Gu Syndrome

[Guest guest]

Laura and Todd -

 

I disagree with many of the more trendy discussions of gu syndrome. From my

research, it appears to be a combined form of witchcraft and biological

warfare. I.e.. gu toxins are created by placing scorpions, centipedes,

spiders and other toxic crawling creatures into a shell so they consume each

other leaving the most dangerous and toxic material. This is then placed

into the well of a neighboring town.

 

The theory of gu is still prevalent in the countryside and to ask about it

may suggest too much special knowledge about such topics, thus causing one

to be suspect. Nonetheless, here is a piece I translated with Christine

Chang from Sun Si Miao's One Thousand Treasures Formulary.

 

A. Detoxify Gu syndromes

B. If the diarrhea has blood that is a red or black color with small

volume, this is always a Gu toxin. Most untrained physicians will call this

diarrhea. One who contracts Gu toxins may have diarrhea or vomit that looks

like smashed meat. There may be a sensation inside as if something is

biting. If this remains untreated, it will ruin the five organs and cause

death. The easy way to diagnose Gu toxin is to have the patient spit into

the water. If the spit sinks into the water it is Gu if it doesn't sink, it

is not Gu. [This passage is consistent with the symptoms of GI tract cancer]

 

The formulas:

 

Formula I

 

Qian Zao Gen (Radix Rubiae cordifoliae) 3 liang

 

He Gen (Lotus root) 3 liang

 

Use 4 cups of water cook to two cups and drink immediately

 

Formula II

 

Shi Hu (inside skin) (Dendrobium) 2 liang

 

Tao Gen (peach root) 1 liang

 

Wei Pi (porcupine skin) roast and grind to powder

 

Ma Zi Zhi (sesame oil) 5 cups

 

Fa Hui (crnis carbinosatis) .5 liang

 

First, cook the Shi Hu and Tao Gen and cook in 4 cups of water reducing to

two.

 

Mix this with sesame oil and hair ash and let the patient eat one tablespoon

of this.

 

Prepare a basin of water for vomit and stimulate the throat to elicit vomit.

 

In the beginning, the vomit looks like saliva. Then a small animal like mass

will come and the rest of the Gu toxins will follow.

 

 

 

Formula III

 

Shi Hu (inside skin) (Dendrobium) 5 cun long and one handfull

 

Use three cups of water reduce to one cup. Take on an empty stomach and

encourage vomit, then the Gu worms will come out.

 

Formula IV

 

Wei Pi (porcupine skin) roast and grind to powder

 

Take one tablespoon with water, induce vomit and the Gu will come out.

 

 

<< , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...>

wrote:

> Hi pardon my naivete, but what is gu syndrome? >>

 

I am busy for a few days. can someone else field this?

 

Best - Will

 

William R. Morris, L.Ac., O.M.D.

Dean of Educational Advancement

Emperor's College of Oriental Medicine

310-453-8300 phone

310-829-3838 fax

will

[Guest guest]

, " Will " <will@e...> wrote:

> Laura and Todd -

>

> I disagree with many of the more trendy discussions of gu syndrome. From =

my

> research, it appears to be a combined form of witchcraft and biological

> warfare.

 

I am not sure what you mean by trendy. Heiner Fruehauf has written the mos=

t detailed

introduction to this subject in English. Bob Flaws has also researched it.=

Both Fruehauf

and Flaws have found that this concept, like many CM concepts, though roote=

d in

demonology, has evolved into a more naturalistic concept. Here is an essay=

of mine

summarizing my experience with Heiner Fruehauf's teaching on the matter. H=

einer is a

personal teacher of mine. The footnotes are from the following articles:

 

