Guest guest Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 I just read a case study where the author was bragging about prescribing the formula below concurrently with interferon for a six month continuous period. The formula was prescribed in tablet form and the L.Ac. attributes the combination therapy to the patient's remarkable success and lack of side effects. But let's consider a few things: 1. I thought it was considered highly risky to prescribe chai hu concurrently with interferon and this is one of the few proven d/h interactions we should be aware of. this thought never passed her mind. 2. Using a patent resulted in such a low dose that there were no side-effects, but also no positive effects. In which case, the treatment success was due solely to the interferon plus placebo effects or 3. The low dose of herbs in combination with interferon actually resulted in increased interferon activity with no side effects (best of both worlds). While this may be possible theoretically and it is something I have suggested , I have assumed that in order to achieve this in clinic, one would need to use small doses of interferon and large doses of herbs, not the reverse. While interferon may be safer at low doses when mixed with herbs, if it is used at normal doses, any amount of chai hu will potentially increase the circulating interferon in the bloodstream and lead to toxicity. The L.Ac. in typical snide fashion points out that the MD did not believe the herbs played any role and did not alter his regimen as a result (i.e. he used normal interferon doses). I would suggest that the MD is correct. The L.Ac. was careless to prescribe chai hu to this patient and the herb company was even more careless to report it. Any benefit was likely due to placebo and the px is damn lucky nothing bad happened. Ganoderma Lucidum (Ganoderma / Ling Zhi) 9% ---------- Radix Paeoniae Rubra (Red Peony Root / Chi Shao) 9% ---------- Fructus Gardenia Jasminoidis (Gardenia Fruit / Z hi Zi) 8% ---------- Fructus Lycii (Wolfberry, Lycii Berry / Gou Qi Zi) 8% ---------- Herba Artemisiae Yinchenhao (Capillaris Leaf / Yin Chen Hao) 8% ---------- Herba Hedyotidis Diffusae (Oldenlandia / Bai Hua She She Cao) 8% ---------- Radix Astragali Membranaceus (Astragalus Root / Huang Qi) 8% ---------- Radix Bupleuri (Bupleurum Root / Chai Hu) 8% ---------- Radix Salviae Miltiorrhizae (Salvia Root / Dan Shen) 8% ---------- Tuber Curcumae (Tumeric Tuber / Yu Jln) 8% ---------- Radix Polygoni Multiflori (Fo Ti / He Shou Wu) 7% ---------- Fructus Schisandrae Chinensis (Schisandra Fruit / Wu Wei Zi) 6% ---------- Fructus Meliae Toosendan (Melia Fruit / Chuan Lian Zi) 5% Chinese Herbs FAX: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 On Sep 12, 2004, at 8:04 AM, wrote: > I just read a case study where the author was bragging about > prescribing the formula below concurrently with interferon for a six > month continuous period. The formula was prescribed in tablet form and > the L.Ac. attributes the combination therapy to the patient's > remarkable success and lack of side effects. But let's consider a few > things: Does the author give pattern differentiation, pulse and tongue? > > 1. I thought it was considered highly risky to prescribe chai hu > concurrently with interferon and this is one of the few proven d/h > interactions we should be aware of. this thought never passed her > mind. I agree. . . it seems brashly overconfident. > > 2. Using a patent resulted in such a low dose that there were no > side-effects, but also no positive effects. In which case, the > treatment success was due solely to the interferon plus placebo effects > > or > > 3. The low dose of herbs in combination with interferon actually > resulted in increased interferon activity with no side effects (best of > both worlds). While this may be possible theoretically and it is > something I have suggested , I have assumed that in order to achieve > this in clinic, one would need to use small doses of interferon and > large doses of herbs, not the reverse. While interferon may be safer > at low doses when mixed with herbs, if it is used at normal doses, any > amount of chai hu will potentially increase the circulating interferon > in the bloodstream and lead to toxicity. > Definitely risky business any way you look at it. > The L.Ac. in typical snide fashion points out that the MD did not > believe the herbs played any role and did not alter his regimen as a > result (i.e. he used normal interferon doses). I would suggest that > the MD is correct. The L.Ac. was careless to prescribe chai hu to this > patient and the herb company was even more careless to report it. Any > benefit was likely due to placebo and the px is damn lucky nothing bad > happened. Without any clear protocols or data, why should the M.D. change what he is doing? By the way, Michael Broffman and Michael McCullough have done a study treating Hep C patients with herbal medicine combined with interferon that can be found at the Pine Street Foundation