Guest guest Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 > >prescribing. I sometimes feel compelled to reassure my > >patients that I don't make much on the products I sell but I > >would feel much better about just writing the prescript like > >MD's do. > From what I have read on the threads here, everyone last one of you deserves to make a profit on whatever it is that you do. I don't know what type of thought process would even make you think for an instant that you needed to reassure some patient that you weren't " making much " on what you sell. Why shouldn't you " make much? " Even if you charged what you would consider an exorbitant fee for the herbs, you most likely would not match the prices that are charged for the newer pharmaceuticals. What is wrong with profit or even vast success in practice? Guy Porter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 >Misha Cohen wrote: >In my clinic, I have seen 4 people an hour for close to twenty years. As of one year ago, I have hired a co-practitioner and we see 4 to 6 per hour. We use all modalities of chinese medicine--acupuncture, moxa, cupping, massage, loose herbs, pill herbs, nutritional consults and develop treatment plans which are often for use with Western and other referring practitioners. Our front office is also our herb room--we carry many pill herbs and have about 550 loose herbs in stock--so the herb dispensing area is right at the front desk, This nade it easy to cross-train the front desk people and the assistants to put together herb formulas. I hope this is somewhat helpful. Yours, Misha Misha, Sounds like yours is the kind of practice I'd like to work in. Brava! (550 herbs!) I'm glad there are people like you in our field building such full-service, team-run clinics. It think it's hard to build such a practice in a small conservative city like my own but . . . maybe someday. Marian --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.734 / Virus Database: 488 - Release Date: 08/04/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Guy, This is of course one opinion. I think Todd's point about what MD's cannot legally do and what naturopathics are recommended to do are the ethical standard for healthcare. You may disagree, but the point is that you charge for the service and not the supplement because it is real easy to recommend things that the patient does not need. But hey it is all a matter of perspective, like what is wrong with making a profit by exploiting migrant workers, etc etc. And BTW - I think that with healthcare picking up most of the cost for P-Drugs, if you prescribed herbs (i.e. about $80 a month) you are most likely going to be more expensive then what the patient pays for all their drugs. Include in 1 supplement app $30. you have $110 / month. That is not cheap. But I stick by the ethical decision to not make profit from herb sales. - _____ DrGRPorter [DrGRPorter] Sunday, August 22, 2004 6:22 PM Re: Re: patient load > >prescribing. I sometimes feel compelled to reassure my > >patients that I don't make much on the products I sell but I > >would feel much better about just writing the prescript like > >MD's do. > From what I have read on the threads here, everyone last one of you deserves to make a profit on whatever it is that you do. I don't know what type of thought process would even make you think for an instant that you needed to reassure some patient that you weren't " making much " on what you sell. Why shouldn't you " make much? " Even if you charged what you would consider an exorbitant fee for the herbs, you most likely would not match the prices that are charged for the newer pharmaceuticals. What is wrong with profit or even vast success in practice? Guy Porter [Jason] Guy, This is of course one opinion. I think Todd's point that, what MD's cannot legally do and what naturopathics are recommended not to do are the ethical standard for healthcare. You may disagree, but the point is that one charges for the service and not the supplement (in house) because it is real easy to recommend things that the patient does not need and make $$$ - This protects the patient. But hey it is all a matter of perspective, like what is wrong with making a profit by exploiting migrant workers? Nothing right?. And BTW - I think that with healthcare picking up most of the cost for P-Drugs, if you prescribed herbs (i.e. about $80 a month) you are most likely going to be more expensive then what the patient pays for their drug(s). Include in 1 supplement approx $30. you have $110 / month. That is not cheap. But I stick by the ethical decision to not make profit from herb sales. Finally, Patient's in my experience respect you greatly when you tell them this. Many have been from practitioner to practitioner selling them every supplement under the sun, knowing that these practitioners are making pure profit from them. They are not happy about this and have expressed this to me many times. I would be curious if you told every patient upfront that you are making 100% profit off of the herbs that you are selling them. Many would not care, I assume because they are getting better, but I bet many would think twice. Just curious what they would say.. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Sorry about the previous post (below), my rough draft somehow got attached to the top of the email, please disregard and check out the bottom portion. -JB _____ [] Sunday, August 22, 2004 9:14 PM RE: Re: patient load Guy, This is of course one opinion. I think Todd's point about what MD's cannot legally do and what naturopathics are recommended to do are the ethical standard for healthcare. You may disagree, but the point is that you charge for the service and not the supplement because it is real easy to recommend things that the patient does not need. But hey it is all a matter of perspective, like what is wrong with making a profit by exploiting migrant workers, etc etc. And BTW - I think that with healthcare picking up most of the cost for P-Drugs, if you prescribed herbs (i.e. about $80 a month) you are most likely going to be more expensive then what the patient pays for all their drugs. Include in 1 supplement app $30. you have $110 / month. That is not cheap. But I stick by the ethical decision to not make profit from herb sales. - _____ DrGRPorter [DrGRPorter] Sunday, August 22, 2004 6:22 PM Re: Re: patient load > >prescribing. I sometimes feel compelled to reassure my > >patients that I don't make much on the products I sell but I > >would feel much better about just writing the prescript like > >MD's do. > From what I have read on the threads here, everyone last one of you deserves to make a profit on whatever it is that you do. I don't know what type of thought process would even make you think for an instant that you needed to reassure some patient that you weren't " making much " on what you sell. Why shouldn't you " make much? " Even if you charged what you would consider an exorbitant fee for the herbs, you most likely would not match the prices that are charged for the newer pharmaceuticals. What is wrong with profit or even vast success in practice? Guy Porter [Jason] Guy, This is of course one opinion. I think Todd's point that, what MD's cannot legally do and what naturopathics are recommended not to do are the ethical standard for healthcare. You may disagree, but the point is that one charges for the service and not the supplement (in house) because it is real easy to recommend things that the patient does not need and make $$$ - This protects the patient. But hey it is all a matter of perspective, like what is wrong with making a profit by exploiting migrant workers? Nothing right?. And BTW - I think that with healthcare picking up most of the cost for P-Drugs, if you prescribed herbs (i.e. about $80 a month) you are most likely going to be more expensive then what the patient pays for their drug(s). Include in 1 supplement approx $30. you have $110 / month. That is not cheap. But I stick by the ethical decision to not make profit from herb sales. Finally, Patient's in my experience respect you greatly when you tell them this. Many have been from practitioner to practitioner selling them every supplement under the sun, knowing that these practitioners are making pure profit from them. They are not happy about this and have expressed this to me many times. I would be curious if you told every patient upfront that you are making 100% profit off of the herbs that you are selling them. Many would not care, I assume because they are getting better, but I bet many would think twice. Just curious what they would say.. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 I am glad to hear that even the " more established " practitioners of CM have a hard time managing both patient load, care and business. As solitary, new practitioner in an underserved area, a lot of my time is spent just educating the patient in the idea of wellness, dietary habits, exercise and stress management - all of which seem to have contributed to some very tangible early results. From there acupuncture becomes my primary CM thrust - I include moxa, cupping, estim and massage where necessary. Only after a minimum of 3 visits do I turn to herbal therapy. This is for multiple reasons. 1. It allows both the patient and me time to delve into the Chief complaint - so many chronically ill patients have succesfully ignored many of their complaints for so long that they are unable to give an accurate picture of their disease - which can easily cause an erroneous diagnosis. 