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hypothyroid: herbs vs. Armour

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Hi, I'm curious to hear your personal experiences with hypothyroid

and using Chinese herbs vs. medication. I know that in theory

Chinese herbs should work, but I'd like to know if you have actually

seen evidence. A teacher told me that its not as simple as

hypothyroid equals yang deficiency. Anyone know what other diagnosis

to be on the lookout for?

 

I have several patients with this diagnosis, and one is on a megadose

of Armour---literally about 100 times the regular dose. She wants to

get off it.

 

I'm also wondering if anyone is clear on the downside to using Armour

thyroid for hypothyroid. Its derived from a natural source, so I

thought that it might be ok.

 

Thanks! Laura

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Laura

 

The Armour caused insomnia for one person that I know.

 

Karen

--- heylaurag <heylaurag wrote:

 

 

 

Hi, I'm curious to hear your personal experiences with

hypothyroid

and using Chinese herbs vs. medication. I know that

in theory

Chinese herbs should work, but I'd like to know if you

have actually

seen evidence. A teacher told me that its not as

simple as

hypothyroid equals yang deficiency. Anyone know what

other diagnosis

to be on the lookout for?

 

I have several patients with this diagnosis, and one

is on a megadose

of Armour---literally about 100 times the regular

dose. She wants to

get off it.

 

I'm also wondering if anyone is clear on the downside

to using Armour

thyroid for hypothyroid. Its derived from a natural

source, so I

thought that it might be ok.

 

Thanks! Laura

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional

services, including board approved continuing

education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Laura,

 

Interesting that the doc was willing to prescribe Armour. Many docs

will no longer. Harder to adjust dosage correctly even though it is

" natural. " As for side effects, there should be no side effects if the

dosage is correct. However, that's easier said than done. If it can be

done, then I have no problem whatsoever with thyroid supplementation.

As hypothyroid person myself, I personally find a combination of

thyroid supplementation with Chinese herbs the best of both worlds.

Thyroid supplementation can be a relatively quick and easy fix for a

host of problems.

 

In terms of Chinese medicine, most Chinese sources say a spleen-kidney

yang vacuity is the core disease mechanism. However, there can be

cases where there is only a spleen qi vacuity and no kidney yang

vacuity (but not vice versa). In addition, there can be any of the

complicating patterns of either spleen qi vacuity or kidney yang

vacuity. For spleen qi vacuity, these commonly include:

 

liver depression

depressive heat (of liver, stomach, lungs, and/or heart)

liver blood vacuity

heart qi and/or blood vacuity

lung qi vacuity (including defensive qi vacuity)

damp accumulation

phlegm dampness/phlegm turbidity

phlegm heat

phlegm nodulation

damp heat

blood stasis

 

For kidney yang vacuity, these include:

 

Kidney yin vacuity w or w/o internal heat

Pretty much any of the above

 

Bottom line, treat the patient's personally presenting patterns no

matter what they are. It is not uncommon for hypothyroid patients to

still have signs and symptoms of heat evils (depressive, vacuity,

phlegm, or damp heat). In that case, one must supplement and clear at

the same time. Likewise, if there is liver depression at the same time

as spleen vacuity (when is there not?), one must course and drain at

the same time as supplementing and fortifying. Hypothyroid patients

can be complicated, and treating the wrong disease mechanisms will not

result in a rise in TSH or serum T3, T4.

 

Good luck,

 

Bob

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Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote:

 

mechanisms will not

result in a rise in TSH or serum T3, T4

 

 

 

 

Bob,

 

Did you mean to say a decrease in TSH and rise in serum T3, T4?

 

Respectfully,

 

Jamie

 

 

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Thanks. Yes, that's what I meant to say.

 

Bob

 

, Jamie Koonce

<untothewholeperson> wrote:

>

>

> Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001> wrote:

>

> mechanisms will not

> result in a rise in TSH or serum T3, T4

>

>

>

>

> Bob,

>

> Did you mean to say a decrease in TSH and rise in serum T3, T4?

>

>

Respectfully,

>

>

Jamie

>

>

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, " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001>

wrote:

> Laura,

>

> Interesting that the doc was willing to prescribe Armour. Many docs

> will no longer. Harder to adjust dosage correctly even though it is

> " natural. " As for side effects, there should be no side effects if the

> dosage is correct.

 

Some people say that armour is safer because you can be weaned off it, while

levoxyl

generally leads to dependence. I don't know if this is fact or wishful

thinking. As for

herbs alone treating it, there are several factors. Unfortunately the vast

majority of

hypothyroid patients one will ever encounter have already been on levoxyl or

synthroid for

decades, so there is often no choice but to work with the drugs. The drugs work

well, but

they typically seem to redden and dry the tongue in long term users, which makes

perfect

sense if it functions as warm interior herb or yang tonic. Any thoughts on

which, Bob?

Thus, the formerly yang xu patient can end up yin xu from the drugs. So

treating the

damage is one possible strategy. If one catches a case early, I have seen herbs

alone

work.