34.? Fruehauf, Heiner, ¡°Gu Syndrome:? A Forgotten Clinical Approach to Chr=

onic

Parasitism¡±, Journal of #57, pg. 11

35.? Ibid, pp. 13-14

36.? Flaws, Bob, Gu Parasites & Yin Fire Theory, bluepoppy.com

37.? Fruehauf, Heiner, ¡°Gu Syndrome:? A Forgotten Clinical Approach to Chr=

onic

Parasitism¡±, Journal of #57, pg. 13

38.? Bob Flaws, Personal Correspondence, 9/24/99

39.? Fruehauf, Heiner, ¡°Gu Syndrome:? A Forgotten Clinical Approach to Chr=

onic

Parasitism¡±, Journal of #57, pg. 13

40.? Ibid, pg. 15

41.? Flaws, Bob, Zhu dan-xi on Gu Conditions, bluepoppy.com

42.? Fruehauf, personal correspondence, 10/21/99

43.? Bob Flaws, Personal Correspondence, 9/24/99

44.? Flaws, Bob, Zhu dan-xi on Gu Conditions, bluepoppy.com

45.? Fruehauf, Heiner, ¡°Gu Syndrome:? A Forgotten Clinical Approach to Chr=

onic

Parasitism¡±, Journal of #57, pg. 16

 

 

Heiner Fruehauf has written and lectured at length for the past few years a=

bout his take on

Gu syndrome.? Gu syndrome is the result of some sort of evil infestation.? =

This may

include worms, protozoa, bacteria and viruses from the modern perspective.?=

In ancient

times. gu syndrome was associated with demonic possession, because of the b=

izarre

mental symptoms patients often exhibit.? Because of this textual emphasis o=

n demons, the

modern communists were pretty quick to jettison this pattern when they stan=

dardized

TCM.? However, the frequent mention of GU in classical texts and the claims=

of cure for

stubborn chronic ailments caught the eye of Fruehauf.

 

Fruehauf practices in Portland, Oregon and has seen a lot of knotty cases o=

ver the years.?

We mentioned Dr. Fruehauf earlier in the lesson on the six stage theory.? F=

ruehauf was

trained inthe classical method of zhang zhong jing and relies heavily on th=

ese ancient

formulae in his practice.? Fruehauf also likes Li dong yuan¡¯s dynamic meth=

od of regulating

the stomach and spleen, so he has always focused on the qi mechanism in his=

teaching

and practice.? However, certain patients with chronic digestive and mental =

complaints were

not getting well using standard methods.? Noting that many of these patient=

s had

presently or previously tested positive for various parasites led Dr. Frueh=

auf on a peculiar

journey through the archive of Chinese medicine.? In the process, he uneart=

hed another

piece of the puzzle of how to treat chronic illness through regulation of t=

he qi mechanism.

 

It is important to begin with the understanding that gu syndrome is not an =

acute parasite

invasion.? It often begins that way, but according to Fruehauf, gu is the ¡=

°state of extreme

stagnation and mental and physical decay ... [caused] by parasites that com=

bine their toxic

potential to gradually putrefy the patient¡¯s body and mind.¡±34? Other cha=

racteristics of Gu

reinforce its association with mysterious chronic illnesses.? Gu causes not=

iceable problems

long after an initial infection was apparently resolved.? Patients often ex=

perience diverse

unusual groups of symptoms.? Digestive symptoms can be severe and painful, =

with

aberration of appetites and cravings.? Symptoms of hot, cold, photophobia a=

nd

fibromyalgia/arthralgia are common.? Depression, anger, anxiety, insomnia a=

re a few of

many mental aberrations.? Patients may feel possesed or even have seizures.=

? So food

allergy, candida, multiple chemical sensitivity, fibromyalgia and other com=

mon diagnoses

may all be related to gu syndrome in some cases.

 

According to Fruehauf, Gu only occurs in a weakened individual, so the ther=

apeutic

approach relies on strategies that supplement deficiency as well as expel g=

u toxins.?