2. It helps builds a trusting relationship 3. It allows time for me to research available (non-chinese language) sources relating to their disease and the pathomechanisms and build a more patient specific herbal formula, generally a KPC classic as a basis with appropriate modifications. The limitation of time certainly curtails too much sophistication in formula design, however even the simplest modifications seem worthwhile. I find Sundays are the best day to develop formulas. There are no phone interruptions and the desire to enjoy some of the weekend is a great concentration tool. While I agree with some of Marilyn Allens suggestions that to make a business profitable you have to have multiple income strains, I also firmly believe that time management, patient management (expectations particularly) and the business of marketing, networking and administration are all essentials to a thriving practice. Non of which contribute an income strain - all of which however cost time and money. As with most health care professionals, we receive very little training in the business side of running a practice. I compare notes with many chiroprators, physical therapists and physicians and they all lament the lack of business training. One thing however that is essential - Write a business plan. It forces you to declare your intentions - and manage your goals. Do you need 30 patients a week, or 90 to achieve your financial goals? Do you need to bring in additional income strains to supplement. What kind of practitioner do you want to be. If you practice acupuncture solely, you can probably see 3 patients per hour - if you have a front desk person. You can increase the number more if you have an assistant. If you want to specialize in herbs then that patient number has to drop and so your rates must go up. If you prescribe herbs can you justify a 250% markup? Yes - you have to if this is your primary treatment focus. All of the above business decisions though demand that you as a practitioner determine what kind of practice you want. We can all become mediocre practitioners, who dabble - but it requires a plan and a drive to excel. By establishing the plan upfront, you then have a measuring stick which can help redirect you if you fail to make your goals. Kayte Halstead , " Jill A. Likkel " <jilllikkel@h...> wrote: > , " Marian Blum " > <marianb@r...> wrote: > > > > After 5 years, I'm revisiting the question of what type of > > practice to have: specifically, numbers of patients seen per > > hour and quality of care. I know many acups see 2 or more > > people per hour. I would like to hear from anyone who does > > this who is able to include herbal prescribing (custom?) and > > modalities such as moxa and cupping. How do you do it? What > > are the logistics? I > . Have any of you delved > > into these issues and since come to a happy resolution you'd > > like to share? > > > > Marian > > > Marian, > I also have been in practice for five years. I work in a multi- > disciplinary clinic (we have 9 practioners) where I have one room > that is mine all the time and I share another room 1 1/2 days a > week. This way I don't have to pay rent when I am not using the > room. Usually I can get caught up with refills on the single room > days. When it is not my doubled day and a half I can fill the > formula(granules) easily. I also can manage to get out formulas > usually on the doubled day because I haven't trained every patient > to take herbs yet. But sometimes patients just have to pick them up > the next day. They usually don't mind. > It would be helpful if my pharmacy was closer to my rooms. I have to > run up and down the stairs many times a day but I suppose it saves > on gym fees. > Our office does have a wonderful office manager that makes sure I > get the notes about so and so needs herbs etc. She also collects the > $ and gives patients reciepts and books appointments. > Occasionally it gets a little crazy and I have to stay late or get > in early but I make up for this by being strict on my rule of only > working four days a week, and an hour and a half lunch break. But I > really like having at least some doubled days. I'm not sure I'd > want to do it all the time. And yes, I do moxa, cupping and gua sha > as needed. > I also take insurance clients so I have a biller that picks up the > superbills and attends to all the follow-up and phone calls. I tried > to do it myself(for a year and a half) but I was working to hard at > things I don't enjoy. > > In our town each practitioner has their own pharmacy. > What do you and others think about having pharmacies(like chinatowns > in larger cities) instead of each practitioner having their own? > > Jill Likkel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 I think we deserve to make money on all aspects of our practice. However, there are some who make their business out of keeping their patients in the dark. One very successful practice repackages all of their patents into weekly plastic bags of $27 each. Which conveniently exactly fits into one slot of their insurance billing (but not for herbs, you figure it out). The patients think they are getting a special formula made in the office by these practitioners. And these are not the type of clienele who is going to prowl around Chinatown. So does one deserve to charge $27 for maybe $3 of patents? But as I say this is a very successful practice and this and other techniques work for them. Also I have been to some practitioners who insist I need hundreds of dollars of supplements and I have patients who come to me after having been to these practitioners. I question those that see their practice as selling these supplements. As one bragged to me, " I only charge the standard for acupuncture but each of my patients