Guest guest Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 When it comes to memorizing herbs, there are several attributes of importance to commit to memory listed below. And when I say commit to memory, I mean be able to recall in a real life scenario. If someone says " ku shen, quick, what are the entering channels and you can't answer " , that proves nothing. If you see a patient with vaginal itching due to dampheat in the liver channel and you think ku shen, that is what counts. Contextual memory is the only true value of memory for practical purposes. Mere photographic recall is a nice parlor trick, but I am hardly convinced that those possessed of it always make the best herbalists. Category Primary function Secondary functions Taste temp Indications Now you could just painstakingly memorize these lists of things and then forget them again just as quickly. But we always here students say its not till they use something that they remember it. Well, its easier to use a point than it is to use an herb in class. So people learn points better. Practical classes like points are inherently more PBL because one is working on a problem - where is the point , what past knowledge do I need to locate it, etc. But consider even the most rote information about herbs that is considered most difficult to memorize - entering channels, temp and flavor. very few recall all of this data off the top of their heads even though they study those lists over and over again. Now construct a case that calls for an herb of particular flavor, temp, function. Let the students identify the herbs that have these properties in common and then compare and contrast to choose the best one. Those students will always remember the attributes of those herbs they compared and contrasted because they were engaged in a problem. They learned by doing. One could design cases to elicit any data one chose. This brings me back around again to databases in this process. When one has a problem, one needs to access the data to solve the problem. Usually one then remembers the data forever (PBL students often do worse on standard exams because they learn less data in the first place). The old fashioned way is to use books. So in the example above, say I need an herb that transforms phlegm and is used for a heat cough, is cooling and sweet and bitter or spicy, but used in acute cases. I have to consider what categories such an herb might be in. This might include transform phlegm, stop cough, regulate qi, transform dampness, drain dampness, release exterior, supplement yin. Then within one or more of those categories, I will need to identify a cool herb that won't damage fluids and is sweet and nourishing but also bitter to dry or spicy to disperse. Chuan bei mu jumps to my mind and it indeed fits the bill. But I could not have pulled that answer from my head in herbs 1 in week 3. But students could solve that problem with either books or using a boolean search in a comprehensive database of herbs. And in this process you would not only identify the solution, but also identify why others were not the solution. Questions could be structured to focus on such matters as why certain classes of herbs did not fit the bill. So the herbs in cold phlegm were ruled out because they are warming, same for most of the damp transforming and qi regulating herbs. None of the cooling herbs in either category also affect phlegm. What about fu ling. Neutral to cool, sweet, used for phlegm. Used in phlegm-heat as in qing qi hua tan tang. too close to call. None of the yin tonics are bitter or spicy. So the process can cause students to do all that comparing and contrasting we all insist is so important but in an engaged real world scenario. Herbal Tutor software include games that basically generate random problems to solve. One uses clues to narrow a search for herbs and choose the best answer. At first, if one had not studied herbs at all in a pure PBL environment, you would have to use books, but after a while, you will remember the details. the software determines when you mastered the material in a category and then moves on to quiz new data. One can alternate between studying the herbs and playing the games until one reaches competency. But instead of just drilling the rote material over and over again until it is memorized, one uses the games to stimulate recall instead. Learning theory suggests this works much better for practical long term recall of data. And it stores the data in a way that is much more relevant to practice than pnemonics or cute pictures or dirty limericks. Chinese Herbs FAX: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 _____ Sunday, August 22, 2004 1:46 PM cha PBL example When it comes to memorizing herbs, there are several attributes of importance to commit to memory listed below. And when I say commit to memory, I mean be able to recall in a real life scenario. If someone says " ku shen, quick, what are the entering channels and you can't answer " , that proves nothing. If you see a patient with vaginal itching due to dampheat in the liver channel and you think ku shen, that is what counts. Contextual memory is the only true value of memory for practical purposes. Mere photographic recall is a nice parlor trick, (Jason) - I think the real recall from Chinese herbalist is far beyond a mere parlor trick, because they can translate their knowledge into real formulas. but I am hardly convinced that those possessed of it always make the best herbalists. Like you said the basic info (below) is essential - so that is what makes a good herbalist. I guess the debate solely relies on how one puts this information into one's brain. If we agree that essential knowledge (memorized) is essential what do we say about an 'herblaist' who doesn't have this. Should they be in practice, should they have a license? This is another topic.. So how do we get this stuff in? Just from observation it is obvious that Chinese have this information, which makes the logical