Guest guest Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 In a message dated 9/25/04 7:24:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: > [Jason] > The intent was purely to present that there are other more common reasons > that people can't tolerate tonic herbs, b/c at least in my mind the LP > scenario is really pretty far down the list. OK - this makes more sense to me and I would agree. Depending on the constellation of signs and symptoms, LP can achieve a higher rank on the list; the pulse patterns I provided are part of that. ...you stated that: > " ... I have to suspect lurking pathogens if they were not... " This to me > suggests that you think of it quite quickly (i.e. have to)... So my > questions are: > 1) have you heard this idea discussed in Chinese somewhere This is complicated all my Chinese teachers from 20 years ago insisted that patients could not be allergic to the herbs, rather it was a wrong prescription. That has changed and the Chinese faculty at Emperor's consider allergy as a potential complication of herbal therapy. This idea comes from my clinical experience. Yang Tiande said to me as have all the great teachers in my life " The patient teaches you. " My concepts of latent pathology were rooted in my clinical successes and failures. This lead me to the books to answer the question. For certain patients who got worse with supplementation, I would retreat into formulas that relieved latent pathogens and they would improve. By certain, I mean those who upon closer examination had sings and symptoms consistent with latent pathogens. > 2) How does it help your treatment.. meaning what do you do once you believe > that a lurking pathogen is not letting them take the tonic herbs It varies depending on the location of the latency, constitution, region, season and other patterns that are occurring. I may still use supplementation such as in xiao chai hu tang. Patent options from the late Ye Tian Ni: Xiao Chai Hu Tang Summer Heat: add Huo Xiang Zheng Qi Pian (Agastache Formula) Blood Xu: add Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang (Ginseng and Astragalus) and add Dang Gui (Rx Angelica sinensis) Qi and Yang Xu: add Ren Shen Lu Rong Wan (Ginseng and Cornu Cervi pill) Deficiency: add Huang Qi (Rx Astragalus) Venting: Sheng Ma (Cimicifuga), Ge Gen (Rx Pueraria) Liu Bao-yi " Lead Surface-Dispersing Medicinals to the Kidneys to disperse deep-lying Latent Qi " Herba Menthae (Bo He) Radix Rehmanniae glutinosae (Sheng Di) Semen Soja Preparatum (Dou Chi) Zhang's Shao Yang Stage: Resolve Latent Heat Huang Qin Tang Rx Scutellaria baical (Huang Qin) Radix Peonia alba (Bai Shao) Radix Glycyrrhizae uralensis (Gan Cao) Fructus Zizyphi jujube (Da Zao). Zhi Zi Dou Chi San 10 Zhi Zi (Fr. Gardenia jasminoides) 12 Dan Dou Chi (Sm. Sojae praeperatum) One of the most robust formulas as far as general application for latent heat and resultant complications is Chai Hu Qing Gan Tang. Tian Hua Fen Huang Bai Jie Geng Dang Gui Shu Di Chuan Xiong Huang Qin Lian Qiao Gan Cao Bo He Chai Hu Bai Shao Huang Lian Zhi Zi Niu Bang Zi > 3) I am still unclear how you determine if this is indeed the case... > Finally I didn't see an answer in your previous post on how a lurking > pathogen manifests that is lurking in the qi level. What does this really > mean (manifestation) is it purely on the pulse Bear in mind - the following is influenced by European concepts as well as China - this has been the way of developing medicine since at least the Han Dynasty in various cycles. Latent Heat - History Recurrent colds and flus Chronic fatigue Chronic viral infections Chronic fibromyalgia Patient gets worse with tonic therapy Infection arises with fatigue or treatment Latent Heat and the Tongue Faded red prickles Classic scarlet Yin Xu Swollen on one side more than the other Coated on one side more than the other ‘Normal appearance’ Focal Infections Dental Chronic appendicitis Chronic tonsilitis Intestines Vaginal Prostatic In my experience, for the qi stage, it is the Xiao Chai Hu Tang patterns that are most common Let me know if I missed anything in your questions. I know I went afield a little. Don't take it personally if I am late responding, I am going into a deadline crunch for some course preparations. Best - Will Will Morris, LAc., OMD, MSEd Secretary AAOM 310-453-8300 phone 310-829-3838 fax This message is a PRIVATE communication. This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not read, copy, or use it, and do not disclose it to others. Please notify the sender of the delivery error by replying to this message with the word delete in the subject column, and then delete it and any attachments from your system. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.