walk out with at least $200 in supplements. " Combine this with muscle testing or hair analysis or any number of " tools " and I see a loss of integrity. Allow me to vent a little about the problem with Marilyn Allen in that she comes from a chiropractic model and I don't think she realizes the difference betweens the two practices. Which would be that we have a tradition that one can or should adhere to. It is a rather complete medicine (with caveats). Our practice is not an opportunity to create " multiple income streams " On the other hand I've read some of Honora's articles and think she is very good. I've taken to heart one article about giving something away free once in awhile. Which I often do with a $4 patent. Why try to make the extra 2-5 bucks when a freebie builds good will? Just some thoughts. doug , DrGRPorter@a... wrote: > > > > >prescribing. I sometimes feel compelled to reassure my > > >patients that I don't make much on the products I sell but I > > >would feel much better about just writing the prescript like > > >MD's do. > > > > From what I have read on the threads here, everyone last one of you deserves > to make a profit on whatever it is that you do. I don't know what type of > thought process would even make you think for an instant that you needed to > reassure some patient that you weren't " making much " on what you sell. Why shouldn't > you " make much? " Even if you charged what you would consider an exorbitant > fee for the herbs, you most likely would not match the prices that are charged > for the newer pharmaceuticals. > > What is wrong with profit or even vast success in practice? > > Guy Porter > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Doug wrote: > I think we deserve to make money on all aspects of our practice. However, there are some > who make their business out of keeping their patients in the dark. One very successful > practice repackages all of their patents into weekly plastic bags of $27 each. Which > conveniently exactly fits into one slot of their insurance billing (but not for herbs, you > figure it out). The patients think they are getting a special formula made in the office by > these practitioners. I think this is despicable. Another very successful practice I know even puts the little black pills in tiny plain brown paper bags, so they look even more exotic. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 In a message dated 8/24/2004 4:03:55 PM Central Standard Time, writes: > One very successful > practice repackages all of their patents into weekly plastic bags of $27 > each. Which > conveniently exactly fits into one slot of their insurance billing (but not > for herbs, you > figure it out). The patients think they are getting a special formula made > in the office by > these practitioners. And these are not the type of clienele who is going to > prowl around > Chinatown. So does one deserve to charge $27 for maybe $3 of patents? I am not familiar with the situation you describe, but if you are implying that there is something wrong with how the practitioner bills insurance in this instance, then they should be prosecuted. There just isn't an excuse. I also agree that this practice of repackaging is deceptive. And the fact that it is overcharging is evident by the fact that the situation you describe relies on deception, in that the patients think the herbs are something other than what they are. On the other hand, I sold patents to patients at a markup, and made no pretense. I often let them know that they could go to our little Chinatown here in St. Louis and find them for themselves if they wished. My point is (and perhaps it is my wood like personality that draws wood like patients) that I saw no need to gain trust by telling them how little I made, rather I gained trust by telling them what the herbs would do and by letting them see very earnest and intense effort on my part, if not actual results. In my experience, people are okay with the doc making a darn good living as long as they feel that they have been listened to, cared for and that the doc has extended himself earnestly and diligently during the rough times. In about 17 years of practice, I had two people who bought their own herbs. Hundreds of others were explicitly glad that I went through the trouble and did not complain about the markup. Tens of people complained about the prices. Some people who needed free care and would exchange something (cleaning, artwork, filing) in exchange were given care for barter, and everyone who said that they just couldn't afford it was referred to a student clinic where they could get the work done without charge. And of course, the good karma freebie is a great thing. I have coached more than one good practitioner about their practice when they complained that they just weren't making it financially. In almost every case I thought the guy was a better doctor than I was. So when I would talk to them about their problem, I know it would sound as if I was just in business to make money. But what was actually happening was that I was trying to balance their proven inability