HIV does not cause AIDS

[Guest guest]

A very recent article by Duesberg continues to cogently dispute the

aids/hiv hpothesis

 

All I can say is that if rec. drugs destroy the immune system, nothing

we did at IEP short of the triple cocktail really helped to rebuild

that destruction.

 

http://www.duesberg.com/papers/chemical-bases.html

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

 

FAX:

 

 

[Guest guest]

Very interesting....here is his whole hypothesis:

 

Here we propose that AIDS is a collection of chemical epidemics,

caused by recreational drugs, anti-HIV drugs, and malnutrition.

According to this hypothesis AIDS is not contagious, not immunogenic,

not treatable by vaccines or antiviral drugs, and HIV is just a

passenger virus. The hypothesis explains why AIDS epidemics strike

non-randomly if caused by drugs and randomly if caused by

malnutrition, why they manifest in drug- and malnutrition-specific

diseases, and why they are not self-limiting via anti-viral immunity.

The hypothesis predicts AIDS prevention by adequate nutrition and

abstaining from drugs, and even cures by treating AIDS diseases with

proven medications.

 

When I was first reading Guohui Liu's Warm Disease Theory book, I

took on a project of writing a paper about AIDS from a warm disease

perspective. In the paper (which is not very original, just an

exercise in trying to match up AIDS with WDT), it seemed to me that

AIDS fit best as a Spring Warmth disease, which is a disease that

requires prior deficiency. Because of this deficiency, an invasion

of the body in the Winter cannot be expelled and it lodges deep in

the body and then re-emerges again in the Spring because of some

other trigger (another external disease, internal damage, etc).

Duesberg's hypothesis seems to go with that whole Spring Warmth idea.

Very interesting.

 

do you know if this guy is for real, taken seriously by his

colleagues, or is considered a crack-pot?

 

-Steve

 

>A very recent article by Duesberg continues to cogently dispute the

>aids/hiv hpothesis

>

>All I can say is that if rec. drugs destroy the immune system, nothing

>we did at IEP short of the triple cocktail really helped to rebuild

>that destruction.

>

>http://www.duesberg.com/papers/chemical-bases.html

>

>

>Chinese Herbs

>

>

>FAX:

>

>

[Guest guest]

, Stephen Bonzak <smb021169@e...>

wrote:

 

>

> do you know if this guy is for real, taken seriously by his

> colleagues, or is considered a crack-pot?

 

 

He is not taken seriously by the AIDS establishment, but he does have the

support of many

prominent colleagues and he is no slouch. He isolated the first cancer gene

through his

work on retroviruses in 1970, and mapped the genetic structure of these viruses.

This,

and his subsequent work in the same field, resulted in his election to the

National

Academy of Sciences in 1986. He is also the recipient of a seven-year

Outstanding

Investigator Grant from the National Institutes of Health.

 

Deusberg may be an outcast but he has been outcast by people who are far less

knowledgeable and accomplished than he is. MDs and politicians usually know

shit about

shit when it comes to basic science. However many folks doing basic research on

AIDs do

agree with him, but if they open their mouths, all the money dries up.

 

[Guest guest]

However many folks doing basic research on AIDs do

agree with him, but if they open their mouths, all the money dries up.

>>>>Who do you know that agrees with him? I know Deusberg personally and had

conversation on AIDS and i think he is close minded about much of the research,

plus the fact that there are many females that have gotten aids from their

partners and do not have any of his risk factors totally discounts his theories

on AIDS. He just ignores you when you bring this example

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Sep 1, 2004, at 11:51 AM, Stephen Bonzak wrote:

 

> When I was first reading Guohui Liu's Warm Disease Theory book, I

> took on a project of writing a paper about AIDS from a warm disease

> perspective.  In the paper (which is not very original, just an

> exercise in trying to match up AIDS with WDT), it seemed to me that

> AIDS fit best as a Spring Warmth disease, which is a disease that

> requires prior deficiency.  Because of this deficiency, an invasion

> of the body in the Winter cannot be expelled and it lodges deep in

> the body and then re-emerges again in the Spring because of some

> other trigger (another external disease, internal damage, etc).

>

 

 

one thing I noticed about spring-warmth is that much of the

presentation contradicts Liu's presentation elsewhere on Lurking

pathogens (actually it is not his thoughts, just his translation).

When talking about lurking pathogens in general on pages 64-67, Liu

clearly states that pathogens lurk or move deeper when the zheng qi is

strong and surface when it is weak. But in the Spring-warmth chapter,

it is clearly stated that spring-warmth is expelled more superficially

when the zheng qi is strong after lurking deeply when the zheng qi is

weak. Am I wrong or are these opposite ideas. It doesn't surprise me,

but if so, it means that the conditions that lead to a lurking pathogen

could be mutually exclusive.

