cycle is active) Alon Thanks, CHris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2004 Report Share Posted August 15, 2004 I see your point above, Alon, but electrons do not travel at the speed of light throught a wire. They only do so in a (theoretical) vacuum. The wires provide quire a bit of resistence. >>>>Correct and even slower in the body, but still enough to cancel any polar effects alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2004 Report Share Posted August 15, 2004 Chris, square waves are basically a form of a kind of a DC sine wave. ie there is a period of constant amplitude in one direction followed by a constant period in the other direction. A modified square wave is usually monopolar, ie it only stimulates in one directions, then stops, then starts again (only half of the cycle is active) Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2004 Report Share Posted August 16, 2004 You are right that it repolarises it the other direction; I never suggested it didn't. The fact is, due to the asymmetrical nature of the wave......it does not FULLY repolarise.........thus net DC current travels into the tissue via the needle. What I SAID was that biphasic asymmetrical waves have a net DC current! Even you agree that DC causes electrolysis......unless you still deny that asymmetrical waves have a net DC charge; I don't know why you are arguing about it now. If this current is high enough, even for the tiny amount of time is lasts........... it will damage tissue. Fortunately, we are taught to " Gradually increase " the intensity of stimulation when using these waves to avoid this problem. PS - when I use the term asymmetrical I am referring to the magnitude of the +ve and -ve phases of the wave, NOT the shape (sawtooth, sine etc). Thus asymmetrical waves have a greater magnitude in the negative phase than the positive....giving a DC net current which keeps the needle in a polarised state and continually attracts +ve ions in the tissue to the area around the needle. If this polarisation is at a high intensity.....it will burn the tissue around the needle due to the small surface area the current is transferred via (needle shaft). Sure, this damage is microscopic and useful for some therapies. I NEVER said electrolysis was a particular danger or even undesirable outcome!! I am supplying this information as it is an argument that Pantheon uses to promote both symmetrical biphasic waveforms of their machines and the microamp stimulation capabilities of them. Best Wishes, Steve On 16/08/2004, at 6:38 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > biphasic asymmetrical wave > >>>Really, what happens when the polarity switches. I guess the speed > of > light in which electrons travel is not fast enough for ions to > repolarized > in the other direction > Well, i guess your physics are different than the physics i learned > Alon Dr. Steven J Slater Practitioner and Acupuncturist Mobile: 0418 343 545 chinese_medicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2004 Report Share Posted August 16, 2004 saw-tooth is the SHAPE of the wave phases and is a separate issue from the biphasic or monophasic characteristics of the wave form. > >>>>Well almost all the new acustims use a saw-tooth waves and these > are not > truly symmetrical (or they would not be saw-toothed). On 16/08/2004, at 9:34 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > Chris, > square waves are basically a form of a kind of a DC sine wave. ie > there is a period of constant amplitude in one direction followed by a > constant period in the other direction. A modified square wave is > usually monopolar, ie it only stimulates in one directions, then > stops, then starts again (only half of the cycle is active) > Alon Square waves can be bipahsic and therefore bipolar. It seems to me you have the issues of wave shape and phases very confused. Dr. Steven J Slater Practitioner and Acupuncturist Mobile: 0418 343 545 chinese_medicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2004 Report Share Posted August 16, 2004 saw-tooth is the SHAPE of the wave phases and is a separate issue from the biphasic or monophasic characteristics of the wave form. >>>>>except that all the acupstims are saw-toothed biphasic. I have never seen any therapeutic device that uses saw-tooth do it in a truly symmetrical wave form Square waves can be biphasic and therefore bipolar. It seems to me you have the issues of wave shape and phases very confused. >>>>>>>What is a sine wave if not bipolar. May be you should pay attention alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2004 Report Share Posted August 16, 2004 Asymmetrical wave forms do have net DC by their very definition......this is what makes them non-symmetrical. Only symmetrical wave forms have 0 net DC. I give up on explaining this basic concept and suggest you take this argument to task with a physics textbook. On 17/08/2004, at 1:05 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > So yes, asymmetrical wave forms, and they are always wave forms, do > not have to have a net " DC " effects. None of the acustims that i have > seen lately use pulsed depolarizing. > Alon > Dr. Steven J Slater Practitioner and Acupuncturist Mobile: 0418 343 545 chinese_medicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2004 Report Share Posted August 16, 2004 On 17/08/2004, at 12:44 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > >>>>>except that all the acupstims are saw-toothed biphasic. I have > never seen any therapeutic device that uses saw-tooth do it