to make money with some more business like thinking. To an outsider it would sound harsh or self interested. But underlying that was the intent that the practitioner needed to be making money and had to see their healing practice as a business entity. Or else they would end up working at Home Depot. I don't know who Marilyn Allen is, but is it possible that this is what is happening when she talks? Is it that she sees in front of her a few dozen people who so deserve to make some money but are stuck seeing four patients a day (six on a tough day) and apologizing for even charging for the herbs they had to personally order, inventory and decoct? I never meant that there was any reason to defraud, fool or dupe anyone. I have had the experience of having some pretty serious health problems beyond the reach (?) of Chinese medicine and when I see what kind of care I get from allopaths, it makes me sicker to think that good herbalists aren't making $150,000 per year. Guy Porter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Doug - I agree completely - the first practice is " Marketing a Solution " - much like a " Happy Meal " - when you look at what is really in the bag - the nutritional value is about 50c. However, the intrinsic perceived value to the kid and hence parent is worth $$ - the kid eats and the parent get's peace and quiet. Instant gratification. The 2nd practice is a front for supplementation and actually like a Gin & Tonic - should really be called Tonic & Gin. However, they have defined their field of business..They are selling supplementation. As far as Marilyns model goes - as I mentioned in my prior post - the lack of business, marketing and positioning training is common to Chiropractors too. They however, have had a few more years to create an ABC for new practitioners with simple revenue streams like pillows, seat cushions etc. They are much more limited by the bones of the body as to how they can diversify, so a cookie cutter store front is a revenue generator. We have the " opportunity " to follow a very similar model - we can easily make it work - any healing modality offers the potential for feel good supplements and basic capitalism. I don't believe that the tradition of TCM precludes or negates a money making enterprise. Honora's freebies to generate good will and patient return are after all not altruistic. The patient returns, they pay for another treatment, replenish herbs and get to talk about how wonderful acupuncture is at the next church meeting or golf foursome. That generates the revenue and WOM advertising - in my book an awful lot better than paying $50.00 for a pillow that is really uncomfortable and wrecks at least 2 nights of sleep. Either way - it comes back to my point of defining what type of practitioner you are, what type of practice you want, writing a business plan and setting attainable milestones. Kayte , " " wrote: > I think we deserve to make money on all aspects of our practice. However, there are some > who make their business out of keeping their patients in the dark. One very successful > practice repackages all of their patents into weekly plastic bags of $27 each. Which > conveniently exactly fits into one slot of their insurance billing (but not for herbs, you > figure it out). The patients think they are getting a special formula made in the office by > these practitioners. And these are not the type of clienele who is going to prowl around > Chinatown. So does one deserve to charge $27 for maybe $3 of patents? But as I say this > is a very successful practice and this and other techniques work for them. > > Also I have been to some practitioners who insist I need hundreds of dollars of > supplements and I have patients who come to me after having been to these practitioners. > I question those that see their practice as selling these supplements. As one bragged to > me, " I only charge the standard for acupuncture but each of my patients walk out with at > least $200 in supplements. " Combine this with muscle testing or hair analysis or any > number of " tools " and I see a loss of integrity. > > > Allow me to vent a little about the problem with Marilyn Allen in that she comes from a > chiropractic model and I don't think she realizes the difference betweens the two practices. > Which would be that we have a tradition that one can or should adhere to. It is a rather > complete medicine (with caveats). Our practice is not an opportunity to create " multiple > income streams " On the other hand I've read some of Honora's articles and think she is > very good. I've taken to heart one article about giving something away free once in awhile. > Which I often do with a $4 patent. Why try to make the extra 2-5 bucks when a freebie > builds good will? > > Just some thoughts. > > doug > > > , DrGRPorter@a... wrote: > > > > > > > >prescribing. I sometimes feel compelled to reassure my > > > >patients that I don't make much on the products I sell but I > > > >would feel much better about just writing the prescript like > > > >MD's do. > > > > > > > From what I have read on the threads here, everyone