Guest guest Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 Hi, a case study! I will see a woman today, pregnant 7 months, tang niao bing has been diagnosed this week. She is constitutionally weak. Now she feels tired, has severe insomnia, back pain, water swelling in the legs and wrists with painful ankles (diff to walk). Nausea and a little vomiting. Gums are sensitive and swollen. Headache, but only slightly. Polyuria, and even more at night. Restless fetus, some abdominal pain. Feels hot in the head and back, but lower body and arms are very cold since a few weeks. Pulse weak and slippery, tongue short, stiff and with very red tip. Coating thick, greasy, white. Diet hasn t been that good before, ate lots of ice-cream and now still drinks 4 cups of milk per day, which I suspect she does not digest very well. My diagnosis: yin yang dual vacuity, with yin more vacuous than yang. sugar urine disease. The formula I chose mainly nourishes yin and clears heat, calms the fetus. (zeng ye tang he bai hu tang jia jian): sheng di 24g xuan shen 30g mai dong 24g shi he 15g zhi mu 9g huang qin 9g huang lian 6g tian hua fen 9g zhu ma gen 15g xu duan 15g tu si zi 12g shan zhu yu 9g shou wu 15g However, this does not take care of the yang vacuity and water swelling. shen qi wan might be able to take care of that. What do you people think , could I give shen qi qan as pills and let her take those together with the above formula (although not at the same moment)? I don't have enough experience to compose a formula that complex that would take care of all her symptoms. Any comments are welcome, Tom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 , " Tom Verhaeghe " <verhaeghe_tom@h...> wrote: > > Hi, a case study! > Hi, looks like a mingmen fire problem, qi and fluids can not descend (biao), since " kidneys " (water) are too cold (ben), this explains insomnia, hot feelings in the upper part, swollen gum. Secondly there is no correct transformation of qi and fluids in the lower jiao (Qi Hua), lack of warmth to circulate qi and fluids correctly. Try to get the idea of " zhen wu tang " in order to modify it for her circumstances. All the best, Karin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 My understanding is that tian hua fen is teratogenic and contraindicated in pregnancy. Also huang lian in last several months of pregnancy as the berberine may contribute to neonatal jaundice. Otherwise, I would like to hear about the outcome you see after several weeks on the formula. Lifestyle and dietary advice, enough calories from low glycemic carbohydrates, adequate protein and salt may help the swelling. Valerie Hobbs, LAc , " Tom Verhaeghe " <verhaeghe_tom@h...> wrote: > > Hi, a case study! > > I will see a woman today, pregnant 7 months, tang niao bing has been > diagnosed this week. > She is constitutionally weak. Now she feels tired, has severe insomnia, back > pain, water swelling in the legs and wrists with painful ankles (diff to > walk). Nausea and a little vomiting. Gums are sensitive and swollen. > Headache, but only slightly. Polyuria, and even more at night. Restless > fetus, some abdominal pain. Feels hot in the head and back, but lower body > and arms are very cold since a few weeks. Pulse weak and slippery, tongue > short, stiff and with very red tip. Coating thick, greasy, white. Diet hasn > t been that good before, ate lots of ice-cream and now still drinks 4 cups > of milk per day, which I suspect she does not digest very well. > > My diagnosis: yin yang dual vacuity, with yin more vacuous than yang. sugar > urine disease. > > The formula I chose mainly nourishes yin and clears heat, calms the fetus. > (zeng ye tang he bai hu tang jia jian): > > sheng di 24g > xuan shen 30g > mai dong 24g > shi he 15g > zhi mu 9g > huang qin 9g > huang lian 6g > tian hua fen 9g > zhu ma gen 15g > xu duan 15g > tu si zi 12g > shan zhu yu 9g > shou wu 15g > > However, this does not take care of the yang vacuity and water swelling. > shen qi wan might be able to take care of that. What do you people think , > could I give shen qi qan as pills and let her take those together with the > above formula (although not at the same moment)? I don't have enough > experience to compose a formula that complex that would take care of all her > symptoms. > > Any comments are welcome, > > Tom. