Guest guest Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 Yes, but these numbers are for MD wannabes who use modern herbals, drugs, surgery, childbirth, and such for western indications. While some of these numbers are transferable to OM, much is not necessary for an OM program. The ACAOM Doctoral Task Force will hopefully be working on viable programs for OM first professional degrees that will keep us (OM) as a useful tool within healthcare in the US, as independent practitioners. I see no reason to focus on limitations rather than the future of medicine, nor do I see ancient Chinese Medicine as falling off a cliff as it seems to be in China, if we update our practice to be inclusive of today's knowledge a well as ancient knowledge. By the way, there are other states besides California, and while the recent commission report is interesting, it is not necessarily viable in other states. Few, if any, states look to California as a model of most anything governmental, although it is a good model to learn what not to do in many cases, from my reading in the state focused nonpartisan (albeit slightly left leaning) journal " Governing " , put out in close connection with the National Conference of State Legislatures. Just as the world of Oriental Medicine does not revolve around Beijing, it also does not revolve around California. It will move ahead regardless, or whither. These are my personal opinions, and have no bearing on my representation politically other than my own views when discussions of my representation and its separate views are developed. I am capable of having personal views that are different from the views I may represent in another forum, which shows the ability to work with people of differing views, and in my mind, a maturity that I have gained, sometimes painfully, over the past couple decades. DAvid Molony In a message dated 10/17/04 12:52:25 PM, writes: > > > anatomy 125 > cadaver lab 40 > physiology 125 > biochem 125 > pathology 125 > clinical and physical exam 250 > orthopedic exam 150 > x-ray 125 > lab dx 125 > > these are how many hours are devoted to the fundamentals of western dx > in ND school in the first two years (other subjects are homeopathy, > herbs, nutrition, etc.) > > the second two years coordinate with clinic the specific diagnosis of > complaints by body system (derm, gyn, cardio, etc.) > > While the first 1000 hour covers the fundamentals of dx, it is really > the 500 hours of specialty classes plus 1000 hours of clinic in which > one really learns western dx. Assuming there is some overlap in a few > science classes (which would probably not transfer into the > certificate program anyway), you would need more like 2000 hours of > clinic and class to get your WM certificate. Testing out would not be > an option as clinical competency must be determined over time. And we > cannot expect an easy way out. that would just be another example of > corruption to the state regulators. I just don't see how we can make > a case to keep this supposed " right " w/o a very extensive (and no > dount expensive) add-on certificate from a med school. > > This will also affect CEU providers as certain courses will be > prohibited as outside scope. Others will be prohibited as not serving > the public, but only the profession. Practice management CEU is > likely to be banned, for example. > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free > discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 anatomy 125 cadaver lab 40 physiology 125 biochem 125 pathology 125 clinical and physical exam 250 orthopedic exam 150 x-ray 125 lab dx 125 these are how many hours are devoted to the fundamentals of western dx in ND school in the first two years (other subjects are homeopathy, herbs, nutrition, etc.) the second two years coordinate with clinic the specific diagnosis of complaints by body system (derm, gyn, cardio, etc.) While the first 1000 hour covers the fundamentals of dx, it is really the 500 hours of specialty classes plus 1000 hours of clinic in which one really learns western dx. Assuming there is some overlap in a few science classes (which would probably not transfer into the certificate program anyway), you would need more like 2000 hours of clinic and class to get your WM certificate. Testing out would not be an option as clinical competency must be determined over time. And we cannot expect an easy way out. that would just be another example of corruption to the state regulators. I just don't see how we can make a case to keep this supposed " right " w/o a very extensive (and no dount expensive) add-on certificate from a med school. This will also affect CEU providers as certain courses will be prohibited as outside scope. Others will be prohibited as not serving the public, but only the profession. Practice management CEU is likely to be banned, for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 , acuman1@a... wrote: > Yes, but these numbers are for MD wannabes who use modern herbals, drugs, > surgery, childbirth, and such for western indications. While some of these > numbers are transferable to OM, much is not necessary for an OM program. Dave These numbers are similar to the number of hours of training in these areas for all other fields that allow western medical dx, such as PA, LNP, MD, DO, ND, DC. While you are correct that LHC only refers to CA, that is where half the Lac are and this document could have ramifications for insurers in all 50 states. Actually, CA laws about the environment, workers rights, taxes and healthcare have spread to many other states. You may think they are bad policy and I may agree, but that does not change the matter that CA often DOES lead the way in these matters. It may not affect the heartland or backwoods much, but most major metros follow suit to some degree over time. I certainly see no way that the goal of entry level primary care doc could be met w/o at least 1000 hours of focused WM education and all supervisors in clinic trained to guide students in all those areas. Since the current masters is 3000 in CA and the current DAOM another 1200 and since the required material cannot be covered in the masters, about 500 hours of the DAOM would have to be hardcore WM in order to get even to this level of making a basic western dx (which I still don't think would cut it, having had the more extensive training myself). So where would the advanced OM be? BTW, calling NDs MD wannabes is the most outrageous example of the pot calling the kettle black I have ever seen on this list. The entire battle in CA to get an OMD title was exactly that. A bunch of doctor wannabes. NDs get as much training in western dx as western med students so