Guest guest Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Hi, I'm curious to hear your personal experiences with hypothyroid and using Chinese herbs vs. medication. I know that in theory Chinese herbs should work, but I'd like to know if you have actually seen evidence. A teacher told me that its not as simple as hypothyroid equals yang deficiency. Anyone know what other diagnosis to be on the lookout for? I have several patients with this diagnosis, and one is on a megadose of Armour---literally about 100 times the regular dose. She wants to get off it. I'm also wondering if anyone is clear on the downside to using Armour thyroid for hypothyroid. Its derived from a natural source, so I thought that it might be ok. Thanks! Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Laura The Armour caused insomnia for one person that I know. Karen --- heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: Hi, I'm curious to hear your personal experiences with hypothyroid and using Chinese herbs vs. medication. I know that in theory Chinese herbs should work, but I'd like to know if you have actually seen evidence. A teacher told me that its not as simple as hypothyroid equals yang deficiency. Anyone know what other diagnosis to be on the lookout for? I have several patients with this diagnosis, and one is on a megadose of Armour---literally about 100 times the regular dose. She wants to get off it. I'm also wondering if anyone is clear on the downside to using Armour thyroid for hypothyroid. Its derived from a natural source, so I thought that it might be ok. Thanks! Laura Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Laura, Interesting that the doc was willing to prescribe Armour. Many docs will no longer. Harder to adjust dosage correctly even though it is " natural. " As for side effects, there should be no side effects if the dosage is correct. However, that's easier said than done. If it can be done, then I have no problem whatsoever with thyroid supplementation. As hypothyroid person myself, I personally find a combination of thyroid supplementation with Chinese herbs the best of both worlds. Thyroid supplementation can be a relatively quick and easy fix for a host of problems. In terms of Chinese medicine, most Chinese sources say a spleen-kidney yang vacuity is the core disease mechanism. However, there can be cases where there is only a spleen qi vacuity and no kidney yang vacuity (but not vice versa). In addition, there can be any of the complicating patterns of either spleen qi vacuity or kidney yang vacuity. For spleen qi vacuity, these commonly include: liver depression depressive heat (of liver, stomach, lungs, and/or heart) liver blood vacuity heart qi and/or blood vacuity lung qi vacuity (including defensive qi vacuity) damp accumulation phlegm dampness/phlegm turbidity phlegm heat phlegm nodulation damp heat blood stasis For kidney yang vacuity, these include: Kidney yin vacuity w or w/o internal heat Pretty much any of the above Bottom line, treat the patient's personally presenting patterns no matter what they are. It is not uncommon for hypothyroid patients to still have signs and symptoms of heat evils (depressive, vacuity, phlegm, or damp heat). In that case, one must supplement and clear at the same time. Likewise, if there is liver depression at the same time as spleen vacuity (when is there not?), one must course and drain at the same time as supplementing and fortifying. Hypothyroid patients can be complicated, and treating the wrong disease mechanisms will not result in a rise in TSH or serum T3, T4. Good luck, Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote: mechanisms will not result in a rise in TSH or serum T3, T4 Bob, Did you mean to say a decrease in TSH and rise in serum T3, T4? Respectfully, Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Thanks. Yes, that's what I meant to say. Bob , Jamie Koonce <untothewholeperson> wrote: > > > Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001> wrote: > > mechanisms will not > result in a rise in TSH or serum T3, T4 > > > > > Bob, > > Did you mean to say a decrease in TSH and rise in serum T3, T4? > > Respectfully, > > Jamie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001> wrote: > Laura, > > Interesting that the doc was willing to prescribe Armour. Many docs > will no longer. Harder to adjust dosage correctly even though it is > " natural. " As for side effects, there should be no side effects if the > dosage is correct. Some people say that armour is safer because you can be weaned off it, while levoxyl generally leads to dependence. I don't know if this is fact or wishful thinking. As for herbs alone treating it, there are several factors. Unfortunately the vast majority of hypothyroid patients one will ever encounter have already been on levoxyl or synthroid for decades, so there is often no choice but to work with the drugs. The drugs work well, but they typically seem to redden and dry the tongue in long term users, which makes perfect sense if it functions as warm interior herb or yang tonic. Any thoughts on which, Bob? Thus, the formerly yang xu patient can end up yin xu from the drugs. So treating the damage is one possible strategy. If one catches a case early, I have seen herbs alone work. In later cases, when armour has been used, I have seen complete weaning, but this was always done in concert with naturopaths who were using tyrosine, bladderwrack and thyroid protomorphogens. We carefully monitored the blood and got reliable results. Has anyone seen reliable results in using TCM alone in later cases already on drugs. While I agree with Bob that drugs and herbs may be ideal for many patients, the