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 looks like a mingmen fire problem, qi and fluids can not descend (biao), > since " kidneys " (water) are too cold (ben), this explains insomnia, > hot feelings in the upper part, swollen gum. Secondly there is no > correct transformation of qi and fluids in the lower jiao (Qi Hua), > lack of warmth to circulate qi and fluids correctly. Thanks for the reply, stupid me I forgot to mention that she had a long history of insomnia and fatigue and what looked like yin xu to me (she's a friend of my wife). So in my eyes the yin xu came first. Karin, wouldn't you think that Zhen wu tang would have too strong an effect on the polyuria that already exists? Some heat clearing medicinals would also have to be added, as the heat signs are serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 <valeriehobbs1@m...> wrote: > > > My understanding is that tian hua fen is teratogenic and > contraindicated in pregnancy. I didn't know that. It is being used in China though, during pregnancy. Could it be that the teratogenic effect is lost in the formula? I'm not sure how much the patient will comply though now. It has come to my attention yesterday that she only took one ji until now, and that she now places more emphasis on western medical treatment. I already gave her some diet advice, don't know how she will comply. She seems to say yes to me, and then do something else. Talked a long time with her though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 , " verhaeghe_tom " > Karin, wouldn't you think that Zhen wu tang would have too strong an > effect on the polyuria that already exists? ... baizhu, fuling and shengjiang promote the excretion of the pathological fluids not, if you do not warm simultaneously the kidneys in order to restore a normal fluid metabolism, (I would be cautious with Fu Zi in pregnancy) „...There is true water and guest water. When the kidney qi is warm guest water is also absorbed and turned into true water. When the kidney qi is cold true water is also chased (outwards) and becomes guest water.... " (neike Lecture with V.Scheid, March 2002) give us some more signs ? What's about thirst, are the pulses deep, thin ? does she suffers from sweating, palpitations what's about these thick greasy white coating Karin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 If I remember correctly, isn't tian Hua fen used to induce abortions? yehuda " When you see someone doing something wrong, realize that it was brought before you because you did something similar. Therefore, do not judge him, judge yourself. " The Baal Shem Tov Hakodesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 , " bervoets_fauska " > > give us some more signs ? > What's about thirst, are the pulses deep, thin ? > does she suffers from sweating, palpitations > what's about these thick greasy white coating > > Karin She is thirsty all the time, but does not drink that much. Pulses are weak and deep, not thin. Sweating a little at night, with insomnia. No palpitations. I figure the thick greasy white coating is because of all the milk she has been drinking. A lot of things to take care of: pregnancy, diabetes, fatigue and insomnia, digestion,... It still looks like yin xu is of more importance than yang xu, but I am still uncertain whether I should first treat the yang xu (or ming men fire xu) as it presents itself now, or the yin xu that has caused it. Or everything together. I guess that was my biggest concern with this patient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 yes - I have heard it from a reliable source as well. Yehuda L Frischman < wrote: If I remember correctly, isn't tian Hua fen used to induce abortions? yehuda " When you see someone doing something wrong, realize that it was brought before you because you did something similar. Therefore, do not judge him, judge yourself. " The Baal Shem Tov Hakodesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 1 -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: verhaeghe_tom [verhaeghe_tom] Verzonden: donderdag 18 november 2004 1:40 Aan: Onderwerp: Re: pregnancy with diabetes <valeriehobbs1@m...> wrote: > > > My understanding is that tian hua fen is teratogenic and > contraindicated in pregnancy. I didn't know that. It is being used in China though, during pregnancy. Could it be that the teratogenic effect is lost in the formula? I'm not sure how much the patient will comply though now. It has come to my attention yesterday that she only took one ji until now, and that she now places more emphasis on western medical treatment. I already gave her some diet advice, don't know how she will comply. She seems to say yes to me, and then do something else. Talked a long time with her though. Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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