last one of you deserves > > to make a profit on whatever it is that you do. I don't know what type of > > thought process would even make you think for an instant that you needed to > > reassure some patient that you weren't " making much " on what you sell. Why shouldn't > > you " make much? " Even if you charged what you would consider an exorbitant > > fee for the herbs, you most likely would not match the prices that are charged > > for the newer pharmaceuticals. > > > > What is wrong with profit or even vast success in practice? > > > > Guy Porter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 These words could have been typed on my keyboard. Amen from me. Mark - <DrGRPorter Tuesday, August 24, 2004 8:24 PM Re: Re: patient load > > In a message dated 8/24/2004 4:03:55 PM Central Standard Time, > writes: > > > One very successful > > practice repackages all of their patents into weekly plastic bags of $27 > > each. Which > > conveniently exactly fits into one slot of their insurance billing (but not > > for herbs, you > > figure it out). The patients think they are getting a special formula made > > in the office by > > these practitioners. And these are not the type of clienele who is going to > > prowl around > > Chinatown. So does one deserve to charge $27 for maybe $3 of patents? > > I am not familiar with the situation you describe, but if you are implying > that there is something wrong with how the practitioner bills insurance in this > instance, then they should be prosecuted. There just isn't an excuse. > > I also agree that this practice of repackaging is deceptive. And the fact > that it is overcharging is evident by the fact that the situation you describe > relies on deception, in that the patients think the herbs are something other > than what they are. > > On the other hand, I sold patents to patients at a markup, and made no > pretense. I often let them know that they could go to our little Chinatown here in > St. Louis and find them for themselves if they wished. My point is (and perhaps > it is my wood like personality that draws wood like patients) that I saw no > need to gain trust by telling them how little I made, rather I gained trust by > telling them what the herbs would do and by letting them see very earnest and > intense effort on my part, if not actual results. > > In my experience, people are okay with the doc making a darn good living as > long as they feel that they have been listened to, cared for and that the doc > has extended himself earnestly and diligently during the rough times. > > In about 17 years of practice, I had two people who bought their own herbs. > Hundreds of others were explicitly glad that I went through the trouble and did > not complain about the markup. Tens of people complained about the prices. > Some people who needed free care and would exchange something (cleaning, > artwork, filing) in exchange were given care for barter, and everyone who said that > they just couldn't afford it was referred to a student clinic where they could > get the work done without charge. And of course, the good karma freebie is a > great thing. > > I have coached more than one good practitioner about their practice when they > complained that they just weren't making it financially. In almost every case > I thought the guy was a better doctor than I was. So when I would talk to > them about their problem, I know it would sound as if I was just in business to > make money. But what was actually happening was that I was trying to balance > their proven inability to make money with some more business like thinking. To > an outsider it would sound harsh or self interested. But underlying that was > the intent that the practitioner needed to be making money and had to see their > healing practice as a business entity. Or else they would end up working at > Home Depot. > > I don't know who Marilyn Allen is, but is it possible that this is what is > happening when she talks? Is it that she sees in front of her a few dozen people > who so deserve to make some money but are stuck seeing four patients a day > (six on a tough day) and apologizing for even charging for the herbs they had to > personally order, inventory and decoct? > > I never meant that there was any reason to defraud, fool or dupe anyone. I > have had the experience of having some pretty serious health problems beyond the > reach (?) of Chinese medicine and when I see what kind of care I get from > allopaths, it makes me sicker to think that good herbalists aren't making > $150,000 per year. > > Guy Porter > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 > I think this is despicable. I don't know about " despicable, " but it is illegal under DSHEA as well as unethical/unprofessional. (Part of the definition of a profession as opposed to a trade is the existence of professional ethics.) If you really are concerned about this, you should report it to your Board of Acupuncture Examiners (if you have one), Department of Regulatory Agencies, Board of Medical Examiners, Department of Health & Human Services, or whoever regulates the practice of acupuncture & CM in your state. You should also report this to your state professional association whether or not the offending party(ies) are members. Even consider writing a column about this for your local newspaper's Health edition. (Most papers have such an edition once a week). My point being, don't just lament this practice to others " in the choir " but take responsibility to do something to change it. A profession (as opposed to a trade) is supposed to be self-regulating and self-enforcing. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 - " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 Wednesday, August 25, 2004 10:04 AM Re: patient load > I don't know about " despicable, " but it is illegal under DSHEA as well > as unethical/unprofessional. (Part of the definition of a profession > as opposed to a trade is the existence of professional ethics.) > > If you really are concerned about this, you should report it to your > Board of Acupuncture Examiners (if you have one), Department of > Regulatory Agencies, Board of Medical Examiners, Department of Health > & Human Services, or whoever regulates the practice of acupuncture & > CM in your state. You should also report this to your state > professional association whether or not the offending party(ies) are > members. Even consider writing a column about this for your local > newspaper's Health edition. (Most papers have such an edition once a > week). My point being, don't just lament this practice to others " in > the choir " but take responsibility to do something to change it. A > profession (as opposed to a trade) is supposed to be self-regulating > and self-enforcing. OK, I will consider doing something like this. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 , " Mark Reese " <tcm2.enteract@r...> wrote: > > In my experience, people are okay with the doc making a darn good living > as > > long as they feel that they have been listened to, cared for and that the > doc > > has extended himself earnestly and diligently during the rough times. That is indeed true, but if the bulk of your patient population has always been financially strapped, it is a different matter than for those whom cash payments of a few hundred dollars a month are no problem. I have no problem with how anyone makes a living. The wealthy and middle class and insured certainly deserve healthcare. However so do the poor. I have been motivated for years to deliver my services to those who cannot afford to pay on their own. In this population, there is great suspicion of being ripped off until one develops that trust and rapport you mention. One of the trick with new patients is not to slam them with a huge herb purchase at once. Work with them, gain their trust and slowly make recommendations. However sometimes patients need herbs right away on their first visit, yet are vocally expressing concern about finances. If they react with verbal concern over the bill, I do sometimes feel the need to let them know that the herbs are not something I make money on. The comfort of people with others making money has a lot to do with whether they make money themselves or feel constantly ripped off and abused by life (now don't get me wrong, I am not saying all or even most of these folks are accurate in their characterizations of why life has screwed them, this is just the way it is). I think such patients are often reassured by knowing the person working on them is doing a job, being paid a salary and not personally profiting or losing in any way from herbs sold or not. That the only reason have to tack an additional charge onto their bills is because it is in their best interest. Sure, after you know someone, they trust you, but certain folks are not that trusting on first encounters, especially if they feel they have already been run through the ringer one too many times. This is never an issue for me with established patients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 While I agree that every practitioner deserves to make money on what they do, I think the point being made is that too many practitioners of all stripes are attempting to 'swell the bill' by giving substances to patients that they probably don't need, or too many substances at one time. When one is not making a profit, practitioner integrity is assured. There is probably a happy medium somewhere. On Aug 22, 2004, at 5:21 PM, DrGRPorter wrote: > From what I have read on the threads here, everyone last one of you > deserves > to make a profit on whatever it is that you do. I don't know what type > of > thought process would even make you think for an instant that you > needed to > reassure some patient that you weren't " making much " on what you sell. > Why shouldn't > you " make much? " Even if you charged what you would consider an > exorbitant > fee for the herbs, you most likely would not match the prices that are > charged > for the newer pharmaceuticals. > > What is wrong with profit or even vast success in practice? > > Guy Porter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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