they could have parity with MDs. There is no difference at all in your goal. Naturopaths can and do practice legally in all 50 states as unlicensed healers. The CA naturopathic law actually protects the unlicensed healers from prosecution as long as they use only certain titles. In order to mainstream naturopathy and get insurance reimbursement, schools starting developing western med curriculums in the 80's. With access to lab tests, they began to develop new ideas based upon science and draw from herbal med in europe, which is largely scientific. But they got the training first. Once they had established themselves as physicians, they had every right to branch out into scientifc medicine. They had done the foundational work. Our profession wants to branch out of OM without doing the foundational work. In addition, modern naturopathy developed in the context of modern science and the use of herbs and other supplements in this context has been part of naturopathy to some degree for 100 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 , acuman1@a... wrote: The ACAOM > Doctoral Task Force will hopefully be working on viable programs for OM first > professional degrees that will keep us (OM) as a useful tool within healthcare > in the US, as independent practitioners. CA allowed western dx perhaps by mistake for 20 odd years. Now we will lose that right. Refresh my memory. What other states currently give the right to make western dx to Lac? And why would any new states go this route after reading the LHC report? I think many other states will take that report seriously rather than spend the money to do their own studies. I guess we'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 , acuman1@a... wrote: The ACAOM > Doctoral Task Force will hopefully be working on viable programs for OM first > professional degrees that will keep us (OM) as a useful tool within healthcare > in the US, as independent practitioners. And if its not going to happen in a state that favors unnecessary regulation of trade, why would it happen elsewhere. I don't understand why most of the libertarians I know in the field are the ones who argue most adamantly for an entry level doc degree. I assume this would replace the masters as a route altogether. You can already get your DAOM before you practice if you like. The state of CA will never make that mandatory without a demonstrated public safety need. That is now clear and reflects a libertarian trend in CA, not a big D Democratic one. Arguing that the bar to entry into practice should be set higher than current is not libertarian, it is, dare I say so, big D Democratic. How can one's basic philosophy be opposed to unnecessary government regs and yet also want to keep people out of the profession with unnecessary bars to entry? I have always found this odd about some libertarians. The one freedom that all seem to agree upon is the right to make money without the government taking any. I don't see much else consistent in mainstream libertarian philosophy though. Why would those " other " states that are so much more libertarian than CA even consider raising the entry bar? I think the anti-corporate libertarianism that also rejects all regulation of contracts between individuals such as Roger Wicke espouses in his writings is a much more intellectually consistent libertarian philosophy. In that model, licensing is optional and buyer beware. That's libertarianism. I can't think of a better analogy for a mandatory entry level DAOM than protectionism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 In a message dated 10/17/04 2:44:08 PM, writes: > " I certainly see no way that the goal of entry level primary care doc > could be met w/o at least 1000 hours of focused WM education and all > supervisors in clinic trained to guide students in all those areas. " > > What about having an actual science prerequisite for OM college instead of > any BA or BS program? I would think that would take care of a large part of > that 1000 hours you are referring to. > > " BTW, calling NDs MD wannabes is the most outrageous example of the pot > calling the kettle black I have ever seen on this list. The entire > battle in CA to get an OMD title was exactly that. A bunch of doctor > wannabes. NDs get as much training in western dx as western med > students so they could have parity with MDs. There is no difference > at all in your goal. " > In tis case, I take being outrageous as a compliment. I'm referring to ND's (and this goes for DC's as well) who seem to be under the impression that because they have an ND " doc " degree, that they deserve the same ability to know how to do acupuncture in 50 hours, or 500 for that matter. That is an MD wannabe. The MD status of unlimited scope is entirely political in nature, and has been given only to DO's thus far. The request to have independent practices is quite different, and has been given to ND's, DC's and DOM's, in some states. Perhaps we should all come together and have a single degree, with specialization. That would be a kicker. What needs to be done is to develop levels of education necessary to safely and knowledgably use our field of medicine in todays world. I do not think that requiring us to work under MD's to have access to lab testing and basic western diagnosis is necessary. Being able to follow a patient with a OM dysfunction via lab testing is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as we also use our OM perspective to look at them, even retaining an understanding of the Western Medicine mechanisms of toxicology and utility. DAvid David Molony 101 Bridge Street Catasauqua, PA 18032 Phone (610)264-2755 Fax (610) 264-7292 **********Confidentiality Notice ********** This electronic transmission and any attached documents or other writings are confidential and are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) identified above. This message may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure under applicable law, including the FTC Safeguard Rule and U.S.-EU Safe Harbor Principles. If you are the intended recipient, you are responsible for establishing appropriate safeguards to maintain data integrity and security. If the receiver of this information is not the intended recipient, or the employee, or agent responsible for delivering the information to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, reading, dissemination, distribution, copying or storage of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender by return email and delete the electronic transmission, including all attachments from your system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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