place to look for a solution there. American's do not - we are doing something wrong. Historically, Chinese herbalists (in training) memorized herbal text's of teachers before they even studied with them (i.e. SHL). I think the major problem is always looking for a short cut (not putting the work in) - rationalizing that 'we can always look it up later' or whatever. Computer game based learning is not timed tested nor research tested, therefore still a potential pitfall shortcut. There are many factors of memorization that get engrained into the psyche than just the raw data. For example, the most important information, IMO, are combinations and relationships of herbs within formulas. This is obtained by memorizing formulas. When one can recall all the ingredients at the drop of hat, on the surface this might be akin to some parlor trick. The real value, IMO, lies under the surface where during that process of memorization neural links were made and patterns are engrained/ observed. We must realize that the Asian mind works differently than the western mind (at least according to the book 'geography of thought' and other research). They make sense of things through relationships not through reductionism. They see herb functions as related to other herbs not as individual entities; this is consistent with all research I have read about the Asian mind. Therefore when we study their medicine IMO we must try to grasp their underlying thought process. Can such a computer based linear western developed program really give us a realistic opportunity to grasp the essence of Chinese herbalism. I am for one skeptical. Why do we try to fix what is not broken? Why do we always want the easy way out? Can computer games substitute for actual hard work? Maybe or maybe not. But it is a fact that the best herbalists have the essential information in their heads. One can only ask how they got it and try to replicate this. When I see a generation of bad ass herbalist trained in some other method, that doesn't require memorizing basic information, then I may change my mind. Category Primary function Secondary functions Taste temp Indications Now you could just painstakingly memorize these lists of things and then forget them again just as quickly. But we always here students say its not till they use something that they remember it. (Jason) - But again the question is how much ground can one cover with JUST case based learning? But consider even the most rote information about herbs that is considered most difficult to memorize - entering channels, temp and flavor. very few recall all of this data off the top of their heads even though they study those lists over and over again. (Jason) Yes, but actually my experience has been that the people that say they can't remember 'stuff', are most likely sitting on the beach drinking margaritas instead of studying. These students rarely put in the time except looking at the material (many times the zoo cards) the night before the test. Now construct a case that calls for an herb of particular flavor, temp, function. Let the students identify the herbs that have these properties in common and then compare and contrast to choose the best one. Those students will always remember the attributes of those herbs they compared and contrasted because they were engaged in a problem. They learned by doing. One could design cases to elicit any data one chose. (Jason) I agree 100% that people will remember better with this style (single herbs testing that is) - But what lacks is the gestalt of writing formulas, and this is more involved. This brings me back around again to databases in this process. When one has a problem, one needs to access the data to solve the problem. Usually one then remembers the data forever (PBL students often do worse on standard exams because they learn less data in the first place). The old fashioned way is to use books. So in the example above, say I need an herb that transforms phlegm and is used for a heat cough, is cooling and sweet and bitter or spicy, but used in acute cases. I have to consider what categories such an herb might be in. This might include transform phlegm, stop cough, regulate qi, transform dampness, drain dampness, release exterior, supplement yin. Then within one or more of those categories, I will need to identify a cool herb that won't damage fluids and is sweet and nourishing but also bitter to dry or spicy to disperse. Chuan bei mu jumps to my mind and it indeed fits the bill. But I could not have pulled that answer from my head in herbs 1 in week 3. But students could solve that problem with either books or using a boolean search in a comprehensive database of herbs. And in this process you would not only identify the solution, but also identify why others were not the solution. (Jason) I am unclear how a Boolean search shows how others were not the solution. Questions could be structured to focus on such matters as why certain classes of herbs did not fit the bill. So the herbs in cold phlegm were ruled out because they are warming, same for most of the damp transforming and qi regulating herbs. None of the cooling herbs in either category also affect phlegm. What about fu ling. Neutral to cool, sweet, used for phlegm. Used in phlegm-heat as in qing qi hua tan tang. too close to call. None of the yin tonics are bitter or spicy. So the process can cause students to do all that comparing and contrasting we all insist is so important but in an engaged real world scenario. Herbal Tutor software include games that basically generate random problems to solve. One uses clues to narrow a search for herbs and choose the best answer. At first, if one had not studied herbs at all in a pure PBL environment, you would have to use books, but after a while, you will remember the details. (Jason) Seems like a slow road to hoe if the basic information is not memorized first. the software determines when you mastered the material in a category and then moves on to quiz new data. One can alternate between studying the herbs and playing the games until one reaches competency. But instead of just drilling the rote material over and over again until it is memorized, one uses the games to stimulate recall instead. Learning theory suggests this works much better for practical long term recall of data. Again I have to say, the Chinese seem to have no problem with long-term memory, and I doubt they had any computer games. Just good old fashion hard work. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 I'll give you a real life scenario. Given the crop of TCM students in the U.S. today the students would take your Herbs 1 test and 85-90% would not pass without the aid of a textbook . 3 months later, only 10% will still be in school. The Bensky school works with PBL because they only accept the cream of the crop. The same can be said of medical schools. What percentage of TCM students do you really believe are 1) extremely self motivated and 2) are bright enough to deal with both memorization (on their own) and case based study? Sure. It will work in an elite environment with small classes and constant exposure to a clinical environment. (SIOM) But given the economic realities of the current TCM schools this will never happen. Warren Sheir -wrote: > When it comes to memorizing herbs, there are several attributes of > importance to commit to memory listed below. And when I say commit to > memory, I mean be able to recall in a real life scenario. If someone > says " ku shen, quick, what are the entering channels and you can't > answer " , that proves nothing. If you see a patient with vaginal > itching due to dampheat in the liver channel and you think ku shen, > that is what counts. Contextual memory is the only true value of > memory for practical purposes. Mere photographic recall is a nice > parlor trick, but I am hardly convinced that those possessed of it > always make the best herbalists. > > Category > > Primary function > > Secondary functions > > Taste > > temp > > Indications > > Now you could just painstakingly memorize these lists of things and > then forget them again just as quickly. But we always here students > say its not till they use something that they remember it. Well, its > easier to use a point than it is to use an herb in class. So people > learn points better. Practical classes like points are inherently more > PBL because one is working on a problem - where is the point , what > past knowledge do I need to locate it, etc. > > But consider even the most rote information about herbs that is > considered most difficult to memorize - entering channels, temp and > flavor. very few recall all of this data off the top of their heads > even though they study those lists over and over again. Now construct > a case that calls for an herb of particular flavor, temp, function. > Let the students identify the herbs that have these properties in > common and then compare and contrast to choose the best one. Those > students will always remember the attributes of those herbs they > compared and contrasted because they were engaged in a problem. They > learned by doing. One could design cases to elicit any data one chose. > > This brings me back around again to databases in this process. When > one has a problem, one needs to access the data to solve the problem. > Usually one then remembers the data forever (PBL students often do > worse on standard exams because they learn less data in the first > place). The old fashioned way is to use books. So in the example > above, say I need an herb that transforms phlegm and is used for a heat > cough, is cooling and sweet and bitter or spicy, but used in acute > cases. I have to consider what categories such an herb might be in. > This might include transform phlegm, stop cough, regulate qi, transform > dampness, drain dampness, release exterior, supplement yin. Then > within one or more of those categories, I will need to identify a cool > herb that won't damage fluids and is sweet and nourishing but also > bitter to dry or spicy to disperse. Chuan bei mu jumps to my mind and > it indeed fits the bill. > > But I could not have pulled that answer from my head in herbs 1 in week > 3. But students could solve that problem with either books or using a > boolean search in a comprehensive database of herbs. And in this > process you would not only identify the solution, but also identify why > others were not the solution. Questions could be structured to focus > on such matters as why certain classes of herbs did not fit the bill. > So the herbs in cold phlegm were ruled out because they are warming, > same for most of the damp transforming and qi regulating herbs. None > of the cooling herbs in either category also affect phlegm. What about > fu ling. Neutral to cool, sweet, used for phlegm. Used in phlegm- heat > as in qing qi hua tan tang. too close to call. None of the yin tonics > are bitter or spicy. So the process can cause students to do all that > comparing and contrasting we all insist is so important but in an > engaged real world scenario. > > Herbal Tutor software include games that basically generate random > problems to solve. One uses clues to narrow a search for herbs and > choose the best answer. At first, if one had not studied herbs at all > in a pure PBL environment, you would have to use books, but after a > while, you will remember the details. the software determines when you > mastered the material in a category and then moves on to quiz new data. > One can alternate between studying the herbs and playing the games > until one reaches competency. But instead of just drilling the rote > material over and over again until it is memorized, one uses the games > to stimulate recall instead. Learning theory suggests this works much > better for practical long term recall of data. And it stores the data > in a way that is much more relevant to practice than pnemonics or cute > pictures or dirty limericks. > > > > > Chinese Herbs > > > FAX: > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Furthermore, Chinese have used Case based learning for some time, one way is by memorizing formulas. Each formulas is essentially a time tested case, by memorized the ingredients, indications, etc one gains oodles of information on many levels and has that info imbedded. With basic information one can then analyze other case studies and extract essential information. - I guess we differ in that you are saying that you get the basic information through the cases and I say you get the next level of information through case studies. Correct? Also, doing rounds in clinics is case based. In China, one memorizes knowledge and then see's 100's if not 1000's of patients. But where would they be without the basic data in this process? This actually goes into a current debate, should one start clinic the 1st semester or 3rd or 4th semester. As you might guess, I vote, if the hours are the same, for starting later. Because the more knowledge one has obtained prior, the more one can get out of the clinic. One can sit and watch someone write formulas for months and not understand anything, but once they understand the basics the curve just exponentially rises. Comments? - _____ Sunday, August 22, 2004 1:46 PM cha PBL example When it comes to memorizing herbs, there are several attributes of importance to commit to memory listed below. And when I say commit to memory, I mean be able to recall in a real life scenario. If someone says " ku shen, quick, what are the entering channels and you can't answer " , that proves nothing. If you see a patient with vaginal itching due to dampheat in the liver channel and you think ku shen, that is what counts. Contextual memory is the only true value of memory for practical purposes. Mere photographic recall is a nice parlor trick, but I am hardly convinced that those possessed of it always make the best herbalists. Category Primary function Secondary functions Taste temp Indications Now you could just painstakingly memorize these lists of things and then forget them again just as quickly. But we always here students say its not till they use something that they remember it. Well, its easier to use a point than it is to use an herb in class. So people learn points better. Practical classes like points are inherently more PBL because one is working on a problem - where is the point , what past knowledge do I need to locate it, etc. But consider even the most rote information about herbs that is considered most difficult to memorize - entering channels, temp and flavor. very few recall all of this data off the top of their heads even though they study those lists over and over again. Now construct a case that calls for an herb of particular flavor, temp, function. Let the students identify the herbs that have these properties in common and then compare and contrast to choose the best one. Those students will always remember the attributes of those herbs they compared and contrasted because they were engaged in a problem. They learned by doing. One could design cases to elicit any data one chose. This brings me back around again to databases in this process. When one has a problem, one needs to access the data to solve the problem. Usually one then remembers the data forever (PBL students often do worse on standard exams because they learn less data in the first place). The old fashioned way is to use books. So in the example above, say I need an herb that transforms phlegm and is used for a heat cough, is cooling and sweet and bitter or spicy, but used in acute cases. I have to consider what categories such an herb might be in. This might include transform phlegm, stop cough, regulate qi, transform dampness, drain dampness, release exterior, supplement yin. Then within one or more of those categories, I will need to identify a cool herb that won't damage fluids and is sweet and nourishing but also bitter to dry or spicy to disperse. Chuan bei mu jumps to my mind and it indeed fits the bill. But I could not have pulled that answer from my head in herbs 1 in week 3. But students could solve that problem with either books or using a boolean search in a comprehensive database of herbs. And in this process you would not only identify the solution, but also identify why others were not the solution. Questions could be structured to focus on such matters as why certain classes of herbs did not fit the bill. So the herbs in cold phlegm were ruled out because they are warming, same for most of the damp transforming and qi regulating herbs. None of the cooling herbs in either category also affect phlegm. What about fu ling. Neutral to cool, sweet, used for phlegm. Used in phlegm-heat as in qing qi hua tan tang. too close to call. None of the yin tonics are bitter or spicy. So the process can cause students to do all that comparing and contrasting we all insist is so important but in an engaged real world scenario. Herbal Tutor software include games that basically generate random problems to solve. One uses clues to narrow a search for herbs and choose the best answer. At first, if one had not studied herbs at all in a pure PBL environment, you would have to use books, but after a while, you will remember the details. the software determines when you mastered the material in a category and then moves on to quiz new data. One can alternate between studying the herbs and playing the games until one reaches competency. But instead of just drilling the rote material over and over again until it is memorized, one uses the games to stimulate recall instead. Learning theory suggests this works much better for practical long term recall of data. And it stores the data in a way that is much more relevant to practice than pnemonics or cute pictures or dirty limericks. Chinese Herbs FAX: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 _____ Sunday, August 22, 2004 1:46 PM cha PBL example When it comes to memorizing herbs, there are several attributes of importance to commit to memory listed below. And when I say commit to memory, I mean be able to recall in a real life scenario. If someone says " ku shen, quick, what are the entering channels and you can't answer " , that proves nothing. If you see a patient with vaginal itching due to dampheat in the liver channel and you think ku shen, that is what counts. * (Jason)Yes this is true. but just as important are the relationships of the herbs in the formulas. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 With immense respect I say this fellas. Don't go too far in thinking who should or should not practice herbalism, some of the best don't always get results, and, we may exclude brilliant students from entering by intimidation. Also, there is much folk wisdom to learn from, eg an asian mom who gua sha's her kid's back and goes out to fetch her a gan mao tea(-at the right time!). Our medicine should eventually be that common place and natural, not the exclusive realm of the TCM Guilds, altho there will always be need of experts. Again, I am grateful, and have all the respect in the world for the knowledge and experience of those on this list. A good teacher's advice is priceless and lifesaving. wrote: _____ Sunday, August 22, 2004 1:46 PM cha PBL example When it comes to memorizing herbs, there are several attributes of importance to commit to memory listed below. And when I say commit to memory, I mean be able to recall in a real life scenario. If someone says " ku shen, quick, what are the entering channels and you can't answer " , that proves nothing. If you see a patient with vaginal itching due to dampheat in the liver channel and you think ku shen, that is what counts. Contextual memory is the only true value of memory for practical purposes. Mere photographic recall is a nice parlor trick, (Jason) - I think the real recall from Chinese herbalist is far beyond a mere parlor trick, because they can translate their knowledge into real formulas. but I am hardly convinced that those possessed of it always make the best herbalists. Like you said the basic info (below) is essential - so that is what makes a good herbalist. I guess the debate solely relies on how one puts this information into one's brain. If we agree that essential knowledge (memorized) is essential what do we say about an 'herblaist' who doesn't have this. Should they be in practice, should they have a license? This is another topic.. So how do we get this stuff in? Just from observation it is obvious that Chinese have this information, which makes the logical place to look for a solution there. American's do not - we are doing something wrong. Historically, Chinese herbalists (in training) memorized herbal text's of teachers before they even studied with them (i.e. SHL). I think the major problem is always looking for a short cut (not putting the work in) - rationalizing that 'we can always look it up later' or whatever. Computer game based learning is not timed tested nor research tested, therefore still a potential pitfall shortcut. There are many factors of memorization that get engrained into the psyche than just the raw data. For example, the most important information, IMO, are combinations and relationships of herbs within formulas. This is obtained by memorizing formulas. When one can recall all the ingredients at the drop of hat, on the surface this might be akin to some parlor trick. The real value, IMO, lies under the surface where during that process of memorization neural links were made and patterns are engrained/ observed. We must realize that the Asian mind works differently than the western mind (at least according to the book 'geography of thought' and other research). They make sense of things through relationships not through reductionism. They see herb functions as related to other herbs not as individual entities; this is consistent with all research I have read about the Asian mind. Therefore when we study their medicine IMO we must try to grasp their underlying thought process. Can such a computer based linear western developed program really give us a realistic opportunity to grasp the essence of Chinese herbalism. I am for one skeptical. Why do we try to fix what is not broken? Why do we always want the easy way out? Can computer games substitute for actual hard work? Maybe or maybe not. But it is a fact that the best herbalists have the essential information in their heads. One can only ask how they got it and try to replicate this. When I see a generation of bad ass herbalist trained in some other method, that doesn't require memorizing basic information, then I may change my mind. Category Primary function Secondary functions Taste temp Indications Now you could just painstakingly memorize these lists of things and then forget them again just as quickly. But we always here students say its not till they use something that they remember it. (Jason) - But again the question is how much ground can one cover with JUST case based learning? But consider even the most rote information about herbs that is considered most difficult to memorize - entering channels, temp and flavor. very few recall all of this data off the top of their heads even though they study those lists over and over again. (Jason) Yes, but actually my experience has been that the people that say they can't remember 'stuff', are most likely sitting on the beach drinking margaritas instead of studying. These students rarely put in the time except looking at the material (many times the zoo cards) the night before the test. Now construct a case that calls for an herb of particular flavor, temp, function. Let the students identify the herbs that have these properties in common and then compare and contrast to choose the best one. Those students will always remember the attributes of those herbs they compared and contrasted because they were engaged in a problem. They learned by doing. One could design cases to elicit any data one chose. (Jason) I agree 100% that people