Longterm gu patients cannot handle the very hot or very cold herbs often us=

ed to treat

parasites.? They are thus prescribed rather unusual formulae that kill para=

sites directly in

some cases, but focus more on calming the mind, as well as supplementing an=

d moving

both the qi and the blood.? The herbs selected in these various categories =

are specific for

their anti-gu nature.? Not just any herbs will do.? The key to anti-gu ther=

apy is the use of

large dosages of surface relieving herbs.? According to Fruehauf, large dos=

ages of surface

relieving herbs like bo he and zi su ye have a penetrating effect on the sy=

stem.? They

illuminate the dark places where gu toxins lodge and allow the other herbs =

in the formula

to reach to every crevice of the body.35

 

Bob Flaws has noticed that the formulae suggested for gu syndrome bear a st=

riking

resemblance to Li dong yuan¡¯s methodology for yin fire discussed above.36?=

Remember, Li

was famous for his explicit use of surface relieving herbs to ascend the sp=

leen qi.? While

zhang zhong jing was the first to actually do this, Li was the first to wri=

te about this

methodology at length.? So both approaches use surface relieving herbs, ton=

ics and heat

clearing agents simultaneously to treat a problem rooted in the digestive s=

ystem.?

However, there are distinct differences, as well.? According to Fruehauf, G=

u specialists

used much larger doses of surface relievers than spleen/stomach specialists=

because their

intent was penetration of the darkest recesses where gu may have lodged, ra=

ther than

merely uplifting the qi.? Fruehauf has also stated that certain tonics are =

also prohibited in

Gu, particularly ginseng, one of Li¡¯s favorites.? Ginseng is said to worse=

n gu and is often

used as a diagnostic indicator thereof (i.e. if a very depleted patient bec=

omes violently ill

upon taking ginseng, you should consider gu syndrome).37

 

In any event, there are distinct relationships between certain aspects of g=

u treatment and

regulation of the qi mechanism.? First, the very nature of gu is to disrupt=

the qi

mechanism.? The traditional description of gu is that of oil mixing with fl=

our.39? Basically,

the toxin has seeped into and bound up with the tissues of the body.? This =

can only

happen when the body becomes incapable of separating pure and turbid.? In t=

he weakened

patient, food-borne parasites that are not fully expelled remain in the cen=

tral and lower

burners brewing and putrefying.? Thus, the pure is now unable to ascend , t=

he most

profound sign of this being the mental aberrations.? The turbid fails to be=

descended and

excreted properly.? The accumulation of turbidity and toxicity further aggr=

avate the GI and

mental symptoms.? Meanwhile, the body is unable to replenish it¡¯s postnata=

l jing from

food and the kidneys are thus drained of their essences.

 

We often see our old friend dampheat associated with gu, especially if no s=

trong cooling

treatments have yet been applied.? It is common to treat chronic parasites =

with strong

cooling antimicrobials like berberine, flagyl, nystatin, capryllic acid, et=

c.40? While these

substances may have some role in gu therapy, according to Fruehauf, they do=

not address

the deep penetration of the toxin outside the GI tract nor do they restore =

the qi

mechanism in any way.? Treating dampheat makes sense at this stage, but sta=

ndard

dampheat treatments will not work on gu patients.?? So while herbs like lon=

icera, forsythia,

sophora and artemisia qing hao are used to clear dampheat? toxin, they must=

be combined

with the penetrating herbs like zi su ye.? So like most of our other approa=

ches, dampheat

and the qi mechanism are at the core of this pathology and the therapeutic =

approach

described in ancient texts implicitly recognizes this in formula design.

 

Fruehauf discusses two basic gu patterns.? The first is more of the damphea=

t pattern we

have been discussing so far.? The recommended formula is called su he tang =

and was

originally recorded in Zhi Gu Xin Fang (New Methods for Gu Treatment, Lu Sh=

unde, Qing

Dynasty).? Since this formula also includes cooling moistening herbs and mi=

ld yin tonics

like sheng di, xuan shen, huang jing and bai he, it is as much of an homage=

to zhu dan xi

as li dong yuan, perhaps.? Remember, it was zhu who focused on the enduring=

damage to

yin fluids that was caused by dampheat, which itself arose due to qi mechan=

ism

disruption.? There seems to be something counterintuitive about choosing su=

ch herbs in a

bloated digestive condition, yet Fruehauf puts great emphasis on herbs like=

sheng di, xuan

shen, huang jing and bai he in this condition, as well as qi lifting tonics=

like huang qi.

