excessive iron in the blood--dusky tongue

[Guest guest]

Hi Steven

 

No, she wasn't formally diagnosed with Hemochromatosis but had a

high iron count in a blood test. She is somewhat of a compulsive

supplement taker and was taking iron at the time. They told her to

stop. This was about a year ago before I began seeing her. I'll

recommend she have another blood test to see that the levels came

down. I have also encouraged her to limit her supplements to a few

that seem to address her symptoms so we can take off from there:

quercitin, lemon water in morning and Hawthorn for indigestion

experienced in the chest/epigastrium with difficulty belching but

relief afterward.

 

Also, how about the dusky, thinly coated tongue? I have heard two

different interpretations--yin xu or blood stasis. Any more ideas on

this color? I have two patients with this color and both are also

quite swollen in the tongue. One is overweight (above), one is quite

thin. Both have skin problems and sinus allergies: acne in the

overweight small red papules in center of face and jaw line, the

other rosacea in center of face including inner canthus with purple

pusy papules. Help is greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks, Shanna

 

 

 

, Steven Slater

<laozhongyi@m...> wrote:

> Hi Shanna,

>

> By " high iron in the blood " do you mean she has been diagnosed

with

> haemochromatosis as well? If so, is she seeking treatment

specifically

> for this condition? Heamochromatosis is a progressive and

potentially

> deadly disorder involving iron deposits in the tissues/organs

resulting

> in serious damage to from a WM perspective. I recall researching

TCM

> treatment for haemochromatosis in the past and there are resources

on

> the net if this is the actual problem. From memory, most

treatments

> revolved around addressing a Liver/Spleen disharmony and any

resultant

> complications.

>

> Best Wishes,

> Steve

>

>

> On 01/10/2004, at 4:51 AM, shannahickle wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Hi All

> >

> > I have a patient, 49, who reports she's been told she has high

iron

> > in the blood. She suffers from indigestion with chest oppression,

> > obesity, swollen sinuses. Her tongue is swollen, purple pale,

with a

> > med dirty greasy coat and small horizontal cracks in the center.

She

> > wet the bed until she was 14 for which she was serially beaten.

No

> > particular urinary symptoms now. Her pulse is thin and deep on

the

> > left and slippery and empty on the right. I've diagnosed damp

heat

> > in spleen/St yin xu and blood stasis. Does anyone have any info

on

> > correlations of high iron in the blood in dx?

Seems

> > like acidic foods like lemon water help her indigestion a little.

> > She has trouble digesting calcium supplements. She can take

Gaviscon

> > but not Tums. She's sensitive to smells and takes a lot of

> > antihistimines for nasal blockage. She also gets small red acne

> > papules along the center of her face from chin to eyebrows.

She's a

> > red head with lots of freckles but also a lot of age spots and

> > cholasma on her chin and edges of face.

> > Any insights would be greatly appreciated.

> >

> > Regards, Shanna

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Shanna,

 

Dusky = slightly dark? I must confess I have not heard the term " dusky "

in term of tongue diagnosis but I assume it refers to a dark quality.

 

A a slightly dark tongue with thin (white) coating are the textbook

tongue signs of Liver depression qi stagnation. It is my understanding

that Yin xu usually creates a crimson red tongue while blood stasis

gives a more purple shade (with possible stasis " spots " ). Purple

tongues are generally related to " stasis " of some kind, but this may be

due to Yang vacuity resulting in blood stasis (ie. root is deficient).

 

A pale, dark and swollen tongue with thin white fur are the textbook

sign of liver depression with spleen vacuity.

 

Others signs you have mentioned such as indigestion and chest

oppression also support the presence of a Liver/Spleen disharmony, the

red papules suggest some heat, purple pussy papules suggest

phelgm/blood stasis; obesity, pussy papules and dirty greasy tongue

coating suggests dampness/phlegm.

 

I personally don't see many signs of stomach yin xu, the cracks in the

tongue probably indicate chronic spleen vacuity in this case.

 

I would personally lean more towards a pattern of liver/spleen

disharmony as the root pattern with complications of transformative

heat, damp/phlegm and possibly some degree of blood stasis.

 

I hope some of this helps.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Steve

 

 

On 06/10/2004, at 11:39 PM, shannahickle wrote:

 

>

>

>

> Hi Steven

>

> No, she wasn't formally diagnosed with Hemochromatosis but had a

> high iron count in a blood test. She is somewhat of a compulsive

> supplement taker and was taking iron at the time. They told her to

> stop. This was about a year ago before I began seeing her. I'll

> recommend she have another blood test to see that the levels came

> down. I have also encouraged her to limit her supplements to a few

> that seem to address her symptoms so we can take off from there:

> quercitin, lemon water in morning and Hawthorn for indigestion

> experienced in the chest/epigastrium with difficulty belching but

> relief afterward.

>

> Also, how about the dusky, thinly coated tongue? I have heard two

> different interpretations--yin xu or blood stasis. Any more ideas on

> this color? I have two patients with this color and both are also

> quite swollen in the tongue. One is overweight (above), one is quite

> thin. Both have skin problems and sinus allergies: acne in the

> overweight small red papules in center of face and jaw line, the

> other rosacea in center of face including inner canthus with purple

> pusy papules. Help is greatly appreciated.