will remember better with this style (single herbs testing that is) - But what lacks is the gestalt of writing formulas, and this is more involved. This brings me back around again to databases in this process. When one has a problem, one needs to access the data to solve the problem. Usually one then remembers the data forever (PBL students often do worse on standard exams because they learn less data in the first place). The old fashioned way is to use books. So in the example above, say I need an herb that transforms phlegm and is used for a heat cough, is cooling and sweet and bitter or spicy, but used in acute cases. I have to consider what categories such an herb might be in. This might include transform phlegm, stop cough, regulate qi, transform dampness, drain dampness, release exterior, supplement yin. Then within one or more of those categories, I will need to identify a cool herb that won't damage fluids and is sweet and nourishing but also bitter to dry or spicy to disperse. Chuan bei mu jumps to my mind and it indeed fits the bill. But I could not have pulled that answer from my head in herbs 1 in week 3. But students could solve that problem with either books or using a boolean search in a comprehensive database of herbs. And in this process you would not only identify the solution, but also identify why others were not the solution. (Jason) I am unclear how a Boolean search shows how others were not the solution. Questions could be structured to focus on such matters as why certain classes of herbs did not fit the bill. So the herbs in cold phlegm were ruled out because they are warming, same for most of the damp transforming and qi regulating herbs. None of the cooling herbs in either category also affect phlegm. What about fu ling. Neutral to cool, sweet, used for phlegm. Used in phlegm-heat as in qing qi hua tan tang. too close to call. None of the yin tonics are bitter or spicy. So the process can cause students to do all that comparing and contrasting we all insist is so important but in an engaged real world scenario. Herbal Tutor software include games that basically generate random problems to solve. One uses clues to narrow a search for herbs and choose the best answer. At first, if one had not studied herbs at all in a pure PBL environment, you would have to use books, but after a while, you will remember the details. (Jason) Seems like a slow road to hoe if the basic information is not memorized first. the software determines when you mastered the material in a category and then moves on to quiz new data. One can alternate between studying the herbs and playing the games until one reaches competency. But instead of just drilling the rote material over and over again until it is memorized, one uses the games to stimulate recall instead. Learning theory suggests this works much better for practical long term recall of data. Again I have to say, the Chinese seem to have no problem with long-term memory, and I doubt they had any computer games. Just good old fashion hard work. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 I see some issues in comparing our herb education with those of our Chinese teachers and collegues. The first is that Chinese learning is heavily rote memorization oriented. The Chinese we see are doctors because they were able to memorize for tests. This includes the BIG ONE, the test at the end of high school. They also no doubt studied their butts off as well and are some of the smartest people to come out of China. And, again, the form of their testing is memorization. (Some have said that because of the nature of the Chinese writing form that it is more conducive to memorization. I believe there was some sort of testing with stroke patients... maybe just an urban myth.) The second issue is duhhh... the language where words don't mean anything to us. I'll mention again my friend who explained to me a little 10 word poem on Bai Hu Tang (or was it Si Wu Tang?). There was a bear, a tree and it all made so much sense. Remember you can bend the tones of most of the words to have convenient alternative meanings. How much easier it would be if we were studying cucumber, elm bark, dandelion (whoops) instead of da qing ye, mu xiang etc... I'm not suggesting a common English or a Latin identification but I say lets give ourselves and our students a little credit for learning as much as we do in a foreign tongue. Actually, I would suggest we start our students by learning herb formulas along with Zang-Fu and tackle individual herbs, including the more obscure ones, in the higher levels. By the last year all of the herbs would be covered but there would be 3 or 4 years of formula discussion and testing. In that time individual herbs would be covered but in a diagnostic and treatment context. I see that many students don't understand how and why formulas are made until their last year or semester of clinic. Except for a little Dui Yao and a brief discussion of King, Minister etc... no one really explains anything till the clinic and even then... The one exception might be David Cohen's intro classes at Yo-San. When I first saw what he was doing I admit I was appalled but more and more I see it makes a lot of sense. From what I can see the Yo-San students seem to do well with formulas. But you know, it just ain't gonna happen... doug , " " <@c...