Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 Here is a translation from the zhong yao da ci dian entry on " other " parts of cannabis (by Eric brand). I think the characters are in unicode. Although several parts of the cannabis plant have been used in Chinese medicine, only the seeds are frequently used at this time. Â黨M¨¢ hu¨¡ refers to the flower of male cannabis plants. M¨¢ hu¨¡ is bitter and acrid in flavor with a warm nature; some sources indicate that it possesses toxicity. Its actions are to dispel wind and quicken the blood. It is indicated for the treatment of wind disease with numbness and tingling of the limbs, hemilateral itching, and menstrual block. M¨¢ hu¨¡ may also be mixed with moxa and burned in cones on the skin to treat scrofula. Âé¸ùM¨¢ g¨¥n is the root of the cannabis plant. M¨¢ g¨¥n dispels stasis and stanches bleeding. It is used in the treatment of strangury diseases, flooding and spotting, vaginal discharge, difficult delivery, retention of the placenta, and knocks and falls. It is taken orally, either as a decoction or crushed to extract its fresh juice. ÂéʈM¨¢ f¨¦n refers to the flower of female cannabis plants. It is acrid, bitter, and balanced, and is traditionally considered to possess toxicity. Its actions are to dispel wind, relieve pain, and settle tetany. It is indicated for ¡°pain wind,¡± which is a type of impediment disease that is characterized by acute pain of an unfixed location. M¨¢ f¨¦n is also traditionally indicated for other impediment patterns, mania and withdrawal, insomnia, and cough and panting. The dose used is 0.3¨C0.6 g when taken internally as a decoction, or it may be crushed and applied to the affected area for external use. It is contraindicated in weak health or in pregnancy. ÂéÒ¶M¨¢ y¨¨ refers to the leaves of the cannabis plant. The leaves are acrid and are said to possess toxicity. M¨¢ y¨¨ is used to treat malaria, panting, and roundworms. The leaves are crushed to extract their juice for use in making pills and powders. ÂéƤM¨¢ p¨ª is the cortex of the cannabis stalk. It is said to enter the large intestine and spleen channels, and it dispels stasis and disinhibits water. M¨¢ p¨ª treats knocks and falls and hot strangury with distention and pain. Compare to Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing , which does not mention toxicity Here is my very rough but hopefully functional connotative translation of the entry on cannabis from my chinese version: spicy, neutral. cures the 7 damages, benefits (disinhibits) the five zang, cures cold blood qi. Consumption over a long time will will make one a sage, able to see ghosts and spirits, with superhuman abilities like gods and it will lighten one's body (translator's note: according to Unschuld, this last line is taoist code for creating an immortal spiritual embryo - more details to come - see Medicine in China: History of Pharmaceutics). Chinese Herbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 , wrote: > Here is a translation from the zhong yao da ci dian entry on " other " > parts of cannabis (by Eric brand). I think the characters are in > unicode. actually set your browser text or language encoding to simplified chinese (GB2312) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 , wrote: M¨¢ g¨¥n dispels stasis and > stanches bleeding. quite similar to san qi, it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 , wrote: > Here is a translation from the zhong yao da ci dian entry on " other " > parts of cannabis (by Eric brand). moving stagnant qi and blood seems to be indicated for every part except the seeds. I recall a list member years ago horrified that we would even entertain the idea of medicinal marijuana (which had apparently cured a hiccups case). guess shen nong beat us to it by 2000 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 The accents messed up the pinyin display. ma hua= male cannabis flowers ma gen= cannabis root ma fen= female flowers ma ye= leaves ma pi= cortex (of the stalk) The dose of ma fen (the only one with a dose range given, if I recall correctly) is 0.3-0.6 g. That didn't display correctly on the post. Interestingly, several parts of the plant are described as having a ma2 zui4 effect. In modern Chinese, this is generally translated as anesthetic. I am not sure what the term meant historically (it literally means cannabis-drunkenness, more or less). If anyone has any insights on what this term meant during different historical periods, I would greatly appreciate it. Eric Brand , wrote: > Here is a translation from the zhong yao da ci dian entry on " other " > parts of cannabis (by Eric brand). I think the characters are in > unicode. > > Although several parts of the cannabis plant have been used in Chinese > medicine, only the seeds are frequently used at this time. > Â黨M¨¢ hu¨¡ refers to the flower of male cannabis plants. M¨¢ hu¨¡ is > bitter and acrid in flavor with a warm nature; some sources indicate > that it > possesses toxicity. Its actions are to dispel wind and quicken the > blood. It is > indicated for the treatment of wind disease with numbness and tingling > of the > limbs, hemilateral itching, and menstrual block. M¨¢ hu¨¡ may also be > mixed > with moxa and burned in cones on the skin to treat scrofula. > Âé¸ùM¨¢ g¨¥n is the root of the cannabis plant. M¨¢ g¨¥n dispels stasis and > stanches bleeding. It is used in the treatment of strangury diseases, > flooding > and spotting, vaginal discharge, difficult delivery, retention of the > placenta, > and knocks and falls. It is taken orally, either as a decoction or > crushed to > extract its fresh juice. > ÂéʈM¨¢ f¨¦n refers to the flower of female cannabis plants. It is acrid, > bitter, and balanced, and is traditionally considered to possess > toxicity. Its > actions are to dispel wind, relieve pain, and settle tetany. It is > indicated for > ¡°pain wind,¡± which is a type of impediment disease that is > characterized by > acute pain of an unfixed location. M¨¢ f¨¦n is also traditionally > indicated for > other impediment patterns, mania and withdrawal, insomnia, and cough and > panting. The dose used is 0.3¨C0.6 g when taken internally as a > decoction, or it > may be crushed and applied to the affected area for external use. It is > contraindicated in weak health or in pregnancy. > ÂéÒ¶M¨¢ y¨¨ refers to the leaves of the cannabis plant. The leaves are acrid > and are said to possess toxicity. M¨¢ y¨¨ is used to treat malaria, > panting, and > roundworms. The leaves are crushed to extract their juice for use in > making > pills and powders. > ÂéƤM¨¢ p¨ª is the cortex of the cannabis stalk. It is said to enter the > large > intestine and spleen channels, and it dispels stasis and disinhibits > water. M¨¢ > p¨ª treats knocks and falls and hot strangury with distention and pain. > > Compare to Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing , which does not mention toxicity > > Here is my very rough but hopefully functional connotative translation > of the entry on cannabis from my chinese version: > > spicy, neutral. cures the 7 damages, benefits (disinhibits) the five > zang, cures cold blood qi. Consumption over a long time will will make > one a sage, able to see ghosts and spirits, with superhuman abilities > like gods and it will lighten one's body > > (translator's note: according to Unschuld, this last line is taoist > code for creating an immortal spiritual embryo - more details to come - > see Medicine in China: History of Pharmaceutics). > > > > Chinese Herbs > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 Most cannabis in China is non-psychoactive hemp. If anyone has information on the historical folk or medical use or trade in definitively psychoactive forms of cannabis by the Chinese, it would be appreciated. Psychoactive cannabis is mostly found in China in regions inhabited by ethnic minority groups in the Western part of the country. It is unclear to me how much or how little psychoactive cannabis reached the Chinese literati society. I would presume that it would have reached them early on via Muslim or Indian traders, but I would welcome any details that might be known on such matters. Thanks, Eric , " smilinglotus " <smilinglotus> wrote: > > The accents messed up the pinyin display. > > ma hua= male cannabis flowers > ma gen= cannabis root > ma fen= female flowers > ma ye= leaves > ma pi= cortex (of the stalk) > > The dose of ma fen (the only one with a dose range given, if I > recall correctly) is 0.3-0.6 g. That didn't display correctly on > the post. > > Interestingly, several parts of the plant are described as having a > ma2 zui4 effect. In modern Chinese, this is generally translated as > anesthetic. I am not sure what the term meant historically (it > literally means cannabis-drunkenness, more or less). If anyone has > any insights on what this term meant during different historical > periods, I would greatly appreciate it. > > Eric Brand > > > , > wrote: > > Here is a translation from the zhong yao da ci dian entry > on " other " > > parts of cannabis (by Eric brand). I think the characters are in > > unicode. > > > > Although several parts of the cannabis plant have been used in > Chinese > > medicine, only the seeds are frequently used at this time. > > Â黨M¨¢ hu¨¡ refers to the flower of male cannabis plants. M¨¢ > hu¨¡ is > > bitter and acrid in flavor with a warm nature; some sources > indicate > > that it > > possesses toxicity. Its actions are to dispel wind and quicken the > > blood. It is > > indicated for the treatment of wind disease with numbness and > tingling > > of the > > limbs, hemilateral itching, and menstrual block. M¨¢ hu¨¡ may also > be > > mixed > > with moxa and burned in cones on the skin to treat scrofula. > > Âé¸ùM¨¢ g¨¥n is the root of the cannabis plant. M¨¢ g¨¥n dispels > stasis and > > stanches bleeding. It is used in the treatment of strangury > diseases, > > flooding > > and spotting, vaginal discharge, difficult delivery, retention of > the > > placenta, > > and knocks and falls. It is taken orally, either as a decoction or > > crushed to > > extract its fresh juice. > > ÂéʈM¨¢ f¨¦n refers to the flower of female cannabis plants. It is > acrid, > > bitter, and balanced, and is traditionally considered to possess > > toxicity. Its > > actions are to dispel wind, relieve pain, and settle tetany. It is > > indicated for > > ¡°pain wind,¡± which is a type of impediment disease that is > > characterized by > > acute pain of an unfixed location. M¨¢ f¨¦n is also traditionally > > indicated for > > other impediment patterns, mania and withdrawal, insomnia, and > cough and > > panting. The dose used is 0.3¨C0.6 g when taken internally as a > > decoction, or it > > may be crushed and applied to the affected area for external use. > It is > > contraindicated in weak health or in pregnancy. > > ÂéÒ¶M¨¢ y¨¨ refers to the leaves of the cannabis plant. The leaves > are acrid > > and are said to possess toxicity. M¨¢ y¨¨ is used to treat > malaria, > > panting, and > > roundworms. The leaves are crushed to extract their juice for use > in > > making > > pills and powders. > > ÂéƤM¨¢ p¨ª is the cortex of the cannabis stalk. It is said to > enter the > > large > > intestine and spleen channels, and it dispels stasis and > disinhibits > > water. M¨¢ > > p¨ª treats knocks and falls and hot strangury with distention and > pain. > > > > Compare to Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing , which does not mention toxicity > > > > Here is my very rough but hopefully functional connotative > translation > > of the entry on cannabis from my chinese version: > > > > spicy, neutral. cures the 7 damages, benefits (disinhibits) the > five > > zang, cures cold blood qi. Consumption over a long time will will > make > > one a sage, able to see ghosts and spirits, with superhuman > abilities > > like gods and it will lighten one's body > > > > (translator's note: according to Unschuld, this last line is > taoist > > code for creating an immortal spiritual embryo - more details to > come - > > see Medicine in China: History of Pharmaceutics). > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 , " smilinglotus " <smilinglotus> wrote: It is unclear to me how much or how little > psychoactive cannabis reached the Chinese literati society. the properties ascribed to ma hua definitely appear to be those of a psychoactive herb. Hemp with no THC would not treat insomnia, spasm and mania. According to Needham, the daoists who likely wrote the shen nong ben cao, spent a lot of time hanging out with shamanic tribes on the outskirts of china. They were kind of the anti-establishment hippies of their days, according to Needham. Interestingly, Needham had these insights before the sixties or even the fifties. BTW, Needham was a system biologist, a renowned embryologist actually, before switching to chinese studies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 > the properties ascribed to ma hua definitely appear to be those of a psychoactive herb. > Hemp with no THC would not treat insomnia, spasm and mania. I would also assume this to be the case. I believe you are referring to ma fen (female flowers), not ma hua (male flowers); judging from the dose used for ma fen and the indications (menstrual pain, insomnia, etc), it seems safe to assume they are referring to a psychoactive form of the plant. They also list delta-1 THC (aka delta-9 THC, international nomenclature is not standard but they are the same chemical) as an ingredient. The uses in Western medicine of cannabis are entirely dependent on cannabinoids, so it would seem likely that medicinal properties in Chinese would reflect this as well. There is also the fact that multiple cannabis preparations are said in Chinese to have a ma2 zui4 