Guest guest Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 It appears that both national organizations will be proceeding forward with an agenda of an entry level doctorate degree, though with a slightly different emphasis. this despite there being no pressing public need, no majority support in the field (based upon ACAOM surveys) and the little hoover report, which expressly said there was not even any justification for the last increase in hours. when I asked why this strategy was continuing, I was told because no other 4 year medical degree results in a master's degree. While that may be true, four year medical degrees do not necessarily result in the doctor title. Physical therapist, nurse practitioner, physician's assistants all require 4 or more years of total training, yet do not result in the title doctor. The only 4 years health professional degrees that do result in the title doctor are those in which there is significant WESTERN medical training, enough to make a medical diagnosis, such as chiropractic and the states that license NDs. There is no precedent for an allied healthcare provider, regardless of independent status, to have this title if they are not trained to make western dx. LHC said we are not so trained and advised that such training should NOT be required as part of our entry level licenses. They said we should get a western med license if we want to practice this way. I am amazed that our so-called leaders have somehow twisted this message to mean full steam ahead with the doctorate. This is going to waste valuable professional resources on this futile cause. I would urge the rank and file to withdraw support from any organization that supports an entry level doctorate and devote resources to organizations that will fight important battles, such as the continued free access to herbs and DECREASED government regulation of EVERYTHING (instead of the increased barriers to practice proposed by those advocate an entry level DAOM - yes, requiring more training to practice is about as anti-libertarian as one can get - voluntary titles and education are the true libertarian paradigm). the second tier doctorate more than serves any imaginable purpose of this title and for all those who want or need it for themselves or their practitioners, it's already there and its voluntary. Since there will be no grandfathering either way, those who want the title should get off their butts and enroll in one of the 4 existing programs or shut the heck up and stop wasting all our time and money on this going nowhere idea. The day of this hyper-regulatory crap is over. Chinese Herbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 In a message dated 12/5/2004 7:13:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, alonmarcus writes: >>>>Again you are missing the point of a recognized Dr level entry degree. This is the only way we will be a medical force in the US. And i do not mean a Dr degree from our current school programs. We need regional accredited professional Dr programs. Anything else will just result in our loosing any power over our own destiny. This is such a load of BS. You are in the process of destabilizing our profession. We will have fewer practitioners, less clout, less adherence to classic protocol. Entry doctoral degree is a poor idea. In the end, it will hurt our profession. You are hurting our profession. Todd is right. There are far more important issues to spend energy on. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 I would beg to differ with you on this idea that things are over. It would actually appear that they are just beginning. The events You speak of are all interconnected. As for the PT profession, they are also moving toward a professional doctorate degree. While I do understand the argument against wanting to change things, the truth is that we need to improve our status or nothing will happen. The Federal government appears to be interested in helping allopathic medicine eliminate us. We need to fight for state legislation that will allow for Continued usage and education in clinical labs. These are simply Rudimentary and yet losing this could be disasterous. Some herbal Conditions, like hepatitis, should be monitored. If you are prescribing Herbs, you should know what the lab values mean. Look, the chiropractors Also have this ability yet it does not reflect what they believe in. Chiropractors Have a limited ability here as well. They cannot diagnose outside of their Limited training. I have found very few DC actually order lab tests. It would not hurt us if we knew how to read an xray either. Think of the benefit for bone problems. In conclusion, if we are to keep a unified profession, that is inline with SE Asia then we need to fight for this. If not, then a divide will surely continue to widen between those of us trained in the states and those trained as physicians (medical) in the rest of the Orient. Our profession split from the MD years ago as they chose not to embrace us. Medicine today would be a whole lot different if they had chosen to. We need To become more savvy to the politics of what is going on. The national Associations are pursuing this because this is something that we, as a Profession, can do on our own. We do not need to have outside involvement To determine what we do. Please remember, that the usage of lab tests Is not the sole property of the AMA (see the Florida decision at AOMNC website) Nor is it a matter that we are required to do. It is a matter of us performing A service to our patients as best as we can. I hope you can join us in creating Harmony for us all by working together. Thanks for your concerns. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac On 12/5/04 3:20 PM, " " < wrote: > It appears that both national organizations will be proceeding forward > with an agenda of an entry level doctorate degree, though with a > slightly different emphasis. this despite there being no pressing > public need, no majority support in the field (based upon ACAOM > surveys) and the little hoover report, which expressly said there was > not even any justification for the last increase in hours. when I > asked why this strategy was continuing, I was told because no other 4 > year medical degree results in a master's degree. While that may be > true, four year medical degrees do not necessarily result in the doctor > title. Physical therapist, nurse practitioner, physician's assistants > all require 4 or more years of total training, yet do not result in the > title doctor. The only 4 years health professional degrees that do > result in the title doctor are those in which there is significant > WESTERN medical training, enough to make a medical diagnosis, such as > chiropractic and the states that license NDs. There is no precedent > for an allied healthcare provider, regardless of independent status, to > have this title if they are not trained to make western dx. LHC said > we are not so trained and advised that such training should NOT be > required as part of our entry level licenses. They said we should get > a western med license if we want to practice this way. I am amazed > that our so-called leaders have somehow twisted this message to mean > full steam ahead with the doctorate. This is going to waste valuable > professional resources on this futile cause. I would urge the rank and > file to withdraw support from any organization that supports an entry > level doctorate and devote resources to organizations that will fight > important battles, such as the continued free access to herbs and > DECREASED government regulation of EVERYTHING (instead of the increased > barriers to practice proposed by those advocate an entry level DAOM - > yes, requiring more training to practice is about as anti-libertarian > as one can get - voluntary titles and education are the true > libertarian paradigm). the second tier doctorate more than serves any > imaginable purpose of this title and for all those who want or need it > for themselves or their practitioners, it's already there and its > voluntary. Since there will be no grandfathering either way, those > who want the title should get off their butts and enroll in one of the > 4 existing programs or shut the heck up and stop wasting all our time > and money on this going nowhere idea. The day of this hyper-regulatory > crap is over. > > > Chinese Herbs > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board > approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free > discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 Please wake up people. Our profession has been unstable for a long time. It is now manifesting this as more outside pressure is being put upon us, by various governmental influences. We have no national standard, please do not say NCCAOM is a standard, I mean at the legislative level. Second, we missed the boat years ago by not making first primary professional doctorate the standard. Our predecessors, who did not like politics, chose for us a lower road with legislation. As a result, look what we have today, a mess. The current level of training is adequate for our profession to be a doctor. We are going through growing pains now as a result of what has transpired in the past. This is kind of like the federal budgetary issues, eventually we will need to pay our bills. We are just biding time and putting off change temporarily. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus > > >Re: doctoral folly continues >Mon, 6 Dec 2004 14:02:49 -0800 > >You are in the process of destabilizing our >profession. > >>> >O boy watch out > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 physician's assistants >>>PA is between 1 1/2 to 3 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 I am amazed that our so-called leaders have somehow twisted this message to mean full steam ahead with the doctorate. >>>Why should the profession pay any mind to the LHC. We should push for what is in our best intrests period. Since there will be no grandfathering either way, those who want the title should get off their butts and enroll in one of the 4 existing programs or shut the heck up and stop wasting all our time and money on this going nowhere idea. The day of this hyper-regulatory crap is over. >>>>Again you are missing the point of a recognized Dr level entry degree. This is the only way we will be a medical force in the US. And i do not mean a Dr degree from our current