> wrote: > > > > > _____ > > [@c...] > Sunday, August 22, 2004 1:46 PM > cha > PBL example > > > > When it comes to memorizing herbs, there are several attributes of > importance to commit to memory listed below. And when I say commit to > memory, I mean be able to recall in a real life scenario. If someone > says " ku shen, quick, what are the entering channels and you can't > answer " , that proves nothing. If you see a patient with vaginal > itching due to dampheat in the liver channel and you think ku shen, > that is what counts. > > > > * (Jason)Yes this is true. but just as important are the relationships > of the herbs in the formulas. > > > > - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 _____ mystir [ykcul_ritsym] Sunday, August 22, 2004 5:18 PM RE: PBL example With immense respect I say this fellas. Don't go too far in thinking who should or should not practice herbalism, some of the best don't always get results, and, we may exclude brilliant students from entering by intimidation. Also, there is much folk wisdom to learn from, eg an asian mom who gua sha's her kid's back and goes out to fetch her a gan mao tea(-at the right time!). Our medicine should eventually be that common place and natural, not the exclusive realm of the TCM Guilds, altho there will always be need of experts. Again, I am grateful, and have all the respect in the world for the knowledge and experience of those on this list. A good teacher's advice is priceless and lifesaving. [Jason] I am unclear what this is in reference to; But I see a huge difference between some folk remedies that a mom might use on a child and establishing a CM profession that is treating everything from common colds to very complex diseases. As much knowledge as there is in Asia for the common (wo)man, there is still a large divide between this and doctors who actually practice medicine. Yes promote easy to do folk remedies, but that is a far cry from diagnosising and writing an herbal formula for someone who is really sick. Therefore I do think it is important for the profession to patrol (on some level, albeit education institutions) who can and cannot call themselves a Chinese Herbalist. To think otherwise is devaluing what we do. I.e. look what happen to the naturopathic community when they allowed people to get their degrees through the mail. I don't have the answer and never claimed to in previous posts, but I will say if someone takes a patent class in acupuncture school they shouldn't be able to call themselves a Chinese herbalist (hey but that is just me). - wrote: _____ Sunday, August 22, 2004 1:46 PM cha PBL example When it comes to memorizing herbs, there are several attributes of importance to commit to memory listed below. And when I say commit to memory, I mean be able to recall in a real life scenario. If someone says " ku shen, quick, what are the entering channels and you can't answer " , that proves nothing. If you see a patient with vaginal itching due to dampheat in the liver channel and you think ku shen, that is what counts. Contextual memory is the only true value of memory for practical purposes. Mere photographic recall is a nice parlor trick, (Jason) - I think the real recall from Chinese herbalist is far beyond a mere parlor trick, because they can translate their knowledge into real formulas. but I am hardly convinced that those possessed of it always make the best herbalists. Like you said the basic info (below) is essential - so that is what makes a good herbalist. I guess the debate solely relies on how one puts this information into one's brain. If we agree that essential knowledge (memorized) is essential what do we say about an 'herblaist' who doesn't have this. Should they be in practice, should they have a license? This is another topic.. So how do we get this stuff in? Just from observation it is obvious that Chinese have this information, which makes the logical place to look for a solution there. American's do not - we are doing something wrong. Historically, Chinese herbalists (in training) memorized herbal text's of teachers before they even studied with them (i.e. SHL). I think the major problem is always looking for a short cut (not putting the work in) - rationalizing that 'we can always look it up later' or whatever. Computer game based learning is not timed tested nor research tested, therefore still a potential pitfall shortcut. There are many factors of memorization that get engrained into the psyche than just the raw data. For example, the most important information, IMO, are combinations and relationships of herbs within formulas. This is obtained by memorizing formulas. When one can recall all the ingredients at the drop of hat, on the surface this might be akin to some parlor trick. The real value, IMO, lies under the surface where during that process of memorization neural links were made and patterns are engrained/ observed. We must realize that the Asian mind works differently than the western mind (at least according to the book 'geography of thought' and other research). They make sense of things through relationships not through reductionism. They see herb functions as related to other herbs not as individual entities; this is consistent with all research I have read about the Asian mind. Therefore when we study their medicine IMO we must try to grasp their underlying thought process. Can such a computer based linear western developed program really give us a realistic opportunity to grasp the essence of Chinese herbalism. I am for one skeptical. Why do we try to fix what is not broken? Why do we always want the easy way out? Can computer games substitute for actual hard work? Maybe or maybe not. But it is a fact that the best herbalists have the essential information in their heads. One can only ask how they got it and try to replicate this. When I see a generation of bad ass herbalist trained in some other method, that doesn't require memorizing basic information, then I may change my mind. Category Primary function Secondary functions Taste temp Indications Now you could just painstakingly memorize these lists of things and then forget them again just as quickly. But we always here students say its not till they use something that they remember it. (Jason) - But again the question is how much ground can one cover with JUST case based learning? But consider even the most rote information about herbs that is considered most difficult to memorize - entering channels, temp and flavor. very few recall all of this data off the top of their heads even though they study those lists over and over again. (Jason) Yes, but actually my experience has been