correct use of high potency naturopathic supplements can eliminate the need for drugs and minmize their use greatly. And while no chronic patient is limited to a single pattern, thisis but one example where a disease is somewhat defined by a pattern. The patient is fatigued, ice cold, retaining water and getting fat. They almost invariably have weak pulses and big toothmarked tongues if unmedicated. Whatever else is going on, this is practically the definition of yang vacuity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 The client that I mentioned who is on a mega-dose of Armour has just about the most red and dry tongue I've seen, especially on a relatively young woman (age 38). On the other hand, she has responded incredibly well to acupuncture. When she came in she was terribly depressed and lethargic. She said she had self-diagnosed fibromyalgia. Moving a lot of qi and clearing heat has done wonders for her (but her tongue remains very red and dry). I'm actually concerned that she will no longer respond as well to acupuncture when she gets off the Armour. Perhaps just reducing her dose is the answer. She actually never had a low thyroid test---she just found a doctor who believed that all cases of fiobromyalgia were actually hypothroid---and he just kept increasing her dose until it was shockingly high (and she was still depressed and tired). Now she is slowly weaning herself off it. The other major reason I was asking about this is that I was diagnosed with Hashimoto's Hypothyroid last year. It developed within 2 hours of taking a homeopathic remedy prescribed to me by a naturopath last fall, so I thought it might reverse itself. By this spring I seemed to be doing better with Chinese herbs, but just last week I started to feel cold again right before the weather changed (its like my body sensed the reduction of yang coming). So I am in that category of people who hasn't been treated with meds (other than a brief trial last year). But I want to get pregnant this year, and I am 37. So maybe I should go with the tried and true path. Even if I get my thyroid under control with natural remedies it could be unsafe in preganancy. Women often get worse with hypothyroid when they get pregnant, and what if I can't get the natural supplements to do the job then? The problem is that the meds actually make you worse not better at first, so I couldn't just start the meds then. Hypothyroid can cause all kinds of birth defects. Thanks for all your thoughts. Laura , " " wrote: > , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001> > wrote: > > Laura, > > > > Interesting that the doc was willing to prescribe Armour. Many docs > > will no longer. Harder to adjust dosage correctly even though it is > > " natural. " As for side effects, there should be no side effects if the > > dosage is correct. > > Some people say that armour is safer because you can be weaned off it, while levoxyl > generally leads to dependence. I don't know if this is fact or wishful thinking. As for > herbs alone treating it, there are several factors. Unfortunately the vast majority of > hypothyroid patients one will ever encounter have already been on levoxyl or synthroid for > decades, so there is often no choice but to work with the drugs. The drugs work well, but > they typically seem to redden and dry the tongue in long term users, which makes perfect > sense if it functions as warm interior herb or yang tonic. Any thoughts on which, Bob? > Thus, the formerly yang xu patient can end up yin xu from the drugs. So treating the > damage is one possible strategy. If one catches a case early, I have seen herbs alone > work. > > In later cases, when armour has been used, I have seen complete weaning, but this was > always done in concert with naturopaths who were using tyrosine, bladderwrack and > thyroid protomorphogens. We carefully monitored the blood and got reliable results. Has > anyone seen reliable results in using TCM alone in later cases already on drugs. While I > agree with Bob that drugs and herbs may be ideal for many patients, the correct use of > high potency naturopathic supplements can eliminate the need for drugs and minmize > their use greatly. And while no chronic patient is limited to a single pattern, thisis but one > example where a disease is somewhat defined by a pattern. The patient is fatigued, ice > cold, retaining water and getting fat. They almost invariably have weak pulses and big > toothmarked tongues if unmedicated. Whatever else is going on, this is practically the > definition of yang vacuity. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 armour can be controlled if prepared in a time release form. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > The other major reason I was asking about this is that I was > diagnosed with Hashimoto's Hypothyroid last year. Hashimotos, being an autoimune disease, seems to respond best when using blood moving herbs as part of the therapy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Todd- Why do you say that " being an autoimmune disease, seems to respond best when using blood moving herbs " ? Do you feel that all autoimmune diseases have an element of blood stasis? -Steve > , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > >> The other major reason I was asking about this is that I was >> diagnosed with Hashimoto's Hypothyroid last year. > >Hashimotos, being an autoimune disease, seems to respond best when using blood >moving herbs as part of the therapy. > >Todd > > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, >including board approved continuing education classes, an annual >conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.