effect, which likely refers to something similar to our concept of psychoactivity. I think there is enough reason to suspect that the Chinese are referring to psychoactive substances in their entries in the zhong yao da ci dian, but what I would be interested to know is whether they observed differences in species, regions, cultivars, etc that would be perceived to have different effects. Did they know about smoking as a means of administration? Did they incorporate stronger preparations like hashish into medicine at any point in history? What effect did the cultural revolution have on the properties reported in modern texts? These are my main questions. Eric , " " wrote: > > , " smilinglotus " <smilinglotus> wrote: > It is unclear to me how much or how little > > psychoactive cannabis reached the Chinese literati society. > > the properties ascribed to ma hua definitely appear to be those of a psychoactive herb. > Hemp with no THC would not treat insomnia, spasm and mania. According to Needham, > the daoists who likely wrote the shen nong ben cao, spent a lot of time hanging out with > shamanic tribes on the outskirts of china. They were kind of the anti-establishment > hippies of their days, according to Needham. Interestingly, Needham had these insights > before the sixties or even the fifties. BTW, Needham was a system biologist, a renowned > embryologist actually, before switching to chinese studies. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2004 Report Share Posted November 30, 2004 The plot thickens. Apparently strains of cannabis from Hokkaido, Japan have been shown to be reasonably potent as far as THC content goes. Interestingly, Japanese cannabis appeared (at the time of the study, 1956) to lack significant quantities of cannabidiol (CBD). Cannabidiol, a constituent of cannabis plants in most parts of the world, is a cannabinoid which is not psychoactive but is an important chemical in modern medical research. Most hemp found today in Eastern China is not psychoactive. This wouldn't rule out some potential medical applications, since non- psychoactive specimens of hemp may still have medical value based on their CBD (cannabidiol) content. The main areas where psychoactive cannabis exists in China, as far as I understand, are the Muslim area of Xinjiang in the West, and the Southwestern state of Yunnan. Most locals in Yunnan are unaware that cannabis is a psychoactive drug, and in fact, the majority of plants that grow there are not psychoactive. I once saw a Buddhist temple in the mountains with a 15-foot flowering female cannabis plant outside the monastery kitchen with a red ribbon tied around it- did they use it? I have no idea. In mountainous regions inhabited by ethnic minorities, squat, sexed, cannabis plants with huge flower clusters can be spotted right outside the front door of houses. I have a hard time believing that the people living in those houses don't know that it is psychoactive, because the high mountain regions indeed have cannabis that is not purely fiber hemp. The average Chinese person in Yunnan nonetheless does not know that hemp is potentially psychoactive. You can easily see huge flowering plants outside of public restrooms downtown in a city of three million people. Mainstream Chinese awareness of cannabis is low at the present time. How it was perceived in earlier times and in other regions is hard to say. I don't know whether oil or alcohol extracts of cannabis were used in Chinese medicine, or whether decoctions employed natural animal fats (if decocted with foods) as opposed to simple water decoctions. I wonder this because cannabis is not very active unless heated, and a simple water decoction would not be particularly psychotropic. Eric , " smilinglotus " <smilinglotus> wrote: > > > the properties ascribed to ma hua definitely appear to be those of > a psychoactive herb. > > Hemp with no THC would not treat insomnia, spasm and mania. > > I would also assume this to be the case. I believe you are > referring to ma fen (female flowers), not ma hua (male flowers); > judging from the dose used for ma fen and the indications (menstrual > pain, insomnia, etc), it seems safe to assume they are referring to > a psychoactive form of the plant. They also list delta-1 THC (aka > delta-9 THC, international nomenclature is not standard but they are > the same chemical) as an ingredient. The uses in Western medicine > of cannabis are entirely dependent on cannabinoids, so it would seem > likely that medicinal properties in Chinese would reflect this as > well. > > There is also the fact that multiple cannabis