that the people that say they can't remember 'stuff', are most likely sitting on the beach drinking margaritas instead of studying. These students rarely put in the time except looking at the material (many times the zoo cards) the night before the test. Now construct a case that calls for an herb of particular flavor, temp, function. Let the students identify the herbs that have these properties in common and then compare and contrast to choose the best one. Those students will always remember the attributes of those herbs they compared and contrasted because they were engaged in a problem. They learned by doing. One could design cases to elicit any data one chose. (Jason) I agree 100% that people will remember better with this style (single herbs testing that is) - But what lacks is the gestalt of writing formulas, and this is more involved. This brings me back around again to databases in this process. When one has a problem, one needs to access the data to solve the problem. Usually one then remembers the data forever (PBL students often do worse on standard exams because they learn less data in the first place). The old fashioned way is to use books. So in the example above, say I need an herb that transforms phlegm and is used for a heat cough, is cooling and sweet and bitter or spicy, but used in acute cases. I have to consider what categories such an herb might be in. This might include transform phlegm, stop cough, regulate qi, transform dampness, drain dampness, release exterior, supplement yin. Then within one or more of those categories, I will need to identify a cool herb that won't damage fluids and is sweet and nourishing but also bitter to dry or spicy to disperse. Chuan bei mu jumps to my mind and it indeed fits the bill. But I could not have pulled that answer from my head in herbs 1 in week 3. But students could solve that problem with either books or using a boolean search in a comprehensive database of herbs. And in this process you would not only identify the solution, but also identify why others were not the solution. (Jason) I am unclear how a Boolean search shows how others were not the solution. Questions could be structured to focus on such matters as why certain classes of herbs did not fit the bill. So the herbs in cold phlegm were ruled out because they are warming, same for most of the damp transforming and qi regulating herbs. None of the cooling herbs in either category also affect phlegm. What about fu ling. Neutral to cool, sweet, used for phlegm. Used in phlegm-heat as in qing qi hua tan tang. too close to call. None of the yin tonics are bitter or spicy. So the process can cause students to do all that comparing and contrasting we all insist is so important but in an engaged real world scenario. Herbal Tutor software include games that basically generate random problems to solve. One uses clues to narrow a search for herbs and choose the best answer. At first, if one had not studied herbs at all in a pure PBL environment, you would have to use books, but after a while, you will remember the details. (Jason) Seems like a slow road to hoe if the basic information is not memorized first. the software determines when you mastered the material in a category and then moves on to quiz new data. One can alternate between studying the herbs and playing the games until one reaches competency. But instead of just drilling the rote material over and over again until it is memorized, one uses the games to stimulate recall instead. Learning theory suggests this works much better for practical long term recall of data. Again I have to say, the Chinese seem to have no problem with long-term memory, and I doubt they had any computer games. Just good old fashion hard work. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Curt and I designed the Herbal Tutor software based on problem-based learning and specifically to optimize both short and long-term memory. By creating games that require the user to select herb answers in the same way that one would make choices in the clinic simulates the PBL style of learning. Moreover, there are different timing and repetition patterns that optimize short term memory and long term memory. First, questions are presented until the user's short-term memory is trained, then questions are presented in a pattern that optimize long-term memory. We've observed that students who use this software retain information far longer than old-fashioned rote memorization using flash-card style quizzing, for example, or by requiring students to simply regurgitate all of the clinical data on a specific herb - this is not how one thinks in the clinic. Instead, one needs to be able to recall all of the herbs that have certain properties, and compare their appropriateness in the case at hand. This is closer to how the Herb Tutor Identification games work. ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org > Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:46:10 -0700 > < >PBL example > >Herbal Tutor software include games that basically generate random >problems to solve. One uses clues to narrow a search for herbs and >choose the best answer. At first, if one had not studied herbs at all >in a pure PBL environment, you would have to use books, but after a >while, you will remember the details. the software determines when you >mastered the material in a category and then moves on to quiz new data. > One can alternate between studying the herbs and playing the games >until one reaches competency. But instead of just drilling the rote >material over and over again until it is memorized, one uses the games >to stimulate recall instead. Learning theory suggests this works much >better for practical long term recall of data. And it stores the data >in a way that is much more relevant to practice than pnemonics or cute >pictures or dirty limericks. > > >Chinese Herbs > > >FAX: ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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