Guest guest Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Just some jottings that are organized in what seems to be a sensible order, but little further detail right now. How does the study of wen bing and shang han guide us in practice? Is it the disease causes or disease mechanisms (2 distinctly different, but related, things that many seem to confuse) that are most important? Its the Pathomechanisms (aka disease mechanisms or PMs). This is what Mitchell and Bensky teach in their SHL classes. Ex: fever does not have to be present for the PMs to be in play; you can use MaHuangT without an acute gan mao Its not necessarily about etiology - which is where much emphasis has lain -- as its easier to grasp the broad strokes of etiology than study the minutiae of PMs. but the etiology can be different and the PMs still the same. this is the crux. An already excessive emphasis on etiology in zang fu prescribing has carried over into SHL and WB as well. Often, regardless of actual s/s, smoking will ALWAYS be determined to cause lung yin xu and the patient is treated as such or sex more than three times a week ALWAYS causes kidney xu, etc. But a lot of times, the etiological theorizing doesn't match up with the presentation of illness in the pt. Ex: AIDs patients may have a latent virus, but they do not present with any classic wen bing patterns unless they get opportunistic infections. OTOH, so-called lurking heat presents with strong internal signs, so the pattern is easily identified and treated even if etiology or labeling is in dispute. In fact, a number of prominent wen bing scholars reject the idea of lurking heat altogether, according to Guohui Liu. Liu Bao Yi certainly faults Ye tian she for not putting enough emphasis on this topic in his writings, yet Ye is certainly the more influential of the two. Ex: if you cough from interior heat in the lungs plus simultaneous ext invasion, you just treat each accordingly. naming it lurking heat does not really change the strategy as long as you understand the pathomechanisms. Or does it? Hx is certainly essential. did something come on suddenly and were sx primarily excess or deficient? Chinese Herbs FAX: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 > > >Sunday, September 12, 2004 1:30 PM >cha > musings on wen bing > >Just some jottings that are organized in what seems to be a sensible >order, but little further detail right now. > >How does the study of wen bing and shang han guide us in practice? Is >it the disease causes or disease mechanisms (2 distinctly different, >but related, things that many seem to confuse) that are most important? > >Its the Pathomechanisms (aka disease mechanisms or PMs). This is what >Mitchell and Bensky teach in their SHL classes. > >Ex: fever does not have to be present for the PMs to be in play; you >can use MaHuangT without an acute gan mao > >Its not necessarily about etiology - which is where much emphasis has >lain -- as its easier to grasp the broad strokes of etiology than study >the minutiae of PMs. but the etiology can be different and the PMs >still the same. this is the crux. > >An already excessive emphasis on etiology in zang fu prescribing has >carried over into SHL and WB as well. Often, regardless of actual >s/s, smoking will ALWAYS be determined to cause lung yin xu and the >patient is treated as such or sex more than three times a week ALWAYS >causes kidney xu, etc. But a lot of times, the etiological theorizing >doesn't match up with the presentation of illness in the pt. Ex: AIDs >patients may have a latent virus, but they do not present with any >classic wen bing patterns unless they get opportunistic infections. > >OTOH, so-called lurking heat presents with strong internal signs, so >the pattern is easily identified and treated even if etiology or >labeling is in dispute. In fact, a number of prominent wen bing >scholars reject the idea of lurking heat altogether, according to >Guohui Liu. Liu Bao Yi certainly faults Ye tian she for not putting >enough emphasis on this topic in his writings, yet Ye is certainly the >more influential of the two. > >Ex: if you cough from interior heat in the lungs plus simultaneous >ext invasion, you just treat each accordingly. naming it lurking heat >does not really change the strategy as long as you understand the >pathomechanisms. Or does it? [Jason] I have also thought this, and agree just treating what you see seems to cover the bases. Meaning naming a lurking pathogen does not really change the treatment. But I think the advantage to understanding that there is a pathogen deep inside the body is one's ability to follow it progression and make use of it's propensity; for example its outward direction. Instead of seeing the snapshot one is able to see the movie and make use of the last and next frames... - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 This is exactly the reason for using the 'immunological maps' such as SHL six channel, WB four aspect, three burner, and latent qi. It allows us to see the whole movie of infectious disease progression, instead