 

Bob Flaws has pointed out that zhu dan xi actually wrote about gu in his se=

minal Ge Zhi Yu

Lun.41? The chapter in question is titled " Drum Distension " (chinese: gu zh=

ang).? While the

gu that means drum is a different character than the gu that means " worm " , =

the worm-gu

is often substituted for the drum-gu in the term gu zhang.? This is because=

drum

distension is often related to gu poison.? Drum distension is a severe form=

of abdominal

pain.? According to Wiseman in his Practical Dictionary of TCM, drum disten=

sion is almost

always related to liver spleen disharmony.? It is often caused by alcoholis=

m, as well as gu

poison.? According to both Flaws and Fruehauf,42 Zhu appears to state that =

drum

distension is essentially synonymous with gu-worm distension.

 

However, Zhu's indicated formulae focus on supplementing deficiency, rather=

than

attacking gu poison directly.? While there is definitely similarity between=

Zhu's herb

selection and that of Fruehauf, the absence of penetrating wind medicinals =

and anti gu

toxin clearing herbs is notable.? Like Fruehauf, Zhu makes the point that g=

u is a severe

deficiency condition and treats accordingly.? Yet the absence of herbs that=

directly attack

worms leads me to believe that Zhu was using the term gu-worm in a more gen=

eral sense

of poison penetrating the system, yet not involving parasites.? Zhu also us=

es Ginseng,

which Fruehauf has declared a prohibited herb in gu syndrome, a point Flaws=

disputes.43?

Nevertheless, Zhu's explanation of the gu pathomechanism and formula select=

ion is

instructive for us.? He puts considerable emphasis on the qi mechanism and =

dampheat, as

we would now expect. In his own words,

 

" The seven affects damage the internal, the six environmental excesses inva=

de from

outside, food and drink are had without restraint, and chamber taxation cau=

ses vacuity.

[Any of these causes may] damage spleen earth yin [and consequently,] the o=

ffice of

transportation and conveyance may fail to carry out its duty. Although the =

stomach [still]

receives grains, [the spleen] cannot transport or transform them. As a resu=

lt, yang keeps

on upbearing itself and yin keeps on downbearing itself, resulting in the d=

isadvantageous

divorce between heaven and earth. When this happens, clearness and turbidit=

y are

confused together and the tunnels are congested and held up. Qi transforms =

into the

turbid, and blood becomes stagnated with depressive heat [being generated].=

When heat

remains for long, qi transforms into dampness. Dampness and heat mutually e=

ngender,

thus giving rise to distention and fullness. This is what the classic calls=

drum distention

because, though hard and full, the abdomen is empty with nothing inside, [t=

hus]

resembling a drum. The disease is persistent, firmly fixed, and difficult t=

o cure. It is also

called gu. Because it is as if [one were] invaded and being eaten by worms,=

therefore, [this

kind of distention] is called gu. " 44

?

 

Fruehauf also presents a cold gu syndrome and his chosen formula, jia jian =

su he tang, is

very similar to variations of li dong yuan¡¯s famous bu zhong yi qi tang (m=

inus the ginseng,

of course).? Unlike zhu¡¯s variation, Fruehauf¡¯s does not use cooling herb=

s, but actually

warming and qi moving herbs at this stage, so he is obviously describing a =

more classic

cold condition in this case, rather than a yin fire syndrome.45? In clinic,=

one may actually

prescribe something more between the hot and cold type gu formula.? The net=

result

would probably look a lot like the formulae recommended by both Zhu dan xi =

and li dong

yuan for this type of condition (i.e. chronic illness rooted in vacuity wit=

h concomitant heat

and stasis).?? What this reinforces is that there are multiple causes of qi=

mechanism

disharmony and treatment varies accordingly.? In some cases, similar strate=

gies may be

used for diverse etiology, so it is always vital to evaluate the case caref=

ully.? Gu syndrome

is a difficult diagnosis to make properly.? In ancient times, it was largel=

y a diagnosis of

exclusion, determined by failure of other therapies.? In modern times, the =

presence of

parasites in a stool culture are highly indicative of gu, however the absen=

ce of these

pathogens does not rule out gu.? In some cases, the pathogen is gone and on=

ly the poison

remains.