>

> Thanks, Shanna

>

>

>

> , Steven Slater

> <laozhongyi@m...> wrote:

>> Hi Shanna,

>>

>> By " high iron in the blood " do you mean she has been diagnosed

> with

>> haemochromatosis as well? If so, is she seeking treatment

> specifically

>> for this condition? Heamochromatosis is a progressive and

> potentially

>> deadly disorder involving iron deposits in the tissues/organs

> resulting

>> in serious damage to from a WM perspective. I recall researching

> TCM

>> treatment for haemochromatosis in the past and there are resources

> on

>> the net if this is the actual problem. From memory, most

> treatments

>> revolved around addressing a Liver/Spleen disharmony and any

> resultant

>> complications.

>>

>> Best Wishes,

>> Steve

>>

>>

>> On 01/10/2004, at 4:51 AM, shannahickle wrote:

>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Hi All

>>>

>>> I have a patient, 49, who reports she's been told she has high

> iron

>>> in the blood. She suffers from indigestion with chest oppression,

>>> obesity, swollen sinuses. Her tongue is swollen, purple pale,

> with a

>>> med dirty greasy coat and small horizontal cracks in the center.

> She

>>> wet the bed until she was 14 for which she was serially beaten.

> No

>>> particular urinary symptoms now. Her pulse is thin and deep on

> the

>>> left and slippery and empty on the right. I've diagnosed damp

> heat

>>> in spleen/St yin xu and blood stasis. Does anyone have any info

> on

>>> correlations of high iron in the blood in dx?

> Seems

>>> like acidic foods like lemon water help her indigestion a little.

>>> She has trouble digesting calcium supplements. She can take

> Gaviscon

>>> but not Tums. She's sensitive to smells and takes a lot of

>>> antihistimines for nasal blockage. She also gets small red acne

>>> papules along the center of her face from chin to eyebrows.

> She's a

>>> red head with lots of freckles but also a lot of age spots and

>>> cholasma on her chin and edges of face.

>>> Any insights would be greatly appreciated.

>>>

>>> Regards, Shanna

>>>

[Guest guest]

Dusky translates as pale purple.

doug

 

, Steven Slater <laozhongyi@m...>

wrote:

> Hi Shanna,

>

> Dusky = slightly dark? I must confess I have not heard the term " dusky "

> in term of tongue diagnosis but I assume it refers to a dark quality.

> > > coating suggests dampness/phlegm.

> > Steve

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have heard there is dusky pale and dusky purple...

 

-JB

 

 

>

> []

> Wednesday, October 06, 2004 11:17 PM

>

> Re: excessive iron in the blood--dusky tongue

>

>

>

> Dusky translates as pale purple.

> doug

>

> , Steven Slater <laozhongyi@m...>

> wrote:

> > Hi Shanna,

> >

> > Dusky = slightly dark? I must confess I have not heard the term " dusky "

> > in term of tongue diagnosis but I assume it refers to a dark quality.

> > > > coating suggests dampness/phlegm.

> > > Steve

> >

[Guest guest]

Shanna,

 

Excessive iron in the blood is well-known to correlate with increased

susceptibilty to infection and to increased blood viscosity and clumping of red

blood cells, the latter which corresponds to Blood Stagnation. The issue of

grayish tongue color, or " dusky " , came up previously on this group. I've long

ago adjusted my own standard criteria for Blood Stagnation to include the

possibility of a grayish tongue, even though many texts only mention purplish.

(Also, distortion of the the sublingual veins is also a very useful indicator of

Blood Stagnation.) I've found that people with grayish tongues (gray

superimposed on whatever other hue), especially if chronic, usually benefit by

Blood-invigorating herbs. Hemochromatosis and/or high blood iron conditions

often involve some sort of Liver/Spleen disharmony, so you would need to

determine the exact nature of these patterns. A lot of foods and ingested

substances contain lots of iron, and these days I find it is more common for

peoeple in general to get too much rather than too little. Red meat, iron in

drinking water, many vitamin supplements, dark-colored dried fruits, are common

sources of excessive iron.

 

Note that low iron is only one possible cause of anemia, and many people with

anemia do not benefit by additional iron - in fact it can make it worse. If

anemia is due to a chronic infection of some type, the excessive iron will often

increase the degree of infection.

 

---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

 

 

 

> " shannahickle " <shannahickle

>Re: excessive iron in the blood--dusky tongue

>

>Hi Steven

>

>No, she wasn't formally diagnosed with Hemochromatosis but had a

>high iron count in a blood test. She is somewhat of a compulsive

>supplement taker and was taking iron at the time. They told her to

>stop. This was about a year ago before I began seeing her. I'll

>recommend she have another blood test to see that the levels came

>down. I have also encouraged her to limit her supplements to a few

>that seem to address her symptoms so we can take off from there:

>quercitin, lemon water in morning and Hawthorn for indigestion

>experienced in the chest/epigastrium with difficulty belching but

>relief afterward.

>

>Also, how about the dusky, thinly coated tongue? I have heard two

>different interpretations--yin xu or blood stasis. Any more ideas on

>this color? I have two patients with this color and both are also

>quite swollen in the tongue. One is overweight (above), one is quite

>thin. Both have skin problems and sinus allergies: acne in the

>overweight small red papules in center of face and jaw line, the

>other rosacea in center of face including inner canthus with purple

>pusy papules. Help is greatly appreciated.

>

>Thanks, Shanna

 

---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org