Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Todd ( & others) I asked Guo Hui Liu this weekend the question, " what do we do when the pathogen is still lurking? " He commented that one does nothing and just tries to prevent it from coming out. He could not come up with any sources or cases that discussed brining out a lurking pathogen (on purpose). -Jason <http://ChineseMedicineDoc.com> tel: <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=30064918855 & v0=295000 & k0=1975548621> Add me to your address book... <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a signature like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 , " " <@c...> wrote: > > ( & others) > > > > I asked Guo Hui Liu this weekend the question, " what do we do when the > pathogen is still lurking? " He commented that one does nothing and just > tries to prevent it from coming out. He could not come up with any sources > or cases that discussed brining out a lurking pathogen (on purpose). > yet in his own book, he writes that when it arises by itself, it is a good thing because it can be treated. just because the chinese never figured out how to induce this doesn't mean its not desirable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 > > >Wednesday, September 22, 2004 8:46 AM > > Re: LP > > , " " <@c...> >wrote: >> >> > ( & others) >> >> >> >> I asked Guo Hui Liu this weekend the question, " what do we do when the >> pathogen is still lurking? " He commented that one does nothing and just >> tries to prevent it from coming out. He could not come up with any >sources >> or cases that discussed brining out a lurking pathogen (on purpose). >> > >yet in his own book, he writes that when it arises by itself, it is a good >thing because it can >be treated. just because the chinese never figured out how to induce this >doesn't mean its >not desirable. [Jason] I agree... but when one includes diseases such as herpes as lurking pathogen (which GHL does interestingly) it seems better not to invoke such an outbreak... I guess it all depends if one can 'cure' the disease or rid the body permanently from such a pathogen. Would you agree? -Jason > >Todd > > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a >free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 , " " <@c...> wrote: > [Jason] > I agree... but when one includes diseases such as herpes as lurking pathogen > (which GHL does interestingly) it seems better not to invoke such an > outbreak... I guess it all depends if one can 'cure' the disease or rid the > body permanently from such a pathogen. Would you agree? My own experience in tx herpes is that the virus cannot be cleared and preventing outbreaks is best. formulas like jia wei xiao yao san are often better for this in the long run than long dan xie gan tang. It certainly makes no sense to use this a preventive if no signs of warm disease are present between outbreaks. But even repeated use during outbreaks does not seem to lessen the pathogen over time. In fact, indiscriminate and repeated use actually seems to worsen the condition over time. My theory has been that the spleen damage from using LDXGT worsens the dampheat and weakens the ability of the zheng qi to hold the pathogen at bay. But based upon more recent reading, it seems that keeping qi and blood free flowing may be a key part of the strategy. As the pathogen generates more heat and drives deeper in this scenario. I wonder if herpes lurks in the ying level and moves into the blood when zheng qi is weak. But it still burns yin there. Wouldn't it make sense to move qi and supplement yin in patients with known lurking heat? As for AI dz, flareups due usually lead to downward spirals of health, so inducing them may seem unwise. but perhaps this is because they are not treated correctly at these times. MDs usually use short term steroids, for example, a very suppressive drug. Perhaps inducing them to surface could be helpful if proper therapy was applied. As for things like CFS, I there is no risk in inducing a flareup. Keep in mind, I do not use this approach - yet. But I have worked with enough Naturopaths to see it work over and over again. When many of us started studying TCM, we got on our high and mighties about how superior TCM was to naturopathy, with their emphasis on cleansing, fasting, colonics, raw foods, etc. Silly hippies who didn't adhere to the true wisdom of the ancients. Yet what cannot be denied is that their " crazy " therapies often work. Now I am not talking about the vegan crowd. This is an aberration of naturopathy. Veganism was therapy only, not maintenance. Colonics were not meant to be weekly or daily and fasting was occasional. All the old timers and founders of the field were meat eaters (Bastyr, Dick, Lust, Felter, Kent). A balanced naturopathic approach is quite effective and their method of inducing the healing crisis is something we really need to revisit as a profession. The integration of east and west must consider the insights of western holistic medicine not just just allopathy in order to be complete. It is very possible that the healing crisis could be a key to handling lurking pathogen cases. It is certainly no coincidence that the association of the healing crisis and the cure of serious illnesses is a constant theme in naturopathic literature for over 100 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 > > >Wednesday, September 22, 2004 10:06 AM > > Re: LP > > , " " <@c...