preparations are said > in Chinese to have a ma2 zui4 effect, which likely refers to > something similar to our concept of psychoactivity. I think there > is enough reason to suspect that the Chinese are referring to > psychoactive substances in their entries in the zhong yao da ci > dian, but what I would be interested to know is whether they > observed differences in species, regions, cultivars, etc that would > be perceived to have different effects. Did they know about smoking > as a means of administration? Did they incorporate stronger > preparations like hashish into medicine at any point in history? > What effect did the cultural revolution have on the properties > reported in modern texts? These are my main questions. > > Eric > > , " " > wrote: > > > > , " smilinglotus " > <smilinglotus> wrote: > > It is unclear to me how much or how little > > > psychoactive cannabis reached the Chinese literati society. > > > > the properties ascribed to ma hua definitely appear to be those of > a psychoactive herb. > > Hemp with no THC would not treat insomnia, spasm and mania. > According to Needham, > > the daoists who likely wrote the shen nong ben cao, spent a lot of > time hanging out with > > shamanic tribes on the outskirts of china. They were kind of the > anti-establishment > > hippies of their days, according to Needham. Interestingly, > Needham had these insights > > before the sixties or even the fifties. BTW, Needham was a system > biologist, a renowned > > embryologist actually, before switching to chinese studies. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2004 Report Share Posted November 30, 2004 Can you tell me where in Needham's writings (I assume " Science and Civilization in China " ) you found this? I'd like to read up on this interesting piece of history. Perhaps Shen Nong was their contemporary Jerry Garcia! , " " wrote: > According to Needham, > the daoists who likely wrote the shen nong ben cao, spent a lot of time hanging out with > shamanic tribes on the outskirts of china. They were kind of the anti-establishment > hippies of their days, according to Needham. Interestingly, Needham had these insights > before the sixties or even the fifties. BTW, Needham was a system biologist, a renowned > embryologist actually, before switching to chinese studies. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2004 Report Share Posted November 30, 2004 " The main areas where psychoactive cannabis exists in China, as far as I understand, are the Muslim area of Xinjiang in the West, and the Southwestern state of Yunnan. " When I lived at the Shanghai Music Conservatory in 1982 (the Chinese medical college did not have a foreign students dorm at that time), there were lots of xiao shu min zu (minorities) studying at that school. These minorities ate in a separate canteen and lived in separate dormitories. (There was a lot of very blatant racism between these minorities and the Han-zu. The afternoon soccer games were more disguised battles than games.) On Saturday nights, these minorities would all party together in their dormitory, especially the Xingjiang ren (mostly Uighurs, Uzbeks, and Kazakhs), Tibetans, Manchurians, and Mongols. Often, older, non-student Xingjiang ren would also come to these parties. While the younger Xingjiang ren would drink bai jiu (grain alcohol) and pi jiu (beer), the older Xingjiang ren would not (being practicing Muslims). However, every now and then, one or two of these older men would pass a small metal box around, get up, and go to the bathroom. Then they would come back 10 minutes later very mellow and happy looking. One evening, I happened to need to pee when a couple of these older Xingjiang ren were also in the loo. They were in there toking on some good quality hash which they were quite happy to share. After that, my Xingjiang friends told me that, if I wanted to score, I could from any of the Xingjiang black market money changers downtown. The best hash was found outside the Sailors Union right off the Whangpoo River. BTW, because these conservatory students were all great musicians of one sort or another, these were awesome all night parties with singing, dancing, and drinking till you were literally under the table or the beds. I lived from week to week for these parties. They were the highlight of my study that year in China. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2004 Report Share Posted November 30, 2004 , " zrosenberg2001 " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > > > Can you tell me where in Needham's writings (I assume " Science and > Civilization in China " ) you found this? I'd like to read up on this > interesting piece of history. Perhaps Shen Nong was their > contemporary Jerry Garcia! somewhere in the intro chapter on Taoism. I'll see if I can find it if I have time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2004 Report Share Posted November 30, 2004 , " smilinglotus " <smilinglotus> wrote: and a simple water decoction would not be > particularly psychotropic. > A simple decoction of cannabis alone probably would not. However in a decoction that included fats that would percolate into the decoction through mechanical agitation from boiling (like how fat is extracted in chicken soup despite being a decoction, the oil in the decoction would now dissolve any fat or alcohol soluble constituents to some degree. This would include any of the oily seeds including huo ma ren itself (consider the high likelihood that entire flower/seed clusters were often boiled together due to convenience and perhaps even the observation that seedless buds didn't extract well in water). In addition, the presence of herbs with large amounts of saponins would also facilitate the extraction of fat soluble ingredients. Personally, I think the percolation of oils into decoction (coffee is another example, BTW) is the main method by which this occurs. I don't think chinese herbal decoctions would be very active in many cases if they depended solely on water based dissolution. Finally,it is hard to imagine that herbs indicated for bi syndrome were not extracted in wine at some time by some one. According to a very old book I have on my shelf, mainstream chinese culture frowned on the use of psychoactive cannabis and referred to it with derogatories that smack of reefer madness (a campaign orchestrated against ethnic minorities in the US, BTW. A common historical power tactic in many cultures has been to demonize a substance and then persecute those who use it - see food of the gods by Terence McKenna, I think). I will address this in the monograph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2004 Report Share Posted November 30, 2004 Eric, you mean you never just tried rolling one up just to see? Where's your scientific curiosity, Man? a In mountainous regions inhabited by ethnic minorities, squat, sexed, cannabis plants with huge flower clusters can be spotted right outside the front door of houses. I have a hard time believing that the people living in those houses don't know that it is psychoactive, because the high mountain regions indeed have cannabis that is not purely fiber hemp. The average Chinese person in Yunnan nonetheless does not know that hemp is potentially psychoactive. You can easily see huge flowering plants outside of public restrooms downtown in a city of three million people. Mainstream Chinese awareness of cannabis is low at the present time. How it was perceived in earlier times and in other regions is hard to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2004 Report Share Posted November 30, 2004 , " " wrote: > > moving stagnant qi and blood seems to be indicated for every part except the seeds. Actually, the seeds are also associated with a blood-quickening action. In the zhong yao xue texts in Chinese, additional indications are given beyond the well-known indications of constipation due to intestinal dryness and non-growth and loss of hair and whiskers. Consider this translation of additional indications, for example: Additionally, huo3 ma2 ren2 kills worms and treats lai4 sores (the term " lai4 sores " refers to a skin condition of scab and lichen characterized by hair loss on the affected area). Huo3 ma2 ren2 also frees strangury and is thus used for treating heat strangury. Finally, huo3 ma2 ren2 quickens the blood and is used to treat postpartum disorders, menstrual irregularities, and knocks and falls. Eric Brand > , wrote: > > Here is a translation from the zhong yao da ci dian entry on " other " > > parts of cannabis (by Eric brand). > I > recall a list member years ago horrified that we would even entertain the idea of medicinal > marijuana (which had apparently cured a hiccups case). guess shen nong beat us to it by > 2000 years. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2004 Report Share Posted December 1, 2004 , " smilinglotus " <smilinglotus> wrote: > > , " " > wrote: > > > moving stagnant qi and blood seems to be indicated for every > part except the seeds. > > Actually, the seeds are also associated with a blood-quickening > action. well, there you go. kind of like tao ren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.