 

Also, while this spring-warmth has etiological similarities between

AIDS in general and certainly towards those who support the lifestyle

hypothesis, it seemed to me that the conditions described in this

chapter are more similar to opportunistic infections an AIDs patients

might get, rather than an explanation of the progression of HIV itself.

The reason I say this is that all of the patterns are pretty acute and

none of them seem to involve increased susceptibility to infection, the

hallmark of AIDS. The patterns seem to either describe the

opportunistic infections and the long term kidney damage, but the model

does presuppose that vacuity preceded the exterior invasion and was not

caused by it, a position that has been rejected by the TCM AIDS

community.

 

It is indeed similar to Duesberg's model in that it includes lifestyle

issues causing immunocompromise and then describes a range of

infections one might get as a result of the vacuity. And while it

attributes further vacuity as a result of infection, it is still

telling that vacuity is thought to preexist. Spring-warmth is also

caused by COLD invasion of the shaoyin. Since spring-warmth theory

does not explain how a healthy person could get HIV and progress to

AIDS, it does not satisfy the modern biomedical model espoused by Mark

and Misha here. Wind-warmth begins as a URI and does not seem to lurk,

thus it meets none of the criteria for HIV either. Warm-toxin is

another pathogen in the wen bing xue that can attack a healthy person,

but it results in serious acute illnesses and thus does not explain

HIV. I used to hear an idea about warm toxins entering the blood

directly and lurking there, but that does not seem to be a standard

idea or one with much of a pedigree.

 

If AIDS is primarily caused by infection, what TCM theory explains

this? Or is the assumption that vacuity does indeed preexist HIV

infection? If so, how is this idea different from Duesberg's? For

example, if one attributes AIDS to spleen/stomach vacuity, was that

vacuity caused by HIV or there first? If the vacuity was caused by

HIV, what chinese model explains a lurking pathogen causing vacuity

rather than being an effect of vacuity. My understanding would be that

vacuity or some other impairment to zheng qi (stagnation perhaps??) is

necessary for a pathogen to lurk. Now this does not make Duesberg

right. It merely demonstrates that the explanation of AIDS from a TCM

perspective is far from satisfactory. Even if we accept that

stagnation of zheng qi and not only vacuity can lead to lurking

pathogens, we are still embracing the idea that some imbalance allows

the pathogen to lurk. It can't just invade and lodge in a healthy

person with no risk factors. By arguing that in AIDS, the pathogen can

invade and lodge in a healthy person, aren't we turning CM on its head

for this one illness? While it is true that epidemic toxins can invade

even the healthiest person, my reading of the wen bing xue suggests

that such epidemic toxins refer solely to sudden onset, dramatically

acute and immediately life-threatening illnesses like the influenza of

1919, not a slow virus that grows for decades.

 

So while most AIDS patients do have commonly known risk factors, we

have heard and all know those who do not seem to have such factors.

But we should keep an open mind that those who do not have common risk

factors may have immunocompromise or malabsorption of nutrients for

genetic or other unknown and untested reasons. In other words, they

may actually be at risk, but because their risk factors are obscure

they are overlooked. I am not claiming HIV plays no role in AIDS. But

we should try and explain it better by TCM theory and explain why it

never entered the mainstream population if the main vector is a

microbe. Some co-factors are clearly at play or HIV would be more

evenly distributed through the population. clearly the topic enrages

people, but if we do not discuss these gaping holes openly, we will

never be able to offer any more than palliative care. I would submit

that the sophisticated use of TCM in AIDS has been inhibited by

insisting that it progresses according to a model that is not well

supported by actual chinese medical theory. I believe there is a

middle ground between the status quo and radicals like Duesberg that is

more correct than either.

 

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

 

FAX:

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Can you clarify this supposed position of the TCM AIDS community? It

seems logical to me that there had to be underlying vacuity to allow

the exterior invasion, as per the Su Wen model (strong correct qi

repels evil qi). However, I think there is still confusion from a CM

perspective if HIV should be considered to be an epidemic qi which

strikes anyone who is exposed, or a latent evil that sinks into the

ying and xue.

 

Interestingly, twelve years ago I went to see Jonas Salk speak about an

AIDS vaccine at the Salk Institute, and he spoke about how HIV sinks

through the body's defenses with little or no reaction in terms of

chills, fever, flu-like symptoms, etc., and lodges itself deep in the

body. At least his ideas sounded similar to concepts of latent evil

qi.

 

 

On Sep 12, 2004, at 8:52 AM, wrote:

 

> The reason I say this is that all of the patterns are pretty acute and

> none of them seem to involve increased susceptibility to infection, the

> hallmark of AIDS. The patterns seem to either describe the

> opportunistic infections and the long term kidney damage, but the model

> does presuppose that vacuity preceded the exterior invasion and was not

> caused by it, a position that has been rejected by the TCM AIDS

> community.

>