> >wrote: > >> [Jason] >> I agree... but when one includes diseases such as herpes as lurking >pathogen >> (which GHL does interestingly) it seems better not to invoke such an >> outbreak... I guess it all depends if one can 'cure' the disease or rid >the >> body permanently from such a pathogen. Would you agree? > > >My own experience in tx herpes is that the virus cannot be cleared and >preventing >outbreaks is best. formulas like jia wei xiao yao san are often better for >this in the long >run than long dan xie gan tang. It certainly makes no sense to use this a >preventive if no >signs of warm disease are present between outbreaks. But even repeated use >during >outbreaks does not seem to lessen the pathogen over time. In fact, >indiscriminate and >repeated use actually seems to worsen the condition over time. My theory >has been that >the spleen damage from using LDXGT worsens the dampheat and weakens the >ability of >the zheng qi to hold the pathogen at bay. But based upon more recent >reading, it seems >that keeping qi and blood free flowing may be a key part of the strategy. >As the pathogen >generates more heat and drives deeper in this scenario. I wonder if herpes >lurks in the >ying level and moves into the blood when zheng qi is weak. But it still >burns yin there. >Wouldn't it make sense to move qi and supplement yin in patients with known >lurking >heat? > >As for AI dz, flareups due usually lead to downward spirals of health, so >inducing them >may seem unwise. but perhaps this is because they are not treated >correctly at these >times. MDs usually use short term steroids, for example, a very >suppressive drug. Perhaps >inducing them to surface could be helpful if proper therapy was applied. >As for things like >CFS, I there is no risk in inducing a flareup. Keep in mind, I do not use >this approach - >yet. But I have worked with enough Naturopaths to see it work over and >over again. [Jason] Do naturopaths any type of venting idea once the pathogen in unleashed... Or Do they keep cleansing (maybe moderating it) until s/s are gone? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Could someone that is familiar with homotoxicology give a brief synopsis? Isn't this style supposed to bring out lurking pathogens? - > > >Wednesday, September 22, 2004 10:06 AM > > Re: LP > > , " " <@c...> >wrote: > >> [Jason] >> I agree... but when one includes diseases such as herpes as lurking >pathogen >> (which GHL does interestingly) it seems better not to invoke such an >> outbreak... I guess it all depends if one can 'cure' the disease or rid >the >> body permanently from such a pathogen. Would you agree? > > >My own experience in tx herpes is that the virus cannot be cleared and >preventing >outbreaks is best. formulas like jia wei xiao yao san are often better for >this in the long >run than long dan xie gan tang. It certainly makes no sense to use this a >preventive if no >signs of warm disease are present between outbreaks. But even repeated use >during >outbreaks does not seem to lessen the pathogen over time. In fact, >indiscriminate and >repeated use actually seems to worsen the condition over time. My theory >has been that >the spleen damage from using LDXGT worsens the dampheat and weakens the >ability of >the zheng qi to hold the pathogen at bay. But based upon more recent >reading, it seems >that keeping qi and blood free flowing may be a key part of the strategy. >As the pathogen >generates more heat and drives deeper in this scenario. I wonder if herpes >lurks in the >ying level and moves into the blood when zheng qi is weak. But it still >burns yin there. >Wouldn't it make sense to move qi and supplement yin in patients with known >lurking >heat? > >As for AI dz, flareups due usually lead to downward spirals of health, so >inducing them >may seem unwise. but perhaps this is because they are not treated >correctly at these >times. MDs usually use short term steroids, for example, a very >suppressive drug. Perhaps >inducing them to surface could be helpful if proper therapy was applied. >As for things like >CFS, I there is no risk in inducing a flareup. Keep in mind, I do not use >this approach - >yet. But I have worked with enough Naturopaths to see it work over and >over again. When >many of us started studying TCM, we got on our high and mighties about how >superior >TCM was to naturopathy, with their emphasis on cleansing, fasting, colonics, >raw foods, >etc. Silly hippies who didn't adhere to the true wisdom of the ancients. >Yet what cannot >be denied is that their " crazy " therapies often work. > >Now I am not talking about the vegan crowd. This is an aberration of >naturopathy. >Veganism was therapy only, not maintenance. Colonics were not meant to be >weekly or >daily and fasting was occasional. All the old timers and founders of the >field were meat >eaters (Bastyr, Dick, Lust, Felter, Kent). A balanced naturopathic >approach is quite >effective and their method of inducing the healing crisis is something we >really need to >revisit as a profession. The integration of east and west must consider >the insights of >western holistic medicine not just just allopathy in order to be complete. >It is very possible >that the healing crisis could be a key to handling lurking pathogen cases. >It is certainly no >coincidence that the association of the healing crisis and the cure of >serious illnesses is a >constant theme in naturopathic literature for over 100 years. > >Todd > > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a >free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 > >WMorris116 [WMorris116] >Wednesday, September 22, 2004 7:26 PM > > LP > >Jason - > >Maybe you or Dr Liu could speak to the inadvertent expulsion of latent >pathogens during treatment? [Jason] I am unsure of what you are looking for... But basically I have read case studies that show that what seems to be the course of a normal treatment, a small detail is overlooked or the patient's lifestyle brings about the unleashing of a lurking pathogen. This was not considered at all a good sign. In one situation that comes to mind, the patient was extremely sick and almost died because of the lurking pathogen being brought out. - > >Best - > >Will > > >> Message: 8 >> Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:42:47 -0600 >> " " >> LP >> >> >> > ( & others) >> >> >> >> I asked Guo Hui Liu this weekend the question, " what do we do when the >> pathogen is still lurking? " He commented that one does nothing and just >> tries to prevent it from coming out. He could not come up with any >sources >> or cases that discussed brining out a lurking pathogen (on purpose). >> >> >> >> -Jason >> >> > > >William R. Morris, L.Ac., O.M.D. >Dean of Educational Advancement >Emperor's College of Oriental Medicine >310-453-8300 phone >310-829-3838 fax >will > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.