Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 In a message dated 9/22/2004 8:57:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, richblit writes: I just have trouble imagining a shipment of 2 tons of dang gui arriving from the mainland, being checked for heavy metals and when they show levels which are too high (what are their standards of what is high anyway?) the manufacturer halting production, sending the shipment back and waiting for another. This is a really good question in my book. What are allowable metal concentrations according to the US government testing agency? Anybody know? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 There have been a number of articles published recently in newspapers such as the New York Times regarding the horrfic levels of pollution in rural China. In some areas the articles relate rivers running black, fish farms being wiped out, and in some towns members of every household dying of cancer. With my growing awareness of the extremely high levels of pollution in rural China I have become more worried about patients who are taking herbs for long periods of time. Although many herb companies claim they test for specific contaminants I guess I don't trust that they are either completely honest or that they test for all the possible contaminants such as industrial pollutants. I use KPC and Evergreen granules, both made in Taiwan. I just have trouble imagining a shipment of 2 tons of dang gui arriving from the mainland, being checked for heavy metals and when they show levels which are too high (what are their standards of what is high anyway?) the manufacturer halting production, sending the shipment back and waiting for another. I was wondering what other people's opinions are. Can I spot check my herbs myself? What tests need to be run? Are they expensive? Thanks Rich Blitstein PCOM Chicago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 In a message dated 9/22/2004 12:55:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, writes: But blindly supporting their abuses to enrich ourselves is reprehensible (it may be engagement, but it is not constructive). I would suspect both the US presidential candidates pretty much have a hands off policy to China. Not meaning to be rude, but I think this argument is somewhat superficial. There are a lot of issues with china and other countries that go well beyond what is best for the US. China and other " Third World " countries are moving quickly into being part of the world economy. This is a good thing. It was a short time ago that China and Russia were very exclusionary. They are moving quickly into democracy and allowing a greater level of freedom for their people. This is also a good thing. Many people realize that as the citizens of repressed countries gain freedoms, the country will move quicker into alignment with the rest of the world so they may continue gain the benefits of more money and greater choice. If we " allow " their inclusion in world manufacturing while still under less than satisfactory conditions, then as time goes on, we, as a world will be able to in-force a more realistic regulation of their industrial waste and pollution. If we try to in-force regulations that are beyond the countries financial capability or the personal desire of the leaders, they may move away from creating a free and capitalistic state. Long term wisdom may be for repressed states to be able to give financial freedom to the people long enough so there will be no other option than to upgrade their industrial facilities to continue to be part of world trade. Push them to fast and they may bale on the whole idea of capitalism. In the mean time, knowledge will help us choose the best products. As time goes on, it may be our choices of " cleaner " products that force companies to improve the quality of what is offered. Just a thought, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Bob Flaws and others on this list could probably tell us more about herb testing, but for myself, I am also very concerned about herb quality based on these NY times articles I've read. If not for the present, for the not-so-distant future. This is one reason I'd like to see us develop domestic herbal resources in the West. On Sep 22, 2004, at 5:50 AM, richblit wrote: > There have been a number of articles published recently in > newspapers such as the New York Times regarding the horrfic levels > of pollution in rural China. In some areas the articles relate > rivers running black, fish farms being wiped out, and in some towns > members of every household dying of cancer. > With my growing awareness of the extremely high levels of > pollution in rural China I have become more worried about patients > who are taking herbs for long periods of time. > Although many herb companies claim they test for specific > contaminants I guess I don't trust that they are either completely > honest or that they test for all the possible contaminants such as > industrial pollutants. I use KPC and Evergreen granules, both made > in Taiwan. I just have trouble imagining a shipment of 2 tons of > dang gui arriving from the mainland, being checked for heavy metals > and when they show levels which are too high (what are their > standards of what is high anyway?) the manufacturer halting > production, sending the shipment back and waiting for another. > I was wondering what other people's opinions are. Can I spot > check my herbs myself? What tests need to be run? Are they > expensive? > Thanks > Rich Blitstein > PCOM Chicago > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 2 tons of dang gui arriving from the mainland, being checked for heavy metals and when they show levels which are too high (what are their standards of what is high anyway?) >>>>The only thing I know is that sheng cheng (qualiherbs) test their herbs before they are shipped. The buyer stays with the shipment until approval is given and then they are retested when arriving in Taiwan. The only problem is that they do not test all the batches for pesticides. They do test all batches for heavy metals. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Bob Flaws and others on this list could probably tell us more about > herb testing, but for myself, I am also very concerned about herb > quality based on these NY times articles I've read. If not for the > present, for the not-so-distant future. This is one reason I'd like to > see us develop domestic herbal resources in the West. I think KPC and springwind can be trusted. I am very concenred about pollution in china though. But I do not think we will be able to develop domestic resources as a substitute for several reasons. 