in a truly > symmetrical wave form All acustims are NOT saw-toothed biphasic!!! Lets do a quick review of some current machines....... Pantheon EA machines Waveform milliampere = symmetrical biphasic Waveform microampere = symmetrical biphasic SQUARE wave Waveform TENS = Asymmetrical biphasic EA2 (Helio medical) Biphasic SQUARE wave with NEGATIVE SPIKE (i.e has a net DC charge!!!) AWQ 104L (Popular chinese) Asymmetrical biphasic SQUARE wave with NEGATIVE SPIKE (i.e another with a net DC charge however this model allows polarity switching) HANS " Bidirectional rectangular waves with zero net DC output " WQ-6F Asymmetrical biphasic G6805-2 Asymmetricall Biphasic (postive square wave, negative triangular spike) ITO ES 160 Symmetrical biphasic rectangular wave I don't see any reference to a sawtooth wave anywhere here and these are the current popular selling models available in the west. From the Pantheon website...... Taken from Basics of Acupuncture, G. Stux and B. Pomeranz, 1998, Springer, pp. 272-273. " Generally the red lead of each pair of wires is positive, and the black is negative. Pulses of electricity are applied to the needles in order to stimulate nerves, with the pulse width being from 0.1 to 1.0 ms in duration (Some stimulators have adjustable pulse width). More expensive, elaborate stimulators use biphasic pulses (negative followed by positive or vice versa) in order to reduce polarization of each needle due to electrolysis. (The negative pulse cleans the electrode of electrolytes deposited by the preceding positive pulse.) If the pulses are perfectly biphasic, then the net DC current is zero and no polarization occurs. Polarization is a nuisance as it raises the electrode resistance over time, thus reducing the intensity of stimulation. Also, it can cause the needle to break off in the tissue. .......Since negative pulses cause an action potential on the nerve, it is important that both needles in a pair receive negative pulses, which is only possible in a biphasic stimulator. The intensity of stimulation is under the control of an intensity knob. In less expensive stimulators in which the biphasic pulses are not perfectly matched (the negative wave is not equal to the positive wave); the negative, black lead will give a stronger needle sensation than the positive, red lead....... " I quote..... " If the pulses are perfectly biphasic, then the net DC current is zero and no polarization occurs " . Perfectly biphasic = symmetrical. Therefore a ASYMMETRICAL biphasic wave has a net DC current and will cause polarization. > Square waves can be biphasic and therefore bipolar. It seems to me you > have the issues of wave shape and phases very confused. > >>>>>>>What is a sine wave if not bipolar. May be you should pay > attention > alon I really wish you would stop putting words in my mouth......when did I say a sine wave is not bipolar??? You obviously have serious issues with comprehension of English and this may be the cause of all this misunderstanding. Regardless, I rest my case here and leave those who are interested to research the topic themselves. Dr. Steven J Slater Practitioner and Acupuncturist Mobile: 0418 343 545 chinese_medicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2004 Report Share Posted August 16, 2004 I don't see any reference to a sawtooth wave anywhere here and these are the current popular selling models available in the west. >>>>Unfortunately you need to actually see the waves to know. Saw-tooth is often written as square. I have put many of these on an oscilloscope they are saw-tooth. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2004 Report Share Posted August 16, 2004 quote..... " If the pulses are perfectly biphasic, then the net DC current is zero and no polarization occurs " . Perfectly biphasic = symmetrical. Therefore a ASYMMETRICAL biphasic wave has a net DC current and will cause polarization. >>>>>>That is simply not true. There are many ways to skin a cat. For example if you look at OMS catalog you will see that the pulsed negative charge in all the asymmetrical biphasic (which are also slopped downwards which by the way makes them a saw-toothed pulse) is at a higher amplitude (ie higher volt) than the longer positive pulse. This is the way many of the so-called asymmetrical biphasic stims deal with this issue. They do not have a DC net effect. You want to tell me that for example the ITO- IC-1107, Pointer F-3, AWQ-104D, E-STIMM II, Fata Point, Nuta-check, as well as the multitude of TENS units all cause tissue DAMAGE or result in needle breakage from " electrolysis. " That is what electrolysis does to needles. If you want to Liston to manufactures be my guest. I have no idea were Stux et al got their info. Also your were the one that equated square wave with bipolar stating that i do not understand what a square wave is. All i was saying is that it does not have to be bipolar. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 For those that are interested here is an article with the ultimate acupuncture (21st century) in which extensive monopolar stimulation was used without harm [PDF] CLINICAL TRIALS OF BIONS FOR THERAPEUTIC ELECTRICAL ... File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML .... to a command by generating a monophasic, capacitively- coupled ... In contrast, in patients without electrical stimulation, muscles ... 5 0 5 10 15 20 pre-stim 6 weeks ... ami.usc.edu/Projects/Bion/docs/IEEE01-Bclin%20FINAL.pdf - Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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