school programs. We need regional accredited professional Dr programs. Anything else will just result in our loosing any power over our own destiny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 For those doctor wannabe's, go to med school. We are not going to solve any of our problems by aping the title of doctor, either with volutnary post-entry level eduction or entry-level education going to a mandatory doctoral degree. If we continue to take the same kind of students and teach them by the same kinds of teachers in the same kinds of schools run by the same kinds of people, we will get the same kinds of graduates. If those same old-same old graduates call themselves doctors, we will be shooting ourselves in the foot for sure. I still say we should simply adopt our own, unique title. Even if it is a foreign word, like yi-sheng or yi-shi, with a little consistent P.R. effort we can get the public to adopt it within a year or so, no problem. Look how Madonna has made the word " kabbala " recognizable to everyone in a period of 12 months or less. Most Americans are comfortable with foreign title words like sensei, sifu, mullah, ayatollah, mujaheddin, rabbi, rebbe, lama, rinpoche, yogi, etc. Who knew what a fatwa was three or four years ago? Or an RPG or IED? Where did the words bagel, bialy, pizza, pannini, expresso, latte, bruschetta, salsa, fajitas, and tortilla come from? Not Anglo-Saxon; that's for sure. Americans adopted the title " barista " without any hesitation, and we all now know what a grande is. So why not Flaws Yi-sheng, Luger Yi-sheng, and Marcus Yi-sheng? All it would take is a will and some consistency of presentation. Are we so lacking in vision and the ability to think outside the box? The fact that we cannot come up with a more creative solution to the admitted issue of a workable title for members of our profession is itself testimony to our lack of smarts as a profession. But then Americans like our leaders to be average Joes, and average means just that: ho-hum, medium, ma-ma hu-hu, not exceptional, not superior, not great. Tant pis pour nous. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 You are in the process of destabilizing our profession. >>> O boy watch out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 Bob, The same logic would then hold true that if you want the title Yi sheng then one should move to China. Those of us in the states, may want to be respectfully called " doctor " as it is a common title for numerous healthcare providers who received the appropriate level of training. Of course you can always get a license in a state that provides this title such as Rhode Island (D Ac) or New Mexico (OMD). I wonder how the public would see this. Is this a better solution? I tend to like the Florida AP designation. What do you think? Later. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 > > > Re: doctoral folly continues >Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:08:04 -0000 > > >For those doctor wannabe's, go to med school. > >We are not going to solve any of our problems by aping the title of >doctor, either with volutnary post-entry level eduction or entry-level >education going to a mandatory doctoral degree. If we continue to take >the same kind of students and teach them by the same kinds of teachers >in the same kinds of schools run by the same kinds of people, we will >get the same kinds of graduates. If those same old-same old graduates >call themselves doctors, we will be shooting ourselves in the foot for >sure. > >I still say we should simply adopt our own, unique title. Even if it >is a foreign word, like yi-sheng or yi-shi, with a little consistent >P.R. effort we can get the public to adopt it within a year or so, no >problem. Look how Madonna has made the word " kabbala " recognizable to >everyone in a period of 12 months or less. Most Americans are >comfortable with foreign title words like sensei, sifu, mullah, >ayatollah, mujaheddin, rabbi, rebbe, lama, rinpoche, yogi, etc. Who >knew what a fatwa was three or four years ago? Or an RPG or IED? Where >did the words bagel, bialy, pizza, pannini, expresso, latte, >bruschetta, salsa, fajitas, and tortilla come from? Not Anglo-Saxon; >that's for sure. Americans adopted the title " barista " without any >hesitation, and we all now know what a grande is. So why not Flaws >Yi-sheng, Luger Yi-sheng, and Marcus Yi-sheng? All it would take is a >will and some consistency of presentation. > >Are we so lacking in vision and the ability to think outside the box? >The fact that we cannot come up with a more creative solution to the >admitted issue of a workable title for members of our profession is >itself testimony to our lack of smarts as a profession. But then >Americans like our leaders to be average Joes, and average means just >that: ho-hum, medium, ma-ma hu-hu, not exceptional, not superior, not >great. Tant pis pour nous. > >Bob > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 " The same logic would then hold true that if you want the title Yi sheng then one should move to China. " Not so. The title yi-sheng in China is used for persons with only a B.S. degree. Whether one has a B.S., M.S., Ph.D., or M.D. in China, all are called yi-sheng in clinic. As for our current graduates deserving to be called " doctor, " not on the planet I live on. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 " The Federal government appears to be interested in helping allopathic medicine eliminate us. " If you really want to fight this, then attack the root of the problem. That root is the Medical Practices Act that gave MDs a monopoly. This is unfair restraint of trade. The conservative Republicans who are currently in power are/should be/would be sympathetic to this argument. I have talked to Republican Senators who agree that the granting of this monopoly was a mistake and should never have occurred. This is essentially a freedom of choice and free market issue. It is the positive side to the current political situation. Repeal this monopoly (or at least make people aware of what it actually is) and you've struck to the root of the situation. Otherwise you're just clipping at the branches in a rigged system (as in rigged against us). Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Bob, well said. Ed Kasper LAc Santa Cruz, CA. Tuesday, December 07, 2004 2:10 AM Digest Number 2233 Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:08:04 -0000 " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 Re: doctoral folly continues For those doctor wannabe's, go to med school. We are not going to solve any of our problems by aping the title of doctor, either with volutnary post-entry level eduction or entry-level education going to a mandatory doctoral degree. If we continue to take the same kind of students and teach them by the same kinds of teachers in the same kinds of schools run by the same kinds of people, we will get the same kinds of graduates. If those same old-same old graduates call themselves doctors, we will be shooting ourselves in the foot for sure. I still say we should simply adopt our own, unique title. Even if it is a foreign word, like yi-sheng or yi-shi, with a little consistent P.R. effort we can get the public to adopt it within a year or so, no problem. Look how Madonna has made the word " kabbala " recognizable to everyone in a period of 12 months or less. Most Americans are comfortable with foreign title words like sensei, sifu, mullah, ayatollah, mujaheddin, rabbi, rebbe, lama, rinpoche, yogi, etc. Who knew what a fatwa was three or four years ago? Or an RPG or IED? Where did the words bagel, bialy, pizza, pannini, expresso, latte, bruschetta, salsa, fajitas, and tortilla come from? Not Anglo-Saxon; that's for sure. Americans adopted the title " barista " without any hesitation, and we all now know what a grande is. So why not Flaws Yi-sheng, Luger Yi-sheng, and Marcus Yi-sheng? All it would take is a will and some consistency of presentation. Are we so lacking in vision and the ability to think outside the box? The fact that we cannot come up with a more creative solution to the admitted issue of a workable title for members of our profession is itself testimony to our lack of smarts as a profession. But then Americans like our leaders to be average Joes, and average means just that: ho-hum, medium, ma-ma hu-hu, not exceptional, not superior, not great. Tant pis pour nous. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 So you do not think that practitioners who have attended post grad programs or those from SE Asia should be able to use the term doctor even when it is awarded by an OM college? Hmmh, just makes me wonder what planet that might be. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 > > > Re: doctoral folly continues >Tue, 07 Dec 2004 18:47:47 -0000 > > > " The same logic would then hold true that if you want the title Yi >sheng then one should move to China. " > >Not so. The title yi-sheng in China is used for persons with only a >B.S. degree. Whether one has a B.S., M.S., Ph.D., or M.D. in China, >all are called yi-sheng in clinic. > >As for our current graduates deserving to be called " doctor, " not on >the planet I live on. > >Bob > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 This term has no bearing or relationship to our western culture or times. Get a clue, we need something that the public can identify with other than obscurity. This would never fly with either the state legislators nor with most of us who want the public to know who we are. We are more than a technician with L Ac after our names. We need to look into the usage then of OMD, DOM or my favorite AP. Surely Bob would not be affended by the non-doctor term " physician " or would he? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus > > >Re: Re: doctoral folly continues >Wed, 8 Dec 2004 00:38:30 -0800 > > Yi sheng then >one should move to China. > >>>Or to the isles of fantasy > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 This brings up a good point about using these times and moving forward from a Republican (business point of view). This is exactly the argument that should be used to help CA L Ac retain the usage of labs, western diagnosis and xrays. The AMA is not the sole owner of these (they even lost a FL court case on this) as these are used by many other healthcare professionals as well. This may not be what was intended in this message but it makes sense. I think we will need to seriously look at the need for litigation in order to make changes. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 > > >Re: doctoral folly continues >Tue, 07 Dec 2004 18:56:25 -0000 > > > " The Federal government appears to be interested in helping allopathic >medicine eliminate us. " > >If you really want to fight this, then attack the root of the problem. >That root is the Medical Practices Act that gave MDs a monopoly. This >is unfair restraint of trade. The conservative Republicans who are >currently in power are/should be/would be sympathetic to this >argument. I have talked to Republican Senators who agree that the >granting of this monopoly was a mistake and should never have >occurred. This is essentially a freedom of choice and free market >issue. It is the positive side to the current political situation. >Repeal this monopoly (or at least make people aware of what it >actually is) and you've struck to the root of the situation. Otherwise >you're just clipping at the branches in a rigged system (as in rigged >against us). > >Bob > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 In a message dated 12/7/2004 2:02:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, pemachophel2001 writes: If you really want to fight this, then attack the root of the problem. That root is the Medical Practices Act that gave MDs a monopoly. This is unfair restraint of trade. The conservative Republicans who are currently in power are/should be/would be sympathetic to this argument. I have talked to Republican Senators who agree that the granting of this monopoly was a mistake and should never have occurred. This is essentially a freedom of choice and free market issue. It is the positive side to the current political situation. Repeal this monopoly (or at least make people aware of what it actually is) and you've struck to the root of the situation. Otherwise you're just clipping at the branches in a rigged system (as in rigged against us). Bob This is soooooo true Bob. What a simple and profound awareness. What is the possibility of repealing the monopoly? What a great option. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Yi sheng then one should move to China. >>>Or to the isles of fantasy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 The conservative Republicans who are currently in power are/should be/would be sympathetic to this argument. I have talked to Republican Senators who agree that the granting of this monopoly was a mistake and should never have occurred. >>>Amen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Chris, If it were ever possible, now is the time with a Republican majority in control of both houses of Congress as well as a Republican Prez and a soon-to-be staunchly conservative Supreme Court. As we all know, a majority of Americans make regular use of some kind of CAM, and, more importantly, where there's a will, there's a way. None of my generation ever thought we'd see the fall of the Berlin Wall or the collapse of the USSR. Yet, these both occurred relatively suddenly when the time was ripe. The biggest obstacle to this radical kind of sea change are those small-minded individuals who say it can't be done. As the old saw goes, " Whether you say you can or you can't, you're right. " The course of history is studded with examples of ideas which were considered fantasy that later turned out to be pivotal turning points in human culture and development. As another saying goes, " The wise man's wisdom is folly to the fool. " In any case, I have been making this suggestion (in print and in person) for 10 years or more. On this issue, the paternalistic Dems are actually our enemies. Strange, eh? If you want to push this forward, one possible way is contacting your state (not federal) Republican legislators as well as your local Libertarian Party. At the same time, try to create a coalition of all the state associations of CAM practitioners. The Medical Practices Acts are state laws. If even one could be repealed, this might create a domino effect. We'd have to analyze and pick the right state. Utah perhaps. It's staunchly Republican, staunchly individualistic, has lots of rich nutraceutical companies, and is small enough to be manageable politically. Other possibilities would be Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming. It certainly would get lots of media coverage and create a national debate. If you could manage this in one state, it would serve as an example to people in other states. That's typically the way this kind of legilation spreads nationally. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Bob, How about Florida as it went red this last election cycle? It has a lot of active practitioners who have won legal battles with the AMA (over the usage of term " physician " and also usage of western labs). There has been a precedent here that we should look at. It also has a lot of wealthy people who typically are Republicans. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac On 12/8/04 10:19 AM, " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > Chris, > > If it were ever possible, now is the time with a Republican majority > in control of both houses of Congress as well as a Republican Prez and > a soon-to-be staunchly conservative Supreme Court. As we all know, a > majority of Americans make regular use of some kind of CAM, and, more > importantly, where there's a will, there's a way. None of my > generation ever thought we'd see the fall of the Berlin Wall or the > collapse of the USSR. Yet, these both occurred relatively suddenly > when the time was ripe. > > The biggest obstacle to this radical kind of sea change are those > small-minded individuals who say it can't be done. As the old saw > goes, " Whether you say you can or you can't, you're right. " The course > of history is studded with examples of ideas which were considered > fantasy that later turned out to be pivotal turning points in human > culture and development. As another saying goes, " The wise man's > wisdom is folly to the fool. " > > In any case, I have been making this suggestion (in print and in > person) for 10 years or more. On this issue, the paternalistic Dems > are actually our enemies. Strange, eh? > > If you want to push this forward, one possible way is contacting your > state (not federal) Republican legislators as well as your local > Libertarian Party. At the same time, try to create a coalition of all > the state associations of CAM practitioners. The Medical Practices > Acts are state laws. If even one could be repealed, this might create > a domino effect. We'd have to analyze and pick the right state. Utah > perhaps. It's staunchly Republican, staunchly individualistic, has > lots of rich nutraceutical companies, and is small enough to be > manageable politically. Other possibilities would be Idaho, Montana, > and Wyoming. It certainly would get lots of media coverage and create > a national debate. If you could manage this in one state, it would > serve as an example to people in other states. That's typically the > way this kind of legilation spreads nationally. > > Bob > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board > approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free > discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 To the general public what is/would be the distinction between: 1. A Doctor of Philosophy who advises/lectures on herbal nutrition and dispenses herbal patents 2. A Doctor of Chiropractic who inserts needles and dispenses herbal patent 3. A Doctor of Oriental Medicine who inserts needles and dispenses herbal patent 4. A Doctor of Medicine who inserts needles and dispenses herbal patent Reality I: the one that is insurance re-imbursable is the " real " doctor. Reality II: the word " Doctor " is a trade-mark as is all words in the " Disease " category. Physician as well as any other terms attempting to identify oneself as a " doctor " fall into the trade mark. Interesting that those who used leeches in their healing not so long ago are no longer considered " leeches " but now called " doctors " . Of course now only Doctors TM can use leeches. Every day WE who insert needles and dispenses herbal patent the public does take notice. Organizations are excellent to present a unified front - an image. But it is obvious WE have no united front (image) to offer. The Public is watching. Ed Kasper LAc. Santa Cruz, CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 HI Bob, Don't forget Alaska, We have a large Republican constituent and probably the largest number of independent groups in the US. Rozz Bob Flaws wrote: > > Chris, > > If it were ever possible, now is the time with a Republican majority > in control of both houses of Congress as well as a Republican Prez and > a soon-to-be staunchly conservative Supreme Court. As we all know, a > majority of Americans make regular use of some kind of CAM, and, more > importantly, where there's a will, there's a way. None of my > generation ever thought we'd see the fall of the Berlin Wall or the > collapse of the USSR. Yet, these both occurred relatively suddenly > when the time was ripe. > > The biggest obstacle to this radical kind of sea change are those > small-minded individuals who say it can't be done. As the old saw > goes, " Whether you say you can or you can't, you're right. " The course > of history is studded with examples of ideas which were considered > fantasy that later turned out to be pivotal turning points in human > culture and development. As another saying goes, " The wise man's > wisdom is folly to the fool. " > > In any case, I have been making this suggestion (in print and in > person) for 10 years or more. On this issue, the paternalistic Dems > are actually our enemies. Strange, eh? > > If you want to push this forward, one possible way is contacting your > state (not federal) Republican legislators as well as your local > Libertarian Party. At the same time, try to create a coalition of all > the state associations of CAM practitioners. The Medical Practices > Acts are state laws. If even one could be repealed, this might create > a domino effect. We'd have to analyze and pick the right state. Utah > perhaps. It's staunchly Republican, staunchly individualistic, has > lots of rich nutraceutical companies, and is small enough to be > manageable politically. Other possibilities would be Idaho, Montana, > and Wyoming. It