of just the isolated here-now presentation. In some situations, one may be able to 'reverse-engineer' the progression diagnostically, and prognose forward to predict disease development using these tools. On Sep 12, 2004, at 3:51 PM, wrote: > I have also thought this, and agree just treating what you see seems to > cover the bases. Meaning naming a lurking pathogen does not really > change > the treatment. But I think the advantage to understanding that there > is a > pathogen deep inside the body is one's ability to follow it > progression and > make use of it's propensity; for example its outward direction. > Instead of > seeing the snapshot one is able to see the movie and make use of the > last > and next frames... > > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 But I think the advantage to understanding that there is a pathogen deep inside the body is one's ability to follow it progression and make use of it's propensity; for example its outward direction. Instead of seeing the snapshot one is able to see the movie and make use of the last and next frames... >>>>>It may change treatment in the sense that you may add guiding herbs such as jian can which you may not think of otherwise alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 > >Alon Marcus [alonmarcus] >Sunday, September 12, 2004 6:17 PM > >Re: musings on wen bing > > >But I think the advantage to understanding that there is a >pathogen deep inside the body is one's ability to follow it progression and >make use of it's propensity; for example its outward direction. Instead of >seeing the snapshot one is able to see the movie and make use of the last >and next frames... > >>>>>>It may change treatment in the sense that you may add guiding herbs >such as jian can which you may not think of otherwise [Jason] Can you elaborate on this one... -Jason >alon > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Can you elaborate on this one... >>>>Some use the idea of guiding out hidden pathogens via the four levels and integrating herbs that are said to have a more specific functions in doing so (not just spicy light herbs). The questions however that i have never understood is if there is no symptomatic manifestation how would you know about hidden pathogens. I know some might say pulse but i have never seen anyone use it successfully. If there are symptoms then such herbs are added to treat retained pathogens when the initial symptoms are diagnosed as being internal. alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Alon, Actually I was more interested in your ideas behind using jiang can...when do you use it? What do you think it does etc etc... -Jason > >Alon Marcus [alonmarcus] >Sunday, September 12, 2004 8:19 PM > >Re: musings on wen bing > >Can you elaborate on this one... >>>>>Some use the idea of guiding out hidden pathogens via the four levels >and integrating herbs that are said to have a more specific functions in >doing so (not just spicy light herbs). The questions however that i have >never understood is if there is no symptomatic manifestation how would you >know about hidden pathogens. I know some might say pulse but i have never >seen anyone use it successfully. If there are symptoms then such herbs are >added to treat retained pathogens when the initial symptoms are diagnosed >as being internal. >alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 Actually I was more interested in your ideas behind using jiang can...when do you use it? What do you think it does etc etc... >>>>I look at sudden flare ups of inflammatory joint disorders as possibly reflecting hidden pathogens and than I incorporate wen bing ideas. It seems to be useful clinically, but only an impression alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 > >Alon Marcus [alonmarcus] >Monday, September 13, 2004 12:45 AM > >Re: musings on wen bing > >Actually I was more interested in your ideas behind using jiang can...when >do you use it? What do you think it does etc etc... > >>>>>I look at sudden flare ups of inflammatory joint disorders as possibly >reflecting hidden pathogens and than I incorporate wen bing ideas. It seems >to be useful clinically, but only an impression >alon [Jason] And you use jiang can for such conditions? -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 And you use jiang can for such conditions >>>>>Among others alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 methinks that there is much musings comparing TCM theories (SHL / Wen Bing / Zang Fu) to the prevalent Western Germ Theory. Perhaps one should consider other theories as well. Pleomorphism, for example is much closer to TCM. Transmissions of disorders like HIV/Aids viewed in the pleo model bring greater clarity to the TCM model. for a look at Pleomorphism http://www.rawpaleodiet.org/pleomorphism-1.html just my 2 cents Ed Kasper LAc Santa Cruz, CA -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.262 / Virus Database: 264.8.5 - Release 9/10/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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