 

It is not surprising that gu syndrome is treated with methods that seem to =

borrow from

the methods of Li Dong Yuan and Zhu Dan xi.? After all, the gu specialists =

culminated their

theories in the late qing dynasty.? They were no doubt familiar with the wo=

rks of these

great masters, who lived many centuries before and were both well known in =

qing times.?

In addition to treating enduring yin damage with cooling herbs, gu formulae=

also address

dampheat without overuse of harsh bitter cooling herbs.? So, as well as usi=

ng herbs like

lian qiao and jin yin hua instead of ones like huang lian and huang bai, th=

e inclusion of

chai hu and sheng ma as additional standard ingredients surely also represe=

nt the

influence of Li Dong Yuan.? The formulae are notable for their inclusion of=

qi movers, but

the absence of herbs that either purge the bowels or disinhibit urination.?=

Thus, a

sophisticated variation on the treatment of yin fire emerges, as Flaws has =

suggested.

[Guest guest]

Todd do you have experience using the Gu principles in clinic? if yes can you

post some examples with formulae used

thanks alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...>

wrote:

do you have experience using the Gu principles in clinic? if yes can you

post some

examples with formulae used

 

 

only my observation of Heiner. My understanding is academic and I can't say for

sure if

this concept has any clinical utility.

 

[Guest guest]

I've had numerous cases over the years for which the most obvious initial

formulas did not work, and for which I eventually got results using

anti-Parasitic, clearing Damp Heat herbs, and anti-Toxin herbs in combination

with whatever else was happening - Blood Stasis is certainly common in many of

these complex illnesses. I've observed among my own students that Blood Stasis

is one of the most frequently underestimated syndromes. Many of the standard

reference texts list as indications for Blood Stasis as purple tongue, and that

grayish tongue is more Qi-Stagnation, but in my own practice, I've learned to

modify this distinction to be more flexible and fuzzy. I see a lot of cases that

respond well to Blood invigorating herbs in combination with tonics and heat

clearing herbs, for which the indications of Blood Stagnation are subtle, such

as dusky-gray tongue tissue and slightly choppy pulses. Choppy quality in the

pulse is also a feature that seems to be one of the more difficult qualities for

students to pick up. Distention and distortions of the sublingual veins are also

a useful indicator.

 

As for the ability of surface-relieving herbs in large doses to use as

penetrators, I've only seen hints of this in the standard TCM literature, so's article was interesting to me. I have used large doses of fresh ginger

and cinnamon twigs in combination with anti-parasitic herbs plus whatever else

is indicated (Blood-invigorators, tonics, etc.) as these herbs in combination

seem to speed up the results in Gu-type cases. And Todd's comments that surface

relieving herbs in large doses can penetrate deeper regions of the body make

sense to me. I've used large doses of both fresh ginger and cinnamon in this

manner (up to 5x the standard daily dose) - for short periods of time, as in

intermittent " blasts " , as this can be somewhat irritating if used without

frequent breaks. I've also used large doses of Rx Ledebouriella (5x standard

daily dose) for heavy metal toxicity, including arsenic, and I wonder how many

Gu-type syndromes overlap with at least a component of heavy metal toxicity -

insomnia and other CNS symptoms, weakened Protective Qi, digestive complaints

are common to many types of heavy metal toxicity.

