Guest guest Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Here is a copy of an email from Nigel Wiseman discussing the dusky tongue and the confusion it generates: Begin: OK. But I don't think it appears in the literature. I am glad Cha is discussing it. As I said, you have to be very careful when using dialects, especially when you are unfamiliar with anyone else's dialect. According to Websters (do the discussants have dictionaries? You might ask them that), dusky means somewhat dark in color. After all, dusk is the time when the sky is starting to get somewhat dark. I agree with Websters dictionary. To me dusky is a matter of lightness and darkness, not one of color. Purple is the only translation for me. Of course, we don't mean a classic purple. It just means relatively purple. We keep hearing the point of view that different translations of terms help people to get different highlights on the concepts. Unfortunately that does not help people to link dusky in one book with purple in another book. That point of view says we should use Pinyin as the standard terms. But has anyone ever written an English book in which they say " the tongue is zi in color " (or she zi). No, of course not, because purple is a color; it is not considered by ordinary people as a term. Different equivalents for one Chinese term only confuse. The confusion could be reduced by a writer linking all his/her terms to the Chinese. In reality, no-one in the Western world except Wiseman does that. The argument is completely fallacious. It says only one thing to me: we don't want to be forced to use Wiseman terms. Purple is an LSP (language for special purposes) term, i.e., an everyday word that is used in Chinese medicine as a technical term (just as nose or heart are LGP [language for general purposes] terms that are used as technical terms in Chinese medical parlance). Purple is a technical term in Chinese medicine because it consistently signifies blood stasis wherever it appears. Take another color word: huang2, yellow. Many things described as huang in Chinese might be described with other color words in English, notably brown (the Chinese talk about yellow shoes and yellow dogs, where in English we talk about tan shoes and brown dogs). But the ancient Chinese had five basic colors linked to the five phases. So huang is an LGP term that is used in Chinese medicine with LSP, i.e., technical connotations. It has to be translated as yellow, and we have to readjust the definition of yellow to make it fit huang. We cannot borrow the word huang because if we did that we would have to borrow 500 other Chinese words for similar reasons, and people would get lost, especially if they did not learn the tones. The idea of using Pinyin as a basis is theoretically possible. In practice it is not feasible. It is advocated only by people who think that Chinese only has a handful of technical terms (shen, jing, etc). People discuss merrily away, but they don't read. I discussed this whole problem in my PhD thesis, which is freely available. Language borrow mostly nouns. They much more rarely borrow adjectives. English has borrowed all kinds of color words from French (e.g., beige, maroon), but none from Russian, Turkish, Chinese, or Swahili, even though we have borrowed nouns from all those languages. This follows a clear linguistic pattern. We cannot adopt zi. And " describe the color you see in your own language " --type solutions don't work, because people who use " dusky " cannot communicate with people who use " purple. " The question of " discussing " versus " gaining well-informed opinions from academic studies " is the blight of Chinese medicine in the West. Western TCM people mostly live outside academia, and they never think for one second that someone has thought about the problem they are discussing and developed an substantiated theory about it. You might put this on the list service. Nigel , " " wrote: > > Dusky translates as pale purple. > doug > > , Steven Slater <laozhongyi@m...> wrote: > > Hi Shanna, > > > > Dusky = slightly dark? I must confess I have not heard the term " dusky " > > in term of tongue diagnosis but I assume it refers to a dark quality. > > > > coating suggests dampness/phlegm. > > > Steve > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 At 5:53 PM +0000 10/7/04, smilinglotus wrote: >Purple is the only translation for me. Of course, we don't mean a >classic purple. It just means relatively purple. -- Forgive the slight tangent, but I hope everyone is aware that when a tongue is viewed under fluorescent light, it is given a purplish cast. IMO, one must not identify a tongue as purple (or dusky) until it has been viewed under daylight or full spectrum artificial light. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 I guess I should have said every Chinese doctor has translated the pale purple tongue we looked at as dusky. I did this test early in my career and concensus was universal. It may or may not be like yellow/huang where the range is much broader where huang can be every thing from off white to canary as Nigel implies here. In my charts I put dusky/purple and dusky/pale and then plain purple. If we start with " pale purple = dusky " then the shades become quickly understood in the clinic, IMHO. I agree it that if you just looked in the dictionary it is a problem because Websters gives that definition but I've never seen a tongue I would describe as darkish pink. Tongues range (with a few exceptions) from pale to purple with offshoots of red and crimson red. I see it as a round color chart with pink (pale red in Wiseman) in the middle with tendencies and shades as we go off to the edges. While probably 25% of all patients I see have dusky tongues I'm not sure I can find what word I need in the Wiseman dictionary. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place. Is there help for me? doug , " smilinglotus " <smilinglotus> wrote: > > Here is a copy of an email from Nigel Wiseman discussing the dusky > tongue and the confusion it generates: > > Begin: > OK. But I don't think it appears in the literature. I am glad Cha > is discussing it. As I said, you have to be very careful when using > dialects, especially when you are unfamiliar with anyone else's > dialect. > > According to Websters (do the discussants have dictionaries? You > might ask them that), dusky means somewhat dark in color. After > all, dusk is the time when the sky is starting to get somewhat > dark. I agree with Websters dictionary. To me dusky is a matter of > lightness and darkness, not one of color. > > Purple is the only translation for me. Of course, we don't mean a > classic purple. It just means relatively purple. > > We keep hearing the point of view that different translations of > terms help people to get different highlights on the concepts. > Unfortunately that does not help people to link dusky in one book > with purple in another book. That point of view says we should use > Pinyin as the standard terms. But has anyone ever written an > English book in which they say " the tongue is zi in color " (or she > zi). No, of course not, because purple is a color; it is not > considered by ordinary people as a term. Different equivalents for > one Chinese term only confuse. The confusion could be reduced by a > writer linking all his/her terms to the Chinese. In reality, no-one > in the Western world except Wiseman does that. The argument is > completely fallacious. It says only one thing to me: we don't want > to be forced to use Wiseman terms. > > Purple is an LSP (language for special purposes) term, i.e., an > everyday word that is used in Chinese medicine as a technical term > (just as nose or heart are LGP [language for general purposes] terms > that are used as technical terms in Chinese medical parlance). > Purple is a technical term in Chinese medicine because it > consistently signifies blood stasis wherever it appears. > > Take another color word: huang2, yellow. Many things described as > huang in Chinese might be described with other color words in > English, notably brown (the Chinese talk about yellow shoes and > yellow dogs, where in English we talk about tan shoes and brown > dogs). But the ancient Chinese had five basic colors linked to the > five phases. So huang is an LGP term that is used in Chinese > medicine with LSP, i.e., technical connotations. It has to be > translated as yellow, and we have to readjust the definition of > yellow to make it fit huang. We cannot borrow the word huang > because if we did that we would have to borrow 500 other Chinese > words for similar reasons, and people would get lost, especially if > they did not learn the tones. > > The idea of using Pinyin as a basis is theoretically possible. In > practice it is not feasible. It is advocated only by people who > think that Chinese only has a handful of technical terms (shen, > jing, etc). > > People discuss merrily away, but they don't read. I discussed this > whole problem in my PhD thesis, which is freely available. Language > borrow mostly nouns. They much more rarely borrow adjectives. > English has borrowed all kinds of color words from French (e.g., > beige, maroon), but none from Russian, Turkish, Chinese, or Swahili, > even though we have borrowed nouns from all those languages. This > follows a clear linguistic pattern. We cannot adopt zi. > And " describe the color you see in your own language " --type > solutions don't work, because people who use " dusky " cannot > communicate with people who use " purple. " > > The question of " discussing " versus " gaining well-informed opinions > from academic studies " is the blight of Chinese medicine in the > West. Western TCM people mostly live outside academia, and they > never think for one second that someone has thought about the > problem they are discussing and developed an substantiated theory > about it. > > You might put this on the list service. > > Nigel > > > > , " " > wrote: > > > > Dusky translates as pale purple. > > doug > > > > , Steven Slater > <laozhongyi@m...> wrote: > > > Hi Shanna, > > > > > > Dusky = slightly dark? I must confess I have not heard the > term " dusky " > > > in term of tongue diagnosis but I assume it refers to a dark > quality. > > > > > coating suggests dampness/phlegm. > > > > Steve > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 On Oct 7, 2004, at 12:26 PM, Rory Kerr wrote: > Forgive the slight tangent, but I hope everyone is aware that when a > tongue is viewed under fluorescent light, it is given a purplish > cast. IMO, one must not identify a tongue as purple (or dusky) until > it has been viewed under daylight or full spectrum artificial light. In the same vein... I was treating a LOT of blood stagnation my first year until I happened to check out my own tongue and found it had turned purple. That's when I realized that my office's purple walls were either coloring everybody's tongues purple or a newly discovered etiology for blood stagnation. -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. -Adlai Stevenson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Rory, I am very familiar with the recommendation of using full-spectrum light for tongue examination if natural sunlight is impractical (which is usually the case) but have little knowledge on what type of globes are best for this purpose. Do Halogen globes produce full-spectrum artificial light? What are the best types of globes that produce full-spectrum light in your experience? Best Wishes, Steve PS- thanks for making me smile so early in the morning Al:-D On 08/10/2004, at 7:28 AM, Al Stone wrote: > > > On Oct 7, 2004, at 12:26 PM, Rory Kerr wrote: > >> Forgive the slight tangent, but I hope everyone is aware that when a >> tongue is viewed under fluorescent light, it is given a purplish >> cast. IMO, one must not identify a tongue as purple (or dusky) until >> it has been viewed under daylight or full spectrum artificial light. > > In the same vein... > > I was treating a LOT of blood stagnation my first year until I happened > to check out my own tongue and found it had turned purple. That's when > I realized that my office's purple walls were either coloring > everybody's tongues purple or a newly discovered etiology for blood > stagnation. > > -- > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > -Adlai Stevenson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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