 

In later cases, when armour has been used, I have seen complete weaning, but

this was

always done in concert with naturopaths who were using tyrosine, bladderwrack

and

thyroid protomorphogens. We carefully monitored the blood and got reliable

results. Has

anyone seen reliable results in using TCM alone in later cases already on drugs.

While I

agree with Bob that drugs and herbs may be ideal for many patients, the correct

use of

high potency naturopathic supplements can eliminate the need for drugs and

minmize

their use greatly. And while no chronic patient is limited to a single pattern,

thisis but one

example where a disease is somewhat defined by a pattern. The patient is

fatigued, ice

cold, retaining water and getting fat. They almost invariably have weak pulses

and big

toothmarked tongues if unmedicated. Whatever else is going on, this is

practically the

definition of yang vacuity.

 

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The client that I mentioned who is on a mega-dose of Armour has just

about the most red and dry tongue I've seen, especially on a

relatively young woman (age 38). On the other hand, she has

responded incredibly well to acupuncture. When she came in she was

terribly depressed and lethargic. She said she had self-diagnosed

fibromyalgia. Moving a lot of qi and clearing heat has done wonders

for her (but her tongue remains very red and dry). I'm actually

concerned that she will no longer respond as well to acupuncture when

she gets off the Armour. Perhaps just reducing her dose is the

answer. She actually never had a low thyroid test---she just found a

doctor who believed that all cases of fiobromyalgia were actually

hypothroid---and he just kept increasing her dose until it was

shockingly high (and she was still depressed and tired). Now she is

slowly weaning herself off it.

 

The other major reason I was asking about this is that I was

diagnosed with Hashimoto's Hypothyroid last year. It developed

within 2 hours of taking a homeopathic remedy prescribed to me by a

naturopath last fall, so I thought it might reverse itself. By this

spring I seemed to be doing better with Chinese herbs, but just last

week I started to feel cold again right before the weather changed

(its like my body sensed the reduction of yang coming).

 

So I am in that category of people who hasn't been treated with meds

(other than a brief trial last year). But I want to get pregnant

this year, and I am 37. So maybe I should go with the tried and true

path. Even if I get my thyroid under control with natural remedies

it could be unsafe in preganancy. Women often get worse with

hypothyroid when they get pregnant, and what if I can't get the

natural supplements to do the job then? The problem is that the meds

actually make you worse not better at first, so I couldn't just start

the meds then. Hypothyroid can cause all kinds of birth defects.

 

Thanks for all your thoughts.

 

Laura

 

 

 

 

, " "

wrote:

> , " Bob Flaws "

<pemachophel2001>

> wrote:

> > Laura,

> >

> > Interesting that the doc was willing to prescribe Armour. Many

docs

> > will no longer. Harder to adjust dosage correctly even though it

is

> > " natural. " As for side effects, there should be no side effects

if the

> > dosage is correct.

>

> Some people say that armour is safer because you can be weaned off

it, while levoxyl

> generally leads to dependence. I don't know if this is fact or

wishful thinking. As for

> herbs alone treating it, there are several factors. Unfortunately

the vast majority of

> hypothyroid patients one will ever encounter have already been on

levoxyl or synthroid for

> decades, so there is often no choice but to work with the drugs.

The drugs work well, but

> they typically seem to redden and dry the tongue in long term

users, which makes perfect

> sense if it functions as warm interior herb or yang tonic. Any

thoughts on which, Bob?

> Thus, the formerly yang xu patient can end up yin xu from the

drugs. So treating the

> damage is one possible strategy. If one catches a case early, I

have seen herbs alone

> work.

>

> In later cases, when armour has been used, I have seen complete

weaning, but this was

> always done in concert with naturopaths who were using tyrosine,

bladderwrack and

> thyroid protomorphogens. We carefully monitored the blood and got

reliable results. Has

> anyone seen reliable results in using TCM alone in later cases

already on drugs. While I

> agree with Bob that drugs and herbs may be ideal for many patients,

the correct use of

> high potency naturopathic supplements can eliminate the need for

drugs and minmize

> their use greatly. And while no chronic patient is limited to a

single pattern, thisis but one

> example where a disease is somewhat defined by a pattern. The

patient is fatigued, ice

> cold, retaining water and getting fat. They almost invariably have

weak pulses and big

> toothmarked tongues if unmedicated. Whatever else is going on,

this is practically the

> definition of yang vacuity.

>

 

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, " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> wrote:

 

> The other major reason I was asking about this is that I was

> diagnosed with Hashimoto's Hypothyroid last year.

 

Hashimotos, being an autoimune disease, seems to respond best when using blood

moving herbs as part of the therapy.

 

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Todd-

 

Why do you say that " being an autoimmune disease, seems to respond

best when using blood moving herbs " ? Do you feel that all autoimmune

diseases have an element of blood stasis?

 

-Steve

 

> , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> wrote:

>

>> The other major reason I was asking about this is that I was

>> diagnosed with Hashimoto's Hypothyroid last year.

>

>Hashimotos, being an autoimune disease, seems to respond best when using blood

>moving herbs as part of the therapy.

>

>Todd

>

>

>

>

>Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services,

>including board approved continuing education classes, an annual

>conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

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