 

However, in spite of how interesting the ancient TCM literature on " Gu " may be

from a historical perspective, why not take the bull by the horns and recognize

that what this implies is that microbial/parasitic influences on chronic

diseases may be more significant that is usually admitted in current TCM

thinking, and take advantage of the modern medical literature on infectious

diseases? " Gu " is a very general term, which is not too helpful in doing an

assessment and deciding what herbs to use. There are thousands of types of Gu,

and that is where the microbiology and clinical pathology help out, plus a

knowledge of the specific anti-microbial, anti-parasitic actions of herbs.

 

---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

 

 

 

> " " <

>Re: Gu Syndrome

>

> , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...>

wrote:

> do you have experience using the Gu principles in clinic? if yes can you

post some

>examples with formulae used

>

>

>only my observation of Heiner. My understanding is academic and I can't say

for sure if

>this concept has any clinical utility.

>

>Todd

 

---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

[Guest guest]

This is a very interesting discussion, and I think it mixes well with

the lingering pathogen discussion.

 

Roger--are there specific anti-paracitic herbs that you have found

most useful? Can you give a few examples?

 

I have a patient who is an alcoholic with drum distension in his

abdomen. He is a very wise and clear-minded man except when he gets

to talking about his paranoid delusions! I wonder if there are

specific types of anti-paracitic herbs that are especially useful

with alcohoics.

 

Laura

 

 

, rw2@r... wrote:

> I've had numerous cases over the years for which the most obvious

initial formulas did not work, and for which I eventually got results

using anti-Parasitic, clearing Damp Heat herbs, and anti-Toxin herbs

in combination with whatever else was happening - Blood Stasis is

certainly common in many of these complex illnesses. I've observed

among my own students that Blood Stasis is one of the most frequently

underestimated syndromes. Many of the standard reference texts list

as indications for Blood Stasis as purple tongue, and that grayish

tongue is more Qi-Stagnation, but in my own practice, I've learned to

modify this distinction to be more flexible and fuzzy. I see a lot of

cases that respond well to Blood invigorating herbs in combination

with tonics and heat clearing herbs, for which the indications of

Blood Stagnation are subtle, such as dusky-gray tongue tissue and

slightly choppy pulses. Choppy quality in the pulse is also a feature

that seems to be one of the more difficult qualities for students to

pick up. Distention and distortions of the sublingual veins are also

a useful indicator.

>

> As for the ability of surface-relieving herbs in large doses to use

as penetrators, I've only seen hints of this in the standard TCM

literature, so Todd's article was interesting to me. I have used

large doses of fresh ginger and cinnamon twigs in combination with

anti-parasitic herbs plus whatever else is indicated (Blood-

invigorators, tonics, etc.) as these herbs in combination seem to

speed up the results in Gu-type cases. And Todd's comments that

surface relieving herbs in large doses can penetrate deeper regions

of the body make sense to me. I've used large doses of both fresh

ginger and cinnamon in this manner (up to 5x the standard daily

dose) - for short periods of time, as in intermittent " blasts " , as

this can be somewhat irritating if used without frequent breaks. I've

also used large doses of Rx Ledebouriella (5x standard daily dose)

for heavy metal toxicity, including arsenic, and I wonder how many Gu-

type syndromes overlap with at least a component of heavy metal

toxicity - insomnia and other CNS symptoms, weakened Protective Qi,

digestive complaints are common to many types of heavy metal toxicity.

>

> However, in spite of how interesting the ancient TCM literature

on " Gu " may be from a historical perspective, why not take the bull

by the horns and recognize that what this implies is that

microbial/parasitic influences on chronic diseases may be more

significant that is usually admitted in current TCM thinking, and

take advantage of the modern medical literature on infectious

diseases? " Gu " is a very general term, which is not too helpful in

doing an assessment and deciding what herbs to use. There are

thousands of types of Gu, and that is where the microbiology and

clinical pathology help out, plus a knowledge of the specific anti-

microbial, anti-parasitic actions of herbs.

