Guest guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 Is there any dispute in the TCM literature that liver yang rising always involve yin/blood vacuity and thus cannot be solely caused by liver depression unless the depression has transformed to heat and damaged the yin? That pure liver excess s/s identify patterns of depression heat or fire rising, not ascendant yang. Thus tian ma gou teng yin is not appropriate for patterns rooted in liver qi depression with no vacuity of yin or blood. Chinese Herbs (619) 668-6964 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 , wrote: > Is there any dispute in the TCM literature that liver yang rising > always involve yin/blood vacuity and thus cannot be solely caused by > liver depression unless the depression has transformed to heat and > damaged the yin? Yes, I think there is. In issue #7, 2004 of Jiang Su Zhong Yi Yao (Jiangsu & Medicinals) in an article on the Chinese medical patterns of hypertension and and modern Western analyses appearing on pages 56-58 of that issue, Hu Rong lists the following patterns of hypertension: 1. Ascendant liver yang hyperactivity 2. Liver fire hyperactivity & exuberance 3. Yin vacuity/yang hyperactivity 4. Yin & yang dual vacuity 5. Plus the complications of blood stasis and phlegm dampness This would suggest that Hu in any case believes there is a pattern of ascendant liver yang hyperacrivity without accompanying yin vacuity. I say this because he/she lists yang hyperactivity with yin vacuity as a separate pattern. Unfortunately, he/she does not give the symptoms of this pattern. Instead, he/she describes all the Western biological markers associated with this pattern. Since this is an article on the relationship of CM patterns to Western biological markers, there is no discussion of the CM treatment of these patterns. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001> wrote: > Yes, I think there is. In issue #7, 2004 of Jiang Su Zhong Yi Yao > (Jiangsu & Medicinals) in an article on the Chinese > medical patterns of hypertension and and modern Western analyses > appearing on pages 56-58 of that issue, Hu Rong lists the following > patterns of hypertension: > > 1. Ascendant liver yang hyperactivity > 2. Liver fire hyperactivity & exuberance > 3. Yin vacuity/yang hyperactivity Bob What are the formulas for each pattern? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 As I said in my post, there were no formulas given. That was not what the article was about. :-) Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 At 2:49 PM +0000 9/30/04, Bob Flaws wrote: >As I said in my post, there were no formulas given. That was not what >the article was about. :-) -- However, there seems to be agreement between several texts that: Ascendant liver yang hyperactivity: tian ma gou teng yin Liver fire hyperactivity & exuberance: long dan xie gan tang Yin vacuity/yang hyperactivity: qi ju di huang wan In my experience it's useful to think of a wider range of patterns and formulas to treat people with hypertension than is generally given in our Chinese source textbooks and articles. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 people with hypertension than is generally given in our Chinese source textbooks and articles >>>Rory, long time no hear. What are the most common you conceder alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 At 3:08 PM -0500 9/30/04, Alon Marcus wrote: >What are the most common you conceder -- Alon, My approach (not unique I'm sure) generally is to set aside the fact of hypertension until I've decided the disease and pattern diagnosis in CM, then choose formulas that I would use on that basis, and only then look at adjustments for hypertension based on research. Often there are multiple patterns in patients with well established hypertension, and the situation is complicated as well as helped by medications. Of the formulas usually recommended for HTN, I almost never end up with long dan xie gan tang, occasionally with tian ma gou teng yin, more often with tian wang bu xin dan, shen qi wan and its derivatives, chai hu jia long gu mu li tang, xue fu zhu yu tang, ban xia bai zhu tian ma tang. Back in the mid-1980s I developed a list based on the Japanese material on the subject published in the OHAI Journal. The Japanese have a lot of experience with hypertension, so even though they don't quite speak TCM, I figured that it was probably useful information. The most common formulas used by well known practitioners in Japan seemed to be da chai hu tang, chai hu jia long gu mu li tang, and huang lian jie du tang. These hardly get mentioned in Chinese sources I've seen. Now we have F & S which lists 15 formulae, and several texts with chapters on hypertension. Of those I've looked at the best seems to be Flaws & Sionneau's Treatment of Modern Western Diseases which recommends about 12 formula for different patterns with adaptations. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 Rory i noticed your list closely resembling Japanese literature. Have you treated many cases? if yes what severity and what types of results have you been getting alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2004 Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 At 12:26 AM -0500 10/1/04, Alon Marcus wrote: >Have you treated many cases? if yes what severity and what types of >results have you been getting -- Not many cases of treating HTN on its own, and its not a focus of my practice. Usually its treating the patient for some other problem, and while doing that they are happy to include the HTN. As to success, it seems highly variable. The cases that seem most successful are those that come in at an early stage before they are medicated. Long term medicated cases are hard to budge significantly, IMO. With the latter I think small gains are the best you can expect. I haven't followed recent Japanese studies to see what their success rates are. Have you? Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2004 Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 > In my experience it's useful to think of a wider range of patterns > and formulas to treat people with hypertension than is generally > given in our Chinese source textbooks and articles. > > Rory Absolutely! The Chinese have made a fundamental conceptual mistake vis a vis the pattern discrimination and treatment of EH. They start by equating EH with headache and dizziness, and then they posit the patterns and formulas for headache and dizziness. However, most EH sufferers are asymptomatic and do not have headache and dizziness. Therefore, the patterns for those symptoms are irrelevant. This highlights one of the downsides of a culture which values consensus and tradition too highly. This error has become the party line. It's not that it's totally wrong. It just isn't totally right. No wonder CM isn't particularly good fro treating EH; it's typically not treating the patients presenting patterns. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2004 Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 With the latter I think small gains are the best you can expect. I haven't followed recent Japanese studies to see what their success rates are. Have you? >>>>>No i have not, and i find the same thing although more having to do with severity than if they are or were medicated. I just dont think TCM is very effective for essential HBP. I have seen hundreds of cases in China. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2004 Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 At 10:24 AM -0700 10/1/04, alon marcus wrote: >I have seen hundreds of cases in China. -- Did the doctors you observed follow standard patterns/formulas, or were they more flexible? Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2004 Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 At 3:13 PM +0000 10/1/04, Bob Flaws wrote: >No wonder CM >isn't particularly good fro treating EH; it's typically not treating >the patients presenting patterns. -- My impression is that herbs deal more effectively with well established vacuity patterns, and with phlegm and blood stasis, whereas acupuncture can have immediate effects on the autonomic nervous system which regulates blood pressure. As in the case that reported, I've seen blood pressure reduce dramatically with acupuncture in cases where the blood pressure rise was recent and stress related, even if there is a genetic tendency in such cases. In China most cases do not receive acupuncture treatment, so basing what we do here upon Chinese or Japanese herbal studies or theoretical ideas may not be giving us the information we need to get to an effective combined therapy. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2004 Report Share Posted October 2, 2004 --- Rory Kerr <rorykerr wrote: At 2:49 PM +0000 9/30/04, Bob Flaws wrote: >As I said in my post, there were no formulas given. That was not what >the article was about. :-) -- However, there seems to be agreement between several texts that: Ascendant liver yang hyperactivity: tian ma gou teng yin Liver fire hyperactivity & exuberance: long dan xie gan tang Yin vacuity/yang hyperactivity: qi ju di huang wan wiseman says that Ascendant liver yang hyperactivity, by definition is a pattern of Yin vacuity/yang hyperactivity. Where does he get this? I assume it is the standard definition given in most medical dictionaries. IMO, qi ju di huang wan has little or no short term effect on yang hyperactviity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Good news an NIH study Traditional Chinese Acupuncture May Be Effective for Osteoarthritis of Knee An NIH-funded trial found that the alternative therapy reduced pain and improved function. Medscape Medical News 2004 http://mp.medscape.com/cgi-bin1/DM/y/ejw10EDHzl0DzC0GGAg0Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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