website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 On 13/09/2004, at 1:04 AM, wrote: > I just read a case study where the author was bragging about > prescribing the formula below concurrently with interferon for a six > month continuous period. The formula was prescribed in tablet form > and > the L.Ac. attributes the combination therapy to the patient's > remarkable success and lack of side effects. But let's consider a few > things: > > 1. I thought it was considered highly risky to prescribe chai hu > concurrently with interferon and this is one of the few proven d/h > interactions we should be aware of. this thought never passed her > mind. > Hi All, I just received my copy of " Herb Toxicites & Drug Interactions : A formula approach " and one of the first things I looked up was chai hu and xiao chai hu tang to see what the latest was on this issue. To my surprise I found no mention of interferon in relation to chai hu or xiao chai hu tang at all. What is the real situation with this combination? Is it really " considered highly risky to prescribe chai hu concurrently with interferon and this is one of the few proven d/h interactions we should be aware of " as Todd suggested above? Is it just a " storm in a tea-cup " , or if not.......why would it be left out of such a recent publication that is aimed to directly address such issues? Best Wishes, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 the herb Chai Hu raises natural interfron levels therefore there have been many cases in Japan when people are on interferon therpy and die from interferon overdoses. doug , Steven Slater <laozhongyi@m...> wrote: > > On 13/09/2004, at 1:04 AM, wrote: > > > I just read a case study where the author was bragging about > > prescribing the formula below concurrently with interferon for a six > > month continuous period. The formula was prescribed in tablet form > > and > > the L.Ac. attributes the combination therapy to the patient's > > remarkable success and lack of side effects. But let's consider a few > > things: > > > > 1. I thought it was considered highly risky to prescribe chai hu > > concurrently with interferon and this is one of the few proven d/h > > interactions we should be aware of. this thought never passed her > > mind. > > > > Hi All, > > I just received my copy of " Herb Toxicites & Drug Interactions : A > formula approach " and one of the first things I looked up was chai hu > and xiao chai hu tang to see what the latest was on this issue. > > To my surprise I found no mention of interferon in relation to chai hu > or xiao chai hu tang at all. > > What is the real situation with this combination? Is it really > " considered highly risky to prescribe chai hu concurrently with > interferon and this is one of the few proven d/h interactions we > should be aware of " as Todd suggested above? > > Is it just a " storm in a tea-cup " , or if not.......why would it be left > out of such a recent publication that is aimed to directly address such > issues? > > Best Wishes, > > Steve > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 Thanks Doug, I too am aware of the Japanese cases so what I was wondering is if this such a real (death is about as real as herb-drug interactions can get) and well-known issue; why was it left out of this new text on such interactions that is designed for use in clinical practice? Best Wishes, Steve On 07/10/2004, at 3:20 PM, wrote: > > > the herb Chai Hu raises natural interfron levels therefore there have > been many cases in > Japan when people are on interferon therpy and die from interferon > overdoses. > doug > > , Steven Slater > <laozhongyi@m...> wrote: >> >> On 13/09/2004, at 1:04 AM, wrote: >> >>> I just read a case study where the author was bragging about >>> prescribing the formula below concurrently with interferon for a six >>> month continuous period. The formula was prescribed in tablet form >>> and >>> the L.Ac. attributes the combination therapy to the patient's >>> remarkable success and lack of side effects. But let's consider a >>> few >>> things: >>> >>> 1. I thought it was considered highly risky to prescribe chai hu >>> concurrently with interferon and this is one of the few proven d/h >>> interactions we should be aware of. this thought never passed her >>> mind. >>> >> >> Hi All, >> >> I just received my copy of " Herb Toxicites & Drug Interactions : A >> formula approach " and one of the first things I looked up was chai hu >> and xiao chai hu tang to see what the latest was on this issue. >> >> To my surprise I found no mention of interferon in relation to chai hu >> or xiao chai hu tang at all. >> >> What is the real situation with this combination? Is it really >> " considered highly risky to prescribe chai hu concurrently with >> interferon and this is one of the few proven d/h interactions we >> should be aware of " as Todd suggested above? >> >> Is it just a " storm in a tea-cup " , or if not.......why would it be >> left >> out of such a recent publication that is aimed to directly address >> such >> issues? >> >> Best Wishes, >> >> Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 What is this book? Is it the rather nicely done one that came out about 6 months ago with a focus? doug , Steven Slater <laozhongyi@m...