certainly would get lots of media coverage and create > a national debate. If you could manage this in one state, it would > serve as an example to people in other states. That's typically the > way this kind of legilation spreads nationally. > > Bob Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 In a message dated 12/8/2004 1:29:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, eddy writes: The Public is watching. Ed Kasper LAc. Santa Cruz, CA That is a nice little catch phrase. " The pubic is watching " . But,,,,, I think little is farther from the truth. The public couldn't care less what we are called. They believe acupuncture works and want it. From a Chiro, Dr. Ap, or anyone else they have confidence in. It's a people business. Not title business. Please get off this title thing. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 In a message dated 12/7/04 11:45:22 AM, naturaldoc1 writes: > Our profession has been unstable for a long time. > It is now manifesting this as more outside pressure is being put upon us, by > various governmental influences. We have no national standard, please do > not say NCCAOM is a standard, I mean at the legislative level. Second, we > missed the boat years ago by not making first primary professional doctorate > the standard. Our predecessors, who did not like politics, chose for us a > lower road with legislation. As a result, look what we have today, a mess. > The current level of training is adequate for our profession to be a doctor. > Every other profession started as a doctorate and then increased its educational level. We did it backward, perhaps because we wanted to be barefoot doctors, saving the public with a cursory education in the beginning, but now that thinking has screwed us into having the longest Master's level programs of any profession, equivalent to most doctoral programs. It was a big topic of discussion, and the wrong people won. Oops! DAVE Molony David Molony 101 Bridge Street Catasauqua, PA 18032 Phone (610)264-2755 Fax (610) 264-7292 **********Confidentiality Notice ********** This electronic transmission and any attached documents or other writings are confidential and are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) identified above. This message may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure under applicable law, including the FTC Safeguard Rule and U.S.-EU Safe Harbor Principles. If you are the intended recipient, you are responsible for establishing appropriate safeguards to maintain data integrity and security. If the receiver of this information is not the intended recipient, or the employee, or agent responsible for delivering the information to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, reading, dissemination, distribution, copying or storage of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender by return email and delete the electronic transmission, including all attachments from your system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Nicely worded. By the way, doctor can be used to mean a caregiver as in the olden days or in reference to an educational degree. Either way, the public still wants to have its providers as doctor or physician. There are many times that patients have used this title in addressing myself. The way the legislators and payers look at us as if we are PT or MT. These two groups are considered technicians and we are too for as long as we allow other political forces to control us. Your united front is an excellent idea. We need to push for stronger educational standards, consistent state laws for practice, insurance reimbursement for all and a title that indicates to the public that we are the professionals of TCM/OM. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac On 12/8/04 12:20 PM, " Ed Kasper LAc " <eddy wrote: > To the general public what is/would be the distinction between: > > 1. A Doctor of Philosophy who advises/lectures on herbal nutrition and > dispenses herbal patents > 2. A Doctor of Chiropractic who inserts needles and dispenses herbal patent > 3. A Doctor of Oriental Medicine who inserts needles and dispenses herbal > patent > 4. A Doctor of Medicine who inserts needles and dispenses herbal patent > > Reality I: the one that is insurance re-imbursable is the " real " doctor. > Reality II: the word " Doctor " is a trade-mark as is all words in the > " Disease " category. > Physician as well as any other terms attempting to identify oneself as a > " doctor " fall into the trade mark. > > Interesting that those who used leeches in their healing not so long ago are > no longer considered " leeches " but now called " doctors " . Of course now > only Doctors TM can use leeches. > > Every day WE who insert needles and dispenses herbal patent the public does > take notice. > Organizations are excellent to present a unified front - an image. But it is > obvious WE have no united front (image) to offer. > > The Public is watching. > > Ed Kasper LAc. Santa Cruz, CA > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board > approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free > discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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