1. we need complete biochemical profiles of the herbs and all the soil and climate factors that are common to their native area. Then we have to prove with gas chromatography that our american grown herbs are similar enough. Just growing and using herbs in the US when various factors can alter the properties of the plant is a total crapshoot. 2. the cost of labor in the US is prohibitive. even large scale agriculture would probably quadruple the cost of herbs. Small scale and organic far more. herbs would be pushed out of the price range for most folks and insurers would balk at any consideration of reimbursement. If you want to use domestic resources, I think we know far more about the properties of western herbs and naturopathic supplements than we do about chinese herbs grown on American soil. So if you are talking about classifying these substances based upon a century or more of experience, I agree. But as for guessing what chinese herbs grown on American soil might do, I think that is a far sketchier enterprise. Short of laboratory proof or a century of widespread use, it is pure speculation. So we will have to wait 100 years or more (but this will actually never happen as China will be far and away the dominant world economy by then and very few will adopt the use of expensive western grown chinese herbs in the interim). Certainly no one is going to foot the bill for the lab tests as that also would raise costs even more. While this would be highly desirable, I think it is completey unrealistic and our time would be better spent on more pressing issues and more likely solutions. Like since we all live on the same planet and pollution in one country affects us all, why don't we get China to clean up her act. Even the libertarians on this list support environmental regulations. We need to stop pussyfooting around. China is part of the WTO. They either need to get in line or get off the bus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 On 23/09/2004, at 2:23 AM, wrote: > Like since we all live on the same planet and pollution in one > country affects us > all, why don't we get China to clean up her act. Even the > libertarians on this list support > environmental regulations. We need to stop pussyfooting around. > China is part of the > WTO. They either need to get in line or get off the bus. > > > Unfortunately for our environment, I can't see anyone pushing China off the bus now that they are on it and the rest of the business world is making so much (serious vested interests) out of them joining the " trip " which allows them to behave at home (West) but not in others homes (China) so to speak. Best Wishes, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 , Steven Slater <laozhongyi@m...> wrote: > Unfortunately for our environment, I can't see anyone pushing China off > the bus now that they are on it and the rest of the business world is > making so much (serious vested interests) out of them joining the > " trip " which allows them to behave at home (West) but not in others > homes (China) so to speak. Well, we know who is very comfortable with China's current laissez faire economy (oh the irony) and who is not. We have an election coming up in a month here in the US and one can support constructive engagement or boycott; there are cases to be made for both. But blindly supporting their abuses to enrich ourselves is reprehensible (it may be engagement, but it is not constructive). I would suspect both the US presidential candidates pretty much have a hands off policy to China. So it will be the more nuanced thinking of ones senators and reps that will decide the day. Check to see where your elected reps stand and then choose accordingly. If anyone should be boycotted, it is any politician who knowingly damages the shared environment of the world for the sole purpose of enrichment (I will allow that there could be other justifiable reasons, though none come to mind right now). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Hi I agree with all you say here........but I am an Aussie remember;) Not that is anything to be proud of when it comes to protecting the environment........our currently elected leader refused to sign the Kyoto protocol!!!! He really seems to have no mind of his own when the current US leadership whispers in his ear. That said, I won't be trying to extend his stay when we have an election in a few weeks.....his main opposition plans to join the Kyoto protocol as one of his election 'promises'. Best Wishes, Steve On 23/09/2004, at 2:53 AM, wrote: > , Steven Slater > <laozhongyi@m...> wrote: > >> Unfortunately for our environment, I can't see anyone pushing China >> off >> the bus now that they are on it and the rest of the business world is >> making so much (serious vested interests) out of them joining the >> " trip " which allows them to behave at home (West) but not in others >> homes (China) so to speak. > > Well, we know who is very comfortable with China's current laissez > faire economy (oh the > irony) and who is not. We have an election coming up in a month here > in the US and one > can support constructive engagement or boycott; there are cases to be > made for both. > But blindly supporting their abuses to enrich ourselves is > reprehensible (it may be > engagement, but it is not constructive). I would suspect both the US > presidential > candidates pretty much have a hands off policy to China. So it will > be the more nuanced > thinking of ones senators and reps that will decide the day. Check to > see where your > elected reps stand and then choose accordingly. If anyone should be > boycotted, it is any > politician who knowingly damages the shared environment of the world > for the sole > purpose of enrichment (I will allow that there could be other > justifiable reasons, though > none come to mind right now). > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Hi All, Going off subject a bit more, but I read a really hopeful article, relating to this very issue at " Yes " magazine in the latest issue: " China's Future, the World's Future " The article is not online unfortunately, but the main quote that got to me was this: " The flip side of the statistics about China's