> wrote: > Thanks Doug, > > I too am aware of the Japanese cases so what I was wondering is if this > such a real (death is about as real as herb-drug interactions can get) > and well-known issue; why was it left out of this new text on such > interactions that is designed for use in clinical practice? > > Best Wishes, > > Steve > > On 07/10/2004, at 3:20 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > the herb Chai Hu raises natural interfron levels therefore there have > > been many cases in > > Japan when people are on interferon therpy and die from interferon > > overdoses. > > doug > > > > , Steven Slater > > <laozhongyi@m...> wrote: > >> > >> On 13/09/2004, at 1:04 AM, wrote: > >> > >>> I just read a case study where the author was bragging about > >>> prescribing the formula below concurrently with interferon for a six > >>> month continuous period. The formula was prescribed in tablet form > >>> and > >>> the L.Ac. attributes the combination therapy to the patient's > >>> remarkable success and lack of side effects. But let's consider a > >>> few > >>> things: > >>> > >>> 1. I thought it was considered highly risky to prescribe chai hu > >>> concurrently with interferon and this is one of the few proven d/h > >>> interactions we should be aware of. this thought never passed her > >>> mind. > >>> > >> > >> Hi All, > >> > >> I just received my copy of " Herb Toxicites & Drug Interactions : A > >> formula approach " and one of the first things I looked up was chai hu > >> and xiao chai hu tang to see what the latest was on this issue. > >> > >> To my surprise I found no mention of interferon in relation to chai hu > >> or xiao chai hu tang at all. > >> > >> What is the real situation with this combination? Is it really > >> " considered highly risky to prescribe chai hu concurrently with > >> interferon and this is one of the few proven d/h interactions we > >> should be aware of " as Todd suggested above? > >> > >> Is it just a " storm in a tea-cup " , or if not.......why would it be > >> left > >> out of such a recent publication that is aimed to directly address > >> such > >> issues? > >> > >> Best Wishes, > >> > >> Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Hi Doug, The herbal component is TCM herbs only; it is the Blue Poppy publication " Herb Toxicities & Drug Interactions: A formula Approach " by Fred Jennes with Bob Flaws. It is a great book and comes with the a CD-ROM database and online database access etc. I find it has a great deal of useful information, but the omission of interferon and chai hu/xiao chai hu tang really makes me wonder what else it may be missing......Or perhaps their is not sufficient evidence in the opinions of the author's to justify it's inclusion. Bob, if you are on-list at the moment; can you elaborate a little on the chai hu/xiao chai hu tang situation? Best Wishes, Steve On 07/10/2004, at 6:40 PM, wrote: > > > What is this book? Is it the rather nicely done one that came out > about 6 months ago with > a focus? > doug > > , Steven Slater > <laozhongyi@m...> wrote: >> Thanks Doug, >> >> I too am aware of the Japanese cases so what I was wondering is if >> this >> such a real (death is about as real as herb-drug interactions can get) >> and well-known issue; why was it left out of this new text on such >> interactions that is designed for use in clinical practice? >> >> Best Wishes, >> >> Steve >> >> On 07/10/2004, at 3:20 PM, wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> the herb Chai Hu raises natural interfron levels therefore there have >>> been many cases in >>> Japan when people are on interferon therpy and die from interferon >>> overdoses. >>> doug >>> >>> , Steven Slater >>> <laozhongyi@m...> wrote: >>>> >>>> On 13/09/2004, at 1:04 AM, wrote: >>>> >>>>> I just read a case study where the author was bragging about >>>>> prescribing the formula below concurrently with interferon for a >>>>> six >>>>> month continuous period. The formula was prescribed in tablet >>>>> form >>>>> and >>>>> the L.Ac. attributes the combination therapy to the patient's >>>>> remarkable success and lack of side effects. But let's consider a >>>>> few >>>>> things: >>>>> >>>>> 1. I thought it was considered highly risky to prescribe chai hu >>>>> concurrently with interferon and this is one of the few proven d/h >>>>> interactions we should be aware of. this thought never passed her >>>>> mind. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I just received my copy of " Herb Toxicites & Drug Interactions : A >>>> formula approach " and one of the first things I looked up was chai >>>> hu >>>> and xiao chai hu tang to see what the latest was on this issue. >>>> >>>> To my surprise I found no mention of interferon in relation to chai >>>> hu >>>> or xiao chai hu tang at all. >>>> >>>> What is the real situation with this combination? Is it really >>>> " considered highly risky to prescribe chai hu concurrently with >>>> interferon and this is one of the few proven d/h interactions we >>>> should be aware of " as Todd suggested above? >>>> >>>> Is it just a " storm in a tea-cup " , or if not.......why would it be >>>> left >>>> out of such a recent publication that is aimed to directly address >>>> such >>>> issues? >>>> >>>> Best Wishes, >>>> >>>> Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Steven, At the time we put this book together, it was not clear to us that the administration of Chai Hu with interferon had actually caused a DI in the Japanese patients who died. In previous posts on this forum on this issue, it had been pointed out that the symptoms the Japanese patients presented may have been due to the interferon they were taking all by itself. However, neither Fred nor I were aware that Chai Hu naturally raises interferon levels in the body which would/could lead to an interferon overdose. One of the reasons we included the CD with the accompanying CD-accessed website was that it gave us a way of constantly updating this information as new facts emerge. So, is it a fact that Chai Hu increases interferon in the body? If so, where can we go/look to substantiate this? If this does turn out to be w ell substantiated fact, we will update our on-line d-base on this issue. Remember, at the time this book was put together, Chen & Chen had not yet been released. Bob , Steven Slater <laozhongyi@m...> wrote: > Hi Doug, > > The herbal component is TCM herbs only; it is the Blue Poppy > publication " Herb Toxicities & Drug Interactions: A formula Approach " > by Fred Jennes with Bob Flaws. > > It is a great book and comes with the a CD-ROM database and online > database access etc. > > I find it has a great deal of useful information, but the omission of > interferon and chai hu/xiao chai hu tang really makes me wonder what > else it may be missing......Or perhaps their is not sufficient evidence > in the opinions of the author's to justify it's inclusion. > > Bob, if you are on-list at the moment; can you elaborate a little on > the chai hu/xiao chai hu tang situation? > > > Best Wishes, > > Steve > > > On 07/10/2004, at 6:40 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > What is this book? Is it the rather nicely done one that came out > > about 6 months ago with > > a focus? > > doug > > > > , Steven Slater > > <laozhongyi@m...> wrote: > >> Thanks Doug, > >> > >> I too am aware of the Japanese cases so what I was wondering is if > >> this > >> such a real (death is about as real as herb-drug interactions can get) > >> and well-known issue; why was it left out of this new text on such > >> interactions that is designed for use in clinical practice? > >> > >> Best Wishes, > >> > >> Steve > >> > >> On 07/10/2004, at 3:20 PM, wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> the herb Chai Hu raises natural interfron levels therefore there have > >>> been many cases in > >>> Japan when people are on interferon therpy and die from interferon > >>> overdoses. > >>> doug > >>> > >>> , Steven Slater > >>> <laozhongyi@m...> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> On 13/09/2004, at 1:04 AM, wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I just read a case study where the author was bragging about > >>>>> prescribing the formula below concurrently with interferon for a > >>>>> six > >>>>> month continuous period. The formula was prescribed in tablet > >>>>> form > >>>>> and > >>>>> the L.Ac. attributes the combination therapy to the patient's > >>>>> remarkable success and lack of side effects. But let's consider a > >>>>> few > >>>>> things: > >>>>> > >>>>> 1. I thought it was considered highly risky to prescribe chai hu > >>>>> concurrently with interferon and this is one of the few proven d/h > >>>>> interactions we should be aware of. this thought never passed her > >>>>> mind. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> Hi All, > >>>> > >>>> I just received my copy of " Herb Toxicites & Drug Interactions : A > >>>> formula approach " and one of the first things I looked up was chai > >>>> hu > >>>> and xiao chai hu tang to see what the latest was on this issue. > >>>> > >>>> To my surprise I found no mention of interferon in relation to chai > >>>> hu > >>>> or xiao chai hu tang at all. > >>>> > >>>> What is the real situation with this combination? Is it really > >>>> " considered highly risky to prescribe chai hu concurrently with > >>>> interferon and this is one of the few proven d/h interactions we > >>>> should be aware of " as Todd suggested above? > >>>> > >>>> Is it just a " storm in a tea-cup " , or if not.......why would it be > >>>> left > >>>> out of such a recent publication that is aimed to directly address > >>>> such > >>>> issues? > >>>> > >>>> Best Wishes, > >>>> > >>>> Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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