>

> ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

> contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

> Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

> Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

>

>

>

> > " "

> >Re: Gu Syndrome

> >

> > , " Alon Marcus "

<alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> > do you have experience using the Gu principles in clinic?

if yes can you post some

> >examples with formulae used

> >

> >

> >only my observation of Heiner. My understanding is academic and I

can't say for sure if

> >this concept has any clinical utility.

> >

> >Todd

>

> ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

> contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

> Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

> Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

[Guest guest]

>

> rw2 [rw2]

> Sunday, September 26, 2004 11:51 AM

>

> Re: Gu Syndrome

>

> I've had numerous cases over the years for which the most obvious initial

> formulas did not work, and for which I eventually got results using anti-

> Parasitic, clearing Damp Heat herbs, and anti-Toxin herbs in combination

> with whatever else was happening - Blood Stasis is certainly common in

> many of these complex illnesses. I've observed among my own students that

> Blood Stasis is one of the most frequently underestimated syndromes. Many

> of the standard reference texts list as indications for Blood Stasis as

> purple tongue, and that grayish tongue is more Qi-Stagnation, but in my

> own practice, I've learned to modify this distinction to be more flexible

> and fuzzy. I see a lot of cases that respond well to Blood invigorating

> herbs in combination with tonics and heat clearing herbs, for which the

> indications of Blood Stagnation are subtle, such as dusky-gray tongue

> tissue and slightly choppy pulses. Choppy quality in the pulse is also a

> feature that seems to be one of the more difficult qualities for students

> to pick up. Distention and distortions of the sublingual veins are also a

> useful indicator.

[Jason]

I agree and I think there is much confusion around the choppy pulse. I

think it was Al stone that a few months ago posted a long discussion on

this. Basically he was describing the 3 types of choppiness and how various

authors interpreted it (feeling). I definitely see all three types of

choppiness in the clinic and am still unclear what each of the choppiness

means ( I don't think Al's post went into this). Does anyone differentiate

the three, attributing a different meaning to i.e. a choppy (roughness) vs.

choppy (strength) etc.?

 

-

[Guest guest]

>

> rw2 [rw2]

I've also used large

> doses of Rx Ledebouriella (5x standard daily dose) for heavy metal

> toxicity, including arsenic, and I wonder how many Gu-type syndromes

> overlap with at least a component of heavy metal toxicity - insomnia and

> other CNS symptoms, weakened Protective Qi, digestive complaints are

> common to many types of heavy metal toxicity.

[Jason]

Maybe you have mentioned this before, but how are 'you' dx the H.M.

toxicity? Just curious...

 

-

>

[Guest guest]

To detect a choppy pulse, one must essentially store an image of the way each

pulse beat feels and then compare it with the next pulse beat. (Mathematically

this is called auto-correlation.) It means that each pulse beat will have a

slightly different pulse pressure profile in time. The trickiest aspect of this

is to detect choppiness in a pulse that is otherwise smooth in profile - a

slippery-choppy pulse is one example.

 

We use video simulation software to demonstrate this to our students, and it

helps greatly. A picture is worth a thousand words. See the sequence of 5 slides

starting at:

 

http://www.rmhiherbal.org/tchs-cd/pu-01.html

 

The sequence of slides shown above illustrates several different complex pulse

types.

(Keep in mind that these are snapshots of moving images.)

 

In a slippery-choppy pulse, the pulse pressure profile will not have the

classical quality of " knife scraping bamboo " , but the shape does change, and

this can include variations in strength, which is one manifestation of

choppiness.

 

---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

 

 

> Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:01:57 -0600

> " "

>RE: Re: Gu Syndrome

>

>I agree and I think there is much confusion around the choppy pulse. I

>think it was Al stone that a few months ago posted a long discussion on

>this. Basically he was describing the 3 types of choppiness and how various

>authors interpreted it (feeling). I definitely see all three types of

>choppiness in the clinic and am still unclear what each of the choppiness

>means ( I don't think Al's post went into this). Does anyone differentiate

>the three, attributing a different meaning to i.e. a choppy (roughness) vs.

>choppy (strength) etc.?

>

>-

 

 

---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org