massive thirst for fossil fuel is that because China is so huge, even modest adoption rates of solar, wind, hydrogen and other renewables could mean the price drop of renewable energy and related technology globally. China could create previously unknown economies of scale. Imagine that. " http://www.futurenet.org/default.asp So my question is, what could practitioners and people in contact with China do to encourage alternatives and educating about sustainable realities? The Bioneer's conference is meeting Oct. 15-18 , 04. Lots of it is being televised to long distance education sites. I mention this cause this group was founded by a group CAM, and other concerned medical people. Rozz Musiclear wrote: >In a message dated 9/22/2004 12:55:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > writes: >But blindly supporting their abuses to enrich ourselves is reprehensible (it >may be >engagement, but it is not constructive). I would suspect both the US >presidential >candidates pretty much have a hands off policy to China. > > > Not meaning to be rude, but I think this argument is somewhat >superficial. There are a lot of issues with china and other countries that go well >beyond what is best for the US. > China and other " Third World " countries are moving quickly into being >part of the world economy. This is a good thing. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Your points are well noted. I would add, however, that I see a future both for the integration of naturopathic methods and treatments into Chinese medicine, including herbal medicinals, and the cultivation of Chinese medicinals in the West. Of course, the biochemical profiles and soil/climate factors will have to be considered before using the herbs in the clinic. But I think even though they will be more expensive, there is a potential market for organically grown Chinese herbs of high quality, whether grown here or in China. The higher the quality, the better the potency, the less dosage needed. Already efforts are underway to begin growing Chinese herbs in northern California. On Sep 22, 2004, at 9:23 AM, wrote: > I think KPC and springwind can be trusted. I am very concenred about > pollution in china > though. But I do not think we will be able to develop domestic > resources as a substitute > for several reasons. > > 1. we need complete biochemical profiles of the herbs and all the > soil and climate factors > that are common to their native area. Then we have to prove with gas > chromatography > that our american grown herbs are similar enough. Just growing and > using herbs in the US > when various factors can alter the properties of the plant is a total > crapshoot. > > 2. the cost of labor in the US is prohibitive. even large scale > agriculture would probably > quadruple the cost of herbs. Small scale and organic far more. herbs > would be pushed > out of the price range for most folks and insurers would balk at any > consideration of > reimbursement. > > If you want to use domestic resources, I think we know far more about > the properties of > western herbs and naturopathic supplements than we do about chinese > herbs grown on > American soil. So if you are talking about classifying these > substances based upon a > century or more of experience, I agree. But as for guessing what > chinese herbs grown on > American soil might do, I think that is a far sketchier enterprise. > Short of laboratory proof > or a century of widespread use, it is pure speculation. So we will > have to wait 100 years or > more (but this will actually never happen as China will be far and > away the dominant world > economy by then and very few will adopt the use of expensive western > grown chinese > herbs in the interim). Certainly no one is going to foot the bill for > the lab tests as that also > would raise costs even more. While this would be highly desirable, I > think it is completey > unrealistic and our time would be better spent on more pressing issues > and more likely > solutions. Like since we all live on the same planet and pollution in > one country affects us > all, why don't we get China to clean up her act. Even the > libertarians on this list support > environmental regulations. We need to stop pussyfooting around. > China is part of the > WTO. They either need to get in line or get off the bus. > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Sheng Chang. Their final products (granules) are tested for the sum of 20ppm which also means pretty much nothing. >>>>>Simon have you found high mercury in non ocean type herbs? Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Simon, how does mercury get into the E Jiao? And how did you find out about this? Julie > Mercury, Cadmium, Arsenic and Lead. All of them. Saying that Chinese herbs > don't have a heavy metal problem is shutting the eyes to the reality. We may > not need to worry about pesticides in granules.but certainly about heavy > metals. For example, e jiao is extremely often polluted with quite high > doses of mercury. > > > > Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 " ...phytochemical nutrients which are commonly found in food [including soy, fruits, vegetables, tea, many health products, and vitamins] have been discovered to form deadly cancer causing substances when consumed or combined with chlorinated tap water... " Government agencies do not inspect food, health supplement, and pharmaceutical drug, preparation, and production relating to use of chlorinated tap water - inspections and testing are only of the finished product. References Recer, P; Water chlorine byproduct may be cancer risk; June 18, 1997; Associated Press Christman, RF; Kronberg, K; Singh, R; Ball, LM; Johnson, DJ; Report 259: Identification of Mutagenic By-products from Aquatic Humic Chlorination; North Carolina State University Rhomberg, L Ph.D.; Risk In Perspective: Are Chemicals In the Environment Disrupting Hormonal Control Of Growth and Development? April 1, 1996; Harvard Center for Risk Analysis Japanese data related to MX and the Shizuoka Prefectural University has been extracted from various abstracts published by the American Water Works Association (AWWA), and the National Institute of Health (NIH). Ed Kasper LAc. Santa Cruz, CA -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